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Moderator POVs

We're The Great Old Ones Now

15:21 / 15.10.03

In all the excitement, I haven't asked Moderators for their feelings. So I am now. You're not a monolith, you're a diverse bunch. You probably each feel differently about the state of play here on the board. You've had a number of eggs thrown at you recently, so respond, if you will. Please remember, though, that while you know how moderation works because you do it, and you see all the drab crap every time you log in, not everyone has a clue how it goes, even now.

Or you can stay out of it. I won't be offended.

Tryphena Absent

15:27 / 15.10.03

Don't you think this is a little bit late?

We're The Great Old Ones Now

15:59 / 15.10.03

No.

Like it or not, Moderators are a power group - even if it is a diffuse, un-self-interested kind of power. The cross-over with high-volume posters has allowed the rise of a perception of Mods as a privileged group - an aristocracy. I hope that perception is now somewhat allayed. Until it had been, however, giving mods an arena in which to express themselves would have appeared redundant and confirmed the impression that they were More Equal Than Others.

Now, on the other hand, I think it might be useful to show how it feels to be on the other side of the fence.

Tryphena Absent

19:28 / 15.10.03

Oh, so you decided that you were happy to perpetuate the notion that the moderator's are a power group rather than the janitors of this board despite the fact that you've been one?

I think that speaks volumes about the board, what we can expect from the posters and their attitude towards constructing a hierachy because I, for one, think that it's all in people's heads. If anyone has power it's not the moderators but the people who are high volume posters. I happen to be of the opinion that taking on moderation duties has changed nothing about my role here. I retain precisely the same amount of power. Please, explain to me why the only names of moderators that come up in accusatory conversation are those that also have a distinct posting style and have or do post a lot.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

19:57 / 15.10.03

Anna:

Um, no.

Moderators are a 'power group' because they have powers which others don't. That they are not rulers is contingent upon their good behaviour and ultimately Tom's control of the board. That's an entirely different question.

Now, if you think I've done something wrong in starting this thread, that's another question. If you think I was wrong to ask the questions I have, I'm willing to talk about that. You seem to be extremely pissed off with me in particular. But I'm not perpetuating a myth, at all. I'm trying to open things up so that myths can't exist any more.

Incidentally, a janitor is a very good comparison. They have keys which others don't and access to areas and information others can't reach. Just because it's a low-status job in the real world, that doesn't mean it isn't a potentially powerful position.

I have actually already said that I believe the reason moderators took so much flak was the overlap between high-volume posters and moderators. It's inevitable, given that moderators are likely to be people Tom is happy leaving the keys with, that they'll be drawn from a pool of more frequent posters.

As to it "all being in people's heads" - if you mean being scared to post for fear of being assailed - that was where I started, too. And then I got nervous enough to ask, and now I know that it's not. I don't believe that we've had a single demonstrable case of misuse of moderation power by anyone still in that position - so that's in people's heads, up to a point. Which doesn't mean that the board doesn't need to deal with it, of course.

I don't really understand your final question, so if you want me to answer it, you'll have to clarify.

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

02:59 / 16.10.03

I see myself as a bit of a janitor, and, when I have the time and energy, someone who gets conversations started, tries to keep them on track and thinks up interesting things to talk about.

I fail at most of that because message boards are not as big a part of my life this year as they have been, due to work and creative stuff.

But that's how I see it.

And I wish I was a part of the power elite. Do they get a key to the cool washroom?

06:52 / 16.10.03

I can see two threads in here already that specifically call for moderators to post their POVs (Jade's "How do you moderate - ending the gap" and Nick's "Step on Up" [with topic abstract "Moderation - goat or grail?"]). Maybe we should amalgamate them or something.

(I say "we", I mean "you lot who mod in the Policy", obviously.)

Regrettable Juvenilia

07:31 / 16.10.03

Here's my point of view (or "what I feel, what I think"): in the last 24 hours I've started the process of dealing with what I perceived as an obvious troll, been persuaded that I'm jumping the gun, took a step back and watched the trolling continue, and NOW I'm getting PMs asking why the Moderators haven't taken care of the obvious troll yet...

