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Is our approach to magick outdated?

 
  

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eeoam
10:43 / 20.10.03
We often use premodern concepts and language when practicing and discussing magick (including using the word 'magick'). Not only does this alienate rationals, it may also limit our understanding of this paradigm.
Could it be time we evolved magick beyond its premodern roots?
 
 
ciarconn
13:30 / 20.10.03
Yes, it would be useful to change the base concepts of our practices, and to create even new words to name what we do. The creation of new concepts and words, and the constant use of them in a community, would probably make it easier to change reality.
 
 
Person
15:27 / 20.10.03
You want modern magick that the rationals eat up like candy? Wander over to the self-help section; you'll find a wall of tomes, most of them completely unsupported by scientific validation, but bought, believed and followed by thousands (or millions).

People will buy a lot when you tell them what they want to hear, and give them simple ways to get where they want to go. It's a black-box form of magick, but people like black boxes; less to have to worry about believing in...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:17 / 20.10.03
Person: People will buy a lot when you tell them what they want to hear, and give them simple ways to get where they want to go.

Ker-CHINNGGG! But the content of these books isn't rational, nor is the act of buying them. It's just rationalization. If you're truly rational you either write off all magick completely (including self-help manuals) as superstition, or you find a way to work with it inside a rational framework.
 
 
pachinko droog
19:01 / 20.10.03
Personally, I really enjoy folks' reinterpretative efforts. That thread a while back on "Organic Time" I found to be very worthwhile, along with the "magickal deconstructions" of The Invisibles and X-Men.

Come to think of it, the whole idea of Comics + Magick is intriguing. I'd love to see more of that here, from theorizing and commentary to actual practice.
 
 
EvskiG
20:01 / 20.10.03
I think the traditional labels of magic are part of its appeal.

On one hand, you can learn MAGICK (with a "k" for extra eldrichness). Learn kaballah, draw pentacles in the air while intoning barbarous names, and conduct rituals complete with robes, swords and incense.

On the other hand, you can learn some applied psychology. Discipline your mind by memorizing correspondences, practice achieving heightened mental states through visualization, vocalization and movement, and construct psychodrama sessions that use mnemonics to suggest certain goals to your unconscious mind.

The former sounds a lot more fun/scary/interesting than the latter.
 
 
LVX23
05:23 / 21.10.03
A large part of the power resident in traditional magickal systems is the strength of their memes. These channels run deep, furrowed over hundreds if not thousands of years of use. The ongoing use of specific sigils, alphabets, glyphs, invocations, deities, though-forms, etc is what makes the systems so powerful. The concepts have evolved into archetypes. Modern systems, for what they gain in creativity and exploration, are often lacking in depth due to limited use and embryonic mythology.

While magick is ostensibly an individualist practice, it's success is based on a strong history of use and interpretation, fleshing out the mythic universe in which it resides.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
05:49 / 21.10.03
Ah, but as a counterpoint, LVX23: this century, most of us haven't been as immersed in the archetypes you mention--we're steeped in psychology and neurology and Better Living Through Science. So won't an apparently scientific method of brain reprogramming work better for a modern?
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
06:14 / 21.10.03
I don't think we can change magick. All we can do is change what we use to symbolize it. We can make new metaphors. I am all for this.
 
 
eeoam
08:15 / 21.10.03
You say we cannot change magick, Nietzsch. As something of an aside, I'm curious, how exactly do you define magick?
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
13:27 / 21.10.03
Magick is just another attempt to define. We can't change magick because the territory that map refers to is real and beyond the realm of maps but we can change our maps and look at it a different way.
 
 
ciarconn
13:42 / 21.10.03
I don’t think it´s about changing magick, it´s about changing the way we understand magick. The old ways are sometimes too circunvoluted and unnecessarily complicated. it´s not about creating a sweetened and diluted magick, it´s about doing it more directly.
 
 
Seth
16:27 / 21.10.03
How's this?

Instead of *magick* we'll call it doin' stuff.

Instead of the names of individual *gods* and *godesses* we'll use dudes.

