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Reintroducing Stop and Search

11:17 / 07.03.02

the editor of uk black newspaper 'the voice' has stated that the reintroduction of stop and search, scaled back after the macpherson report, would radically reduce gun crime in london.

what do you think? can stop and search ever be done without the police looking racist, bearing in mind the high level of 'black on black' crime? (so not only the perps, but the victims are black)

pointless and uncalled for

11:37 / 07.03.02

I guess that with the proper measures in place then it's possible that this sort of practice could be effective in the prevention of crime and the completion of investigations without a negative social impact or abuse of minorities.

[ 07-03-2002: Message edited by: H ]

11:55 / 07.03.02

What exactly is "stop and search"? Completely random stops? I would definitely not support that.

However, to scale back larger crimes, there is a theory called "Broken Windows" where police crack down on "quality of life crimes" (fare-jumping, vandalism, public drunkenness) etc. in order to create an environement where it looks like breaking even a minor law will get you in trouble. When this scheme was introduced in NYC, it apparently had a secondary effect that many people stopped for these minor offenses either already had warrants out for them for more major offenses or were in possession of illegal weapons or drugs. Some people will claim that this is why it's safer to live in NYC now. Not having lived here in it's crime-ridden days, I can't say that for sure.

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

13:22 / 07.03.02

quote:Originally posted by todd:
What exactly is "stop and search"? Completely random stops?

(As if to a child).

No. Not completely random. That would be silly.

Black people. The Criminal underclass. Black people.

[ 07-03-2002: Message edited by: Tannhauser ]

Jack The Bodiless

13:29 / 07.03.02

And anyone who looks even remotely like they're seeking asylum, the benefits-defrauding, job-stealing bastards. Which would probably include anyone with an accent. Including the Welsh.

In a few years I'll be travelling to Afghanistan seeking asylum from the UK. Guaranteed.

13:31 / 07.03.02

God, it's not quite such an idiot question as you would have it, given (a) I don't live in London (b) Stop N Search could mean a lot of things.

Given that I'm ignorant of the "Macpherson Report" and what it contained, and also ignorant as to what rights Police in the UK have to "Stop" anyone, I don't want to take the knee-jerk reaction that it's all about detaining Black people, or the "criminal underclass."

It could be about the Pakis too.

pointless and uncalled for

13:37 / 07.03.02

Well more along the lines of anyone that the police think are likely to have commited a crime in the past hour.

Statistical evidence indicates that this will include people that fit one or more of the following criteria.

Black
Male
Young
Out later than their own children's bedtime
Wearing gang colours (open to very wide interpretation)
In the wrong area
Near the wrong area
Looking like they don't belong in the right area
Anything more than slightly intoxicated
Looking like they're trying to act like they're not intoxicated or under the influence of controlled substances
The sort of person they don't want involved with their children
Walking past while the cops have nothing better to do
In the possesion of an illegal doughnut stash

15:44 / 07.03.02

h - that's the view i have when i'm in my more cynical moods. my immediate thoughts *are* that stop and search is so open to abuse that it's nearly unworkable. the police *do* need to work - hard - on how to go about this without being racist. but bear in mind that it's part of the black community that's calling for its reintroduction (although i am not aware of where 'the voice' is coming from, politically).

pointless and uncalled for

16:05 / 07.03.02

Having been subject to the stop and search routine I'm a little cynical about some of the times it's been applied.

After it happened a few times I did ask why I was being stopped and was occasionally met with the "oh there's been a break in nearby" line. Now far be it from me to accuse the police of lying but the one time that one of the officers said that there had been a TV stolen seemed a tad silly.

Oh right, it's in my back pocket mate.

I understand that there are valid reasons for stop and search tactics but, appearances should not be a prime consideration without justifiable reason.

16:14 / 07.03.02

"Do you know who I am? I was in Steps..."

pointless and uncalled for

16:16 / 07.03.02

There really should be a good come back involving the word step. Damn you brain, where the hell are you when I need you.

17:26 / 07.03.02

H - Step the fuck off? A suggestion as to comeback, not an offensive comment.

Anyway, Stop and Search. I know quite a few people who have been stopped and searched, often just for looking a little different and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I think that saying this system works if properly executed is to miss the point. The idea of stop and search relies upon prejudice and pre-formed opinions to function.

You aren't going to stop someone who doesn't conform to your idea of a criminal, are you?