This job is hard enough without the constant attempts to hold a public enquiry on your part, Nick. As two people above have pointed out, Moderators have made it perfectly clear what they feel, what they think, in several other threads. Some of this has been in threads started specifically by this purpose (but perhaps not by you - gosh!), some of it has been in threads started by you (but perhaps they did not stick to your exact remit - crikey!) - and for crying out loud, personally I thought Tom summed it all up and gave the best last word on the subject with the 'once and future board' thread - whatever, the point is we did not need ANOTHER thread about it. These threads of yours are becoming increasingly superfluous, and increasingly recognised as such by everyone here.

08:20 / 16.10.03

Moderator note: this post deleted as the suit belongs to a known troll.

08:32 / 16.10.03

Fol de rol. Last 48 hours or so...

As an ex-Moderator, can I ask whether there's been a change in policy regarding the general approach to Andrew's encopretic contributions, or whether the relative ease with which one can 'cloak' or reroute IP addresses has clouded the issue of recognition? He may be attempting more subtlety, but it doesn't take Quantico to spot an eye-gougingly obvious posting style/pattern taking shape. The more he posts, the more doubt is eliminated that yep, it's the familiar Welshman in Shaft's clothing.

Perhaps 'The Knowledge: FAQ' needs updating...

We're The Great Old Ones Now

08:41 / 16.10.03

Fly:

I'm sorry, you're wrong.

It may be that this thread is superfluous - which would be great, actually - but the whole thing has been worthwhile. You obviously don't get PMs saying "thanks for doing this, I don't usually feel able to post for fear of xyz being vile to me", largely because, I imagine, you have made it clear that you find the idea laughable and contemptible.

Yes, maybe some of those potential posters need to get a thicker skin - but if that's the case, why do we fly into such turmoil over nowthink using bad words? Bitch? Ho? They're about contempt, right? We want Barbelith to be enough of a safe space that we can avoid that stuff. But God forbid anyone should be offended by mere personal mockery. That's just wimpish.

As to 'Public Inquiry' - no. A public enquiry is about establishing guilt and showing everyone all the evidence. I've tried to make this about showing that there are radically different perceptions of how the board operates (though I believe they're closer together now).

Whatever. If this thread's pointless, no one has to post in it. I'm going to leave it. In that case, it'll die, and I won't be starting any more on this topic. Better to have one too many than one too few, though.

Tryphena Absent

08:42 / 16.10.03

Bravo Ganesh, I was wondering when someone would say that. Race, misogyny, switched posting styles?

Nick... I disagree with you. I find this thread patronising, I have a very long post that I can't put up here because it's horrible to you. That's all I'm going to say.

09:45 / 16.10.03

Nick: again, you seem to be mistaking your opinion for fact. You may feel the whole thing has been worthwhile, but from this moderator's POV all it's done is increase the feeling of them and us, turned the 'faceless, behind the scenes sub-community' thing right back round and smacked us in the face with it - "I've received lots of PMs from people saying that they *are* worried about moderation," is a statement that is completely unhelpful on its own. If you really feel the need to say it then you should tell us where people think we're going wrong, because otherwise it's just one more of those eggs you were talking about.

One thread for moderators, one thread for non-moderators. Yep, that's really going to help to get rid of any perceived divide.

Like Deva says, there are already threads discussing this. I fail to see any requirement for yet another. See also my post to Flowers' moderation log thread.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:08 / 16.10.03

These threads do seem to come ever-closer to "I've got all these people who PM me about how mean this person and this person and this person are...." It's good that you want to champion the dispossessed, Nick, but a starting thread after thread until everyone who moderates and posts is bored into resigning as moderators and leaving the board for fear of another set of third-party complaints that cannot be answer ed since those complaints are not listed beyond vague insinuation is not standard missionary practice.