When the church tries to keep up to date like this you get stuff like the World Wide Message Tribe and NGM. Y'know, the kind of Christians who call the Holy Spirit *energy* in their trendy cheesy house tracks.

I'm off to do stuff with some dudes.
 
 
EE
18:51 / 21.10.03
I don’t think it´s about changing magick, it´s about changing the way we understand magick. The old ways are sometimes too circunvoluted and unnecessarily complicated. it´s not about creating a sweetened and diluted magick, it´s about doing it more directly.

Agreed. If "magick" is altering reality (be it your own or the one you're sharing with everybody) through will, then really, what's the point of talking about "changing" anything about it. All that we can change are our own ways of understanding and interacting. You're not going to have much fun if you're not willing to occasionally upgrade your own "path" to suit newer, more complex ideas. Maybe this means getting rid of some obsolete names, but really, do you need them? Things grow old and die. They'll be back.

I guessing most of you have come to this same conclusion.
 
 
EE
18:58 / 21.10.03
Of course, we could talk about enacting major changes in even the definition of magick I used. That'd kinda be a fun experiment. Instead of outright altering, we could try flowing. But that's really another conversation.
 
 
LVX23
04:40 / 22.10.03
Could it be time we evolved magick beyond its premodern roots?

I suppose Chaos Magick has been trying to do this ofr decades.

eeoam, could you expand a bit on your original idea?
 
 
Person
06:19 / 22.10.03
MordantCarnival:inyourdreams: See, I go for the idea that "rational" boils down to the "black box" you decide to trust. All of us rely on incomplete information in some way or another; as Perfect Tommy said, we've got plenty of new shiny black boxes like science (no matter how inexact some fields may be at this time)to fill in the blanks, thus allowing faith in "rationality". People buy into pseudo-psych often due to trust in the printed word or the person spouting it.

I've yet to find any real evidence that people are rational, or at least logical. One can say "I follow causality and nothing else", but ultimately, there's some level which you really can't be sure what's on the inside of a system. Besides, a truly rational person might see the utility in believing in something if it helps them. Random thoughts...
 
 
Seth
07:53 / 22.10.03
Well, let's focus group these changes then people! How does it feel to be a part of the demographic we're trying to reach - we're not just the marketing department, we're clients, too!

We need a new brand! A new ideology, new product mythology. Something that'll go for that psychology dollar, something that'll appeal to the pseudo-scientist. Maybe a dash of quantum physics (that always sells!), can we contact this Dawkins guy (he's just so hot right now!)? But let's not alienate the self help market, maybe we could go for the higher end, let's add about 15% NLP to this mix. C'mon people, we need a really outrageous paradigm!

And a new name! Something catchy, something audacious, something that'll distance ourselves from those weirdy-beardy guys in robes in all those dusty old bookshops. Something that shouts at you, captivates you... how 'bout Mindjoy? We'll call the book Mindjoy: A Quantum Path to Memetic Wellbeingness and Neurowholeness! The tagline... Embiggening Your Innerness and Exploding Your Worldmap Paradigms! Now can we come up with a logo?

Hey presto! Opal Fruit becomes Starburst!
 
 
illmatic
08:37 / 22.10.03
Dude, that's f****in hilarous. Can't be bothered to think of anything too wiity right now.

This mornings arbitary and dismissive reaction is - I think that actually getting on and doing it is more important for me than what I call it. Though I suppose I'm sounding a bit like (ex-poster) Mike there...
 
 
eeoam
09:26 / 22.10.03
LVX13, I'm thinking in terms of for example our interpretation of certain magickal phenomena. When we do magick, are we tapping into subconscious actuals or realizing superconscious potentials or both? And how can we learn to tell the difference?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:41 / 22.10.03
The old ways are sometimes too circunvoluted and unnecessarily complicated. it´s not about creating a sweetened and diluted magick, it´s about doing it more directly

Maybe the question should be rephrased slightly: 'is our approach to magick too influenced by the victorian occult revival?'

