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Love Spells and Rape

  
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
19:49 / 26.10.03
I've been mulling this one over for a while, but velvetvandal's thread on the ethics of cursing the opposite sex and the recent spurt of rape related threads in the Headshop got me thinking about it again.
Essentially:
Rape= non-consentual sex, whether it's done at knife-point or barbituates in drinks. Either way the victim is unable to make a choice about whether they have intercourse with the rapist.
Love Spells= By which I am talking about those targeted at specific people, not just enchantments to get lucky. What I'm talking about is actively interfering with somebody's right to say yes or no to a relationship/sex whatever by Magickal means. The target feels as though the romantic thoughts are their own when they were actually 'implanted'.
Of course, depending on the Mage's skill a 'Love Spell' could be anything from an 'empty-handed gesture' that causes supermodels to fall at his/her feet or the aetheric equivilant of eating Oysters on a date.
Have any 'lithers been the target (or victim?) of Love Spells? If so: did you feel violated or take it as a compliment that somebody would go to such lengths to win your affections?
 
 
The Falcon
21:27 / 26.10.03
I presume you'd have to have been told? I certainly couldn't tell otherwise, but I'm hardly an accomplished magickal practitioner.

Magick used to attract a specific love... you'd have to ask whether magick is an external to the individual performing it, or simply an extension, like charisma. Or vice versa, the magickian separate from the spell. And the recipient, obviously. Different disciplines will obviously vary in their ontology. It's certainly easy enough to construct a metaphysical case for rape if you combine the perspectives of and belief in materialism, individualism and magick.

Also, in the words of Baby D - what is love?
 
 
phooka73
22:32 / 26.10.03
Michael Harner in his book "The Way of the Shaman" discusses the ethics of doing "magick" on / for other people. His stance and I tend to agree with him, though I have not thought of every possibility, is that you must have the permission of the person before you use "magick" on them.

(I put "magick" in quotes because he does not use this term.)
 
 
angelvanilla
07:17 / 27.10.03
I feel that yes it is. Casting any spell at a person is an attack on that person.

Casting a spell on yourself to make yourself more desirable isn't.
 
 
Quantum
08:33 / 27.10.03
'Casting any spell at a person is an attack on that person'
Even a blessing? Or other beneficial effects?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
08:36 / 27.10.03
Any belief that a love spell, targetted at a specific person, equals rape is underlied by the belief that love spells work and I think this is rather far fetched. Love spells are on the whole rather unsubtle, heavy handed pieces of work and they're usually born out of desparation. Very little magic(k) works when fuelled by that particular emotion and I very much doubt that a love spell would. In my mind such a spell would have to be intricate, specialised and precise and very few people can pull that off when in the state that you'd have to be in to actually conceive of doing such a thing in the first place. On top of all of this I don't think magic(k), or at least the kind that I practice can turn someone's mind. It is more about emphasis and elaboration of the things that already exist. In short, I don't think it's possible to create a rape situation through use of magic(k) alone.

As for casting a spell on yourself to make you more desirable... that rather reeks of insecurity doesn't it? I mean, wouldn't you rather someone wanted you as the person you are and always will be?
 
 
illmatic
08:45 / 27.10.03
You'll find a huge heavyweight arguement concerning this matter on this thread.
 
 
penitentvandal
09:13 / 27.10.03
Love spells are always a massive grey area, both in terms of morals and effectiveness. Certainly it's a lot harder to target a specific person, for the reasons Anna outlines; more general spells to ensure that one gets a bit more action do tend to work, though, in my experience.

Would it be rape? I dunno. But I do know that, if I cast a deliberate working to make, say, Janine from accounts want to get off with me, I'd feel a total sleazebag. Same argument I use against drug-rape, really: if you're so sad you have to resort to drugging people into a comatose state so you can sleep with them, you shouldn't be shagging anyone, not even a farmyard animal. And if you're so sad that all you can think of to do with the subtlest force in the universe is to cop off with Janine from accounts, then you should have your wand taken off you, in both a real and an allegorical sense.

Can someone get me a mounting stool? I seem to be having trouble getting off this horse...It's very high...
 
 
Zhi
12:28 / 27.10.03
there is an intresting bit in the much underrated satanic bible regarding spells that are based on achieving a physical desire - i recommend you look it up. What is intresting about it is that it dosn't focus on the idea of 'Love'where most wiccan/magic texts focus on this avoiding the issue of the messy stuff.

ask your self what do you mean by love - where do your ideas about love come from - are you really prepared for the responsibility that someone being in 'love' with you would entail?
( i know this thread is about the a theoretical love spell and the ethics thereof but i shall write as if to some one who is considering doing it...)
I think what is intresting he is that the magic is aimed at getting a physical deire satisfied - ie instead of it being a love spell it is really a sex spell.
Now does a sex spell constitute an act of rape - because now we are talking plainly about an act of magic geared towards physical sex with some one. If we have influenced them to have sex with us against their will ( highly unlikly i might add- even for the most 'powerful' mage - let alone the average nerdy wantabe magician who cant even talk to a member of the opposite {or even the same} sex)

How about this as another angle on it - if you do a spell in order to have it off with the object of your desire and joy of joys you actually get to do the filthy business - how would you then feel about this - did they have sex with you because they wanted to, because they found you atractive - or was it merely because you are an ugly mut that managed to coerce them by means of magic? (rather than by knife point/drugs/charisma/alcohle etc.)
Of course this later course might be enjoyable due to the sense of power involved but i will say that it is also a two edge sword ( am i now talking from experience i ask myself......) because underlying that sense of power will be an equal sense of self loathing ( oh the whily ways of the dark substance we call the cosmos.)

None of which of course brings us any closer to the issue of magical rape.

others on this thread have suggested that we should not do any magik that will be directed towards others - but if i do magic - say to get a job does that not implie that i have stopped someone else from getting that job - there by screwing up thier life instead of my own?
any act of magic is going to tinker with the universe in unknown ways the point is i guess what are you prepared to take responsibility for - what are you prepared to not take responsibility for and in what ways are you going to turn a blind eye to the consequences of your actions.

hmmm,
hail any big powerful dark this you care to mention,

titus.
 
 
Quantum
13:03 / 27.10.03
Anna- I don't think it's possible to create a rape situation through use of magic(k) alone.
I agree, it's a different kettle of fish. On the other hand love spells do work, and have been the bread and butter of cunning folk for thousands of years. What you say about desperation is true, but wouldn't apply if you're doing the spell for someone else.

The other thread (see Illmatic's link) moved toward general magickal ethics, but the issue of love spells comes up a lot here, because it's what people want. People (especially at first) want magick to get Sex, Money and Power, and they always will. That's what people care about.
 
  
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