Could you possibly, for example, number how many people have actually complained to you? Followed perhaps by the text of their complaints, where possible without violating confidentiality and with their consent? I still don't entirely understand why these people were not advised to talk to Tom rather than to an individual member of the board...

Now, more broadly, if people feel they cannot protest, that is unfortunate. However, if their complaints are basically unfounded, then it is not a cripplingly bad thing. If their complaints are founded, then if Barbelith is a board worth being a member of they should perhaps feel able to share them without an Onsler. As I mentioned elsewhere, feeling hard done by can originate from several different possible sources.

Let's look at one of our examples. Toksik felt hard done by, and expressed as much. We communicated, It turned out that he had misremembered one of his core complaints, and was good enough to apologise about that. I have been left with a new respect for and understanding of his feelings, and new information on how he would best not be made to feel uncomfortable again. All done in a pleasantly adult fashion. This seems to be a profitable model.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

13:36 / 17.10.03

Right, I've had it with this. Anna, if you want to post something which is horrible to me, just post it and get it out of your system.

Haus is being by far the most reasonable about his, which I find both unsurprising and utterly scary. I don't want to be the champion of the dispossessed, by the way, I want to find out how the hell they got dispossessed and stop it from happening, but I've hit my saturation point. And no, I'm not getting into what was said. Part of me would love to rub some noses in it, but I made promises, and finally it wouldn't help. You want to know, you'll have to ask them yourself.

There is or was a small minority of people who felt bullied. Right? Here, on Barbelith. Safe space? If you don't find that pretty awful, I don't know what to say.

They felt like the scrawny/ugly/smart kid in the schoolyard. I've been there, and so have many of you. And just like there, it seems no one meant any real harm. And certinaly no one would think of themselves as a bully. I'm scared that it was me. I'm sure it was from time to time. You should be scared that it was you. Instead of which some people seem to feel it's an imaginary problem. "Crybabies" was a term employed recently in another thread.

Well, good. I'm done. I have work, I have a life, and I'm tired.

Tryphena Absent

14:06 / 17.10.03

Look, I don't know how to express this properly without ranting like a wildcat and that's so wrong in a thread like this. So I'm going to take a little of what some of the others have said and quote it instead.

Thank you Mr. Dupre all it's done is increase the feeling of them and us, turned the 'faceless, behind the scenes sub-community' thing right back round and smacked us in the face with it - "I've received lots of PMs from people saying that they *are* worried about moderation," is a statement that is completely unhelpful on its own.

And I feel, reminiscent of all those accusations that are aimed at moderators by the modogs of this world. And so as Mr. Haus says if Barbelith is a board worth being a member of they should perhaps feel able to share them. 'Them' meaning their concerns.

I believe that most of the troubles on this board grow from misunderstanding. Sometimes we're all a little bit rude but that stops when people start to use their heads and it took me a long time to really begin to use mine in the way that barbelith requires. It also took a lot of interaction. So these people you're talking about could be lurkers, small time posters who some of us have offended, anyone at all. We each might have offended someone terribly and never even realised it and not intended it that way and if they'd PM'd we might have known it. It's not working though is it? Because none of us have heard anything because no one has worked for the board, they've worked for themselves and I think you're equally as guilty of this as the rest of us.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

10:09 / 18.10.03

My POV?

Right. As far as I can see, the current bout of hand-wringing was precipitated by the antics of one rather sad person. I'd be prepared to dismiss all this as Barbelith disappearing up its own arse till it looks like a skin bagel-- AGAIN-- if it wasn't for the nagging feeling that there might be something in this supposed "The High Profile Posters were MEAN to me!" gubbins.

The thing of it is though: We don't know. We keep being told that PMs are being received telling tales of drunkeness and cruelty but without any further details. Without additional information-- say, what's actually been said, and about whom-- then there's no way forward.

And the longer this "well, a little birdy told me..." thing goes on, the more likely it is that these supposed concerns are going to be dismissed as random whining, or (rather more sinister) a deliberate and spiteful whispering campaign.