I tend to think that a lot of our perspectives and approaches to magick are far far more conditioned by the victorian occultists' ideas about magic than we would care to admit. Even chaos magic, which on the surface of things attempts to throw out all the pomp and circumstance of that era, still tends to adopt a lot of its ideological framework. You could say that Liber Null is like a stripped down version of a Golden Dawn style magical curriculum, for instance.

Victoriana even colours the way we consider other forms of magic. When we think of the Egyptian pantheon we tend to imagine the romantic victorian style re-imagining of that period, possibly with Liz Taylor in Cleopatra garb. Even things like hoary old grimoire based magic tend to come to us via translations done by the likes of Crowley and Mathers.

I'm not advocating that we just pretend that the Victorian era of magic never happened or completely throw out all of these people's work and ideas. But I do think it's worth trying to be aware of the huge influence that the ideas of this period have had on how we tend to operate.

I think a lot of what we might consider 'old' or 'outdated' approaches to magic are actually fairly recent, less than two hundred years old for the most part. I always like to situate Crowley with the modernists, and I think that a lot of his developments in magic can be directly compared to what writers like James Joyce and artists like Picasso were doing in the same period. If you look at the Book of Thoth, it works as a beautiful peice of modernist art as much as it works as a tarot deck.

I think what we're experiencing now in 'the occult world' is the same sort of boredom and dissatisfaction with the post-modernism of chaos magic, that the wider culture is feeling towards post-modern novels and art. There's a sort of vague 'where do we go from here?' thing going on that I think has been building, culturally, for quite a few years. Maybe it's just me, I dunno. I find post-modernism a bit annoying, like a really good joke that you've heard so many times that it begins to grate.

But really, when you look back further than the magic of the Victorian era and its immediate masonic parents, and if you look at the magical systems of other cultures that haven't been so influenced by what we now think of as the 'western tradition' - you start to get stuff that is actually incredibly direct and uncluttered. I think that all magic works along 'shamanic' principles to one extent or another, and all that really changes is the way we talk about it and conceptualise it.
 
 
Sobek
17:30 / 22.10.03

I have used NLP technology and terminology as intentional Magick for some time, as well as practices from Huna and pirated "Operating Thetan" tech/jargon/ideas from Scientology. Plus similar things that I have started to develop on my own along those lines.

But sometimes I still want to do full-blown, arcane, heathenish *RITUALS* with lots of props. Just because it is *FUN*.

(And when you *merge* the two...heh...wow.)
 
 
Ria
18:11 / 22.10.03
Gypsy Lantern, Liber Null describes the curiciluum of one school. it does not describe/encompass the totality of CM.
 
 
cusm
18:40 / 22.10.03
I wonder if all the New Age fluff isn't just exactly what this thread is suggesting: new and modern looks at magick with up to date ideas and concepts. Granted, it should be grounded in detail, but the approach of "energy", angels, positive thinking, and the freedom to make up your own systems if you feel the need pervade the modern approach. The Chaos schools have done their job, traditionalism has been kicked over in place of evolution. Information density and communication hastend the comparative work that so shined in Crowley, Blavatski, Campbel, and Frazer's writings. Parallels are seen among the shamanic practices of Voodoo, Norse, and Native American ways. Suburban witches throw cards to discover the best way to channel Reiki into their Inner Christ Light to become their own Buddah. It all happens at once, its all the same, and none of it is necessary. That's modern magick. Hold it all up together, see what its doing, explain it in some psychology, tantalize with quantum possibility, and you have the essence of magick in this era.

But we already know this.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
19:10 / 22.10.03
Gypsy Lantern, Liber Null describes the curiciluum of one school. it does not describe/encompass the totality of CM.

Yeah, I know - I was just giving Liber Null as an example to illustrate what I'm getting at. No two chaos magicians are ever going to agree on what chaos magic 'is' anyway, and that's kind of the point. If you're suggesting that chaos magic is in no way influenced by victorian occultism, then persuade me. None of this is set in stone for me, it's just the way I'm calling it.
 