11:17 / 18.10.03

I have - on the whole - nothing but the highest regard for the moderators of Barbelith. They put in more work than everyone else in an attempt to make the board better for both themselves and everyone else. It's not a glamourous job and they do it - for the hugest part - extremely well and without any inking of abuse or complaint. I'm quite comfortable to remind all moderators that they will occasionally find it their responsibility to (sometimes) put the best interests of the board above their own frustrations and irritations - although I know that they know that already. But in return I want to make sure that the rest of the board is reminded of the effort and long-term committment that they put in to making this a better space for everyone.

Having reminded both members of the contract between moderators and members of their responsibilities towards each other I'm also going to suggest that if people do have problems with either a user they can't handle or a moderator they are having trouble with, that they should fundamentally feel free to come to me. I think - on the whole - I'm pretty reasonable, take complaints and anxieties seriously and basically only have the good of the board at heart. That being the case - if anyone does have a significant problem with a moderator and/or a high-profile user that they want to discuss with me, then they should feel free to do so. Send me a private message with your concerns - providing links through to the specific posts concerned and we'll talk about it seriously.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

12:58 / 25.10.03

I'm a bit confused-- I had a PM from another magick mod the other day, explaining that ze'd vetoed a moderation request I'd put in because I hadn't posted in thread to tell everyone I was going to make said moderation request. It was something pretty innocuous, IIRC; an image re-size or somesuch, not a topic move or a lockdown or anything like that.

So I've started flaggind my moderation requests in the Magick with a post in thread, explaining what I'd like to request and inviting the poster to contact me if they don't like the proposed change. I'm more than happy to continue to do this in future, but I'm a bit concerned that such posts will be seen as threadrotty, critical or even dictatorial.

What do you guys think?

Our Lady of The Two Towers

13:26 / 25.10.03

Well, pending the mod in question posting as to why, I can't help but feel it a bit daft. I would only want some sort of mention made in the thread if other people had made mention of it but there was a pressing and good reason to still change the post (such as deleting Knodge-mess).

Less searchable M0rd4nt

09:58 / 27.10.03

Answer came there none.

Okay, maybe it'll help if I explain why I'm asking. I recently moved to amend a topic abstract because the original poster had included a number of special characters, which were showing up as raw code because the board doesn't support HTML anymore. I posted in thread, explaining that I was going to remove the HTML elements and inviting the poster to contact me if they didn't want me to.

I then got deeply hostile and offensive PM (over on another board, I hasten to add) which referred to my "dictating terms" to the poster whose topic I'd amended.

So you see, I really do need clarification on this because its obviously something that people feel strongly about. I can do without any more hatemail at the moment.

Tryphena Absent

10:41 / 27.10.03

It sounds as if the person in question was over-reacting. More to the point you certainly shouldn't be contacted on another board about clearing up some html here. Was it the same person who contacted you through other means or someone else entirely in 'defence' of the poster? This sounds very dodgy... in fact it's exactly the kind of thing that would (irrationally) make me never bother to give an explanation again.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

11:07 / 27.10.03

Well, to be fair, the PM raised other gripes unrelated to this issue, and this person was someone who's felt the sharp edge of my tongue in the past. But I'm concerned that others may feel the same way.

15:12 / 27.10.03

You suggested nothing more than perfectly normal cleanup, MC. I suspect it was their other issues just finding an excuse for an outlet rather than any misstepping on your part.

18:58 / 27.10.03

Agreed.

ONLY NICE THINGS

23:38 / 27.10.03

Gosh. Is that person by any chance a chum of somebody recently shut out of Barbelith for trolling who frequented the Magick? I'm just guessing...

10:57 / 28.10.03

I don't think it's worth disrupting a thread with posts about micro-adjustments like resizing in general, and specifically not when it's obviously it's an excuse to attack.
Mordant was right not to bother, I agree.

My (quiet) moderator voice says 'What?'. Why should we spend more time on justifying and discussing minor changes to the board than actually doing them? It seems like mods spend more time protesting they're (sorry, 'we're') not a power elite than actually moderating.