 
Salamander
01:50 / 23.10.03
As I see it, we coan only modernize our tools and words, the principles will remain the same. A friend suggested this thing to me a while back, modernizing magick. But mostly al he could think of is modernizing tools and words. Look at a screen randomly generating fractals, look at the sky randomly generating clouds, same effect and priciple for divination, different tools. All magick is basically the same. The differances we percieve are in our heads, the archaicness and modernity, just in our heads. Did any of that make sense? I'm tired.
 
 
Quantum
12:55 / 23.10.03
Is our approach to magic outdated? I don't think so. People have been trying to 'modernise' it since the Victorians at least. Come to think of it, the state of modern magic is probably caused by the obsessive need to customise that we (here at the beginning of the 21st century) often have.
The up to date ideas and concepts we are using are more meta-magic, how different traditions relate etc. In the old days it was 'We're right everyone else is wrong' now we're more 'Everybody's right'.

(Hermes Nuclear has a point, the terms and tools may change but the magic stays the same)

I disagree with Seth, Mindjoy: A Quantum Path to Memetic Wellbeingness and Neurowholeness! (Embiggening Your Innerness and Exploding Your Worldmap Paradigms) is just so twentieth century, we need NEW NEW NEW! So-called 'Mindjoy' is just doin' stuff with dudes repackaged with a spritzy logo- NEOSOULFOOD is the next big thing, fresh and exciting! No dusty old Mindjoy books, no books at all- just reality-warping meta-post-postmodern techniques downloaded directly into your neural web by all new invisible Nanite swarms!
Available after the 2012 Beta testing process, or NOW to those who subscribe to our Timewave Zero temporal manipulation package!
 
 
Colonel Kadmon
21:22 / 03.11.03
> Mindjoy: A Quantum Path to Memetic Wellbeingness and Neurowholeness! The tagline... Embiggening Your Innerness and Exploding Your Worldmap Paradigms! Now can we come up with a logo?

Seth - do you work in advertising? And that's not a dig... because aren't advertising and NLP precisely what we're talking about? New forms of Magick weilding the power to change that external reality through an act of individual will?
 
 
angelvanilla
04:10 / 04.11.03
^oh yes, yes, yes!^ Words and power and all that.

Perhaps we are best to associate these "pre-modern" symbols with "modern" ones, sure.

A "truly rational being" is only myth and ideal. "Irrational" and "rational" are categories of human construction, which implies various degrees of arbitrary and social relative value and definition.

A "magician" defines hir own categories.
 
 
Seth
14:32 / 04.11.03
Yes, Adam. I'm a results-oriented businessmage working in the marketing department of a multi-national Urine Extraction corporation. Paradigm busting is my stock-in-trade.
 
 
cusm
15:20 / 04.11.03
So you take the piss for a living then?
 
 
AmericanMagus
19:21 / 04.11.03
I personally feel it is time to update all of our systems and understandings to reflect current awareness. An adapted system of English Qabalah is a start. Currently there are two published versions one of which I developed. Also the Zodiac calendars in EMBARRASSINGLY (is that a word?) outdated. It makes us look like fools really. I have copyrighted an updated calendar to that should be implemented immediately. Religion is still in the Dark Ages as a whole..... time for change I say
 
 
Seth
04:53 / 05.11.03
"3,000 years of beautiful tradition, you're Goddamn right I'm living in the past!"
 
 
illmatic
08:37 / 05.11.03
American Magus: Do you mean the way the Zodiac as used in Western astrology is out of sync with the actual position of the stars? If so, you might find sidereal astrology of interest, Cyril Fagan and Rupert Gleadow were the two people wo tried to get it off the ground in the West. I can't say how well it works from my own experience though - I'm not that hot at astrology, just thought I'd mention it. The astrology of India also rests on a sidereal Zodiac.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:26 / 05.11.03
How is English Qabalah or whatever going to help breed new approaches to magick then? Yet another way of spending inordinate amounts of time arguing over the esoteric significance of "Arsebiscuits". Can someone give me a concrete, practical example of how 'new' explanations of magic are better than 'pre-modern' ones?
 
  

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