And sadly, it seems that most people in authority have an idea of what a criminal looks like. Let's just say they won't be stopping too many 50-year-old white men in suits.

It's interesting that the Voice are getting behind this, as they generally seemed to be very anti-Stop and Search beforehand.

But if the reports I'm hearing on the radio are correct - that this is, a la Operation Trident, being proposed as anti-gun, then doesn't it mean something a bit scary?

Either unarmed police officers are putting themsleves at risk, and could die.

Or armed police officers will be routinely stopping people because, well, 'He looks a bit funny.'

Not a good idea, either way...

00:07 / 08.03.02

the point about unarmed police officers searching for guns did occur to me, and does seem tricky, to say the least!

as is the whole notion. i don't honestly believe it can be reintroduced without the 'walking while black' factor coming into it in a big way.

edited to add this article from the guardian:
www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4368642,00.html

there is also a letter in today's guardian, bemoaning the 'mediocrity' of bands like so solid crew, and reminding people of what rap used to be about (i.e social issues in reagan's america).

[ 08-03-2002: Message edited by: shortfatdyke ]

Regrettable Juvenilia

00:07 / 08.03.02

Are 'stop and search' and 'profiling' just different terms for the same thing in the UK and USA respectively?

(Off topic - whoever wrote that letter to the Guardian just isn't listening to the right rap... and has a very selective memory.)

[ 08-03-2002: Message edited by: Flyboy ]

Morlock - groupie for hire

11:24 / 08.03.02

I think S'n'S could be carried out fairly and effectively, if you get rid of prejudice in both the police and their critics. Which I like to think can be done, with time.

But here and now? No first hand experience, but it doesn't sound like it...

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:21 / 08.03.02

quote:Originally posted by Morlock/1:
I think S'n'S could be carried out fairly and effectively, if you get rid of prejudice in both the police and their critics.

2 questions:

On what basis do you suggest the police base a stop and search policy, that couldn't fall under the definition of "prejudice"? This has been covered fairly thoroughly by several of the posts above, or so I'd have thought...

What "prejudice" on the part of the police's critics needs to be eliminted in order for an effective stop and search policy to be implemented?

13:21 / 08.03.02

How about stop and search based on the theory of phrenology?
We're not arresting you because of your age/gender/colour/class, it's because you have a bumpy head. You bastard criminal, you.

I think it's generally a good idea to stop people whose eyebrows meet too. Shifty types, 'specially the ones with tweezers. They're the really cunning criminals.

Morlock - groupie for hire

15:28 / 08.03.02

Flyboy: Random fishing or based on outside info, depends on what they're trying to achieve. Alright, sounds like I need to do a bit more checking...

As for critics, I'm talking about people who generalise by saying 'the Police' are all racist, and seem to believe there is no reason on earth why a white officer should ever stop a black person. Not aimed at anyone here, BTW. And I'm in no way suggesting the two problems are of equal status, just linked.

18:42 / 11.03.02

as a point of comparison: the stop and search that takes place at airports these days is supposed to be "random." I wear clothes with no metal and am small and female and look white/Western and never get stopped. my tall partner (white and male) whose clothing always sets off the metal detectors always gets stopped...

i'm not sure whether there's still a strongly racial component in airport stops, or if they are so paranoid about it that they're making sure to grab lots of white folks so they can also grab lots of black or Middle Eastern folks, too. Anyone else?

Our Lady of The Two Towers

13:26 / 12.03.02

I don't think S'n'S CAN be unprejudiced, after all even if you believe all police are Dixon of Dock Green then they are still thinking 'that person looks worthy of stopping' no? If it's completely random then the police should surely be doing that already,. it's called policing...

Our Lady of The Two Towers

13:34 / 12.03.02

I don't think S'n'S CAN be unprejudiced, after all even if you believe all police are Dixon of Dock Green then they are still thinking 'that person looks worthy of stopping' no? If it's completely random then the police should surely be doing that already,. it's called policing...

12:34 / 13.03.02

I wuz stopped and sniffed once.

13:17 / 13.03.02

Uh - Bill, is that really you?

13:52 / 13.03.02

<fights temptation to boost the already high Barbieparanoia levels by making a smart-arsed remark>

Yes indeed, fear not, or at least no more than usual, for 'tis I. Er, that was a bit of a rotty comment I'll admit but it's all I could contribute cos I was in a hurry. I was stopped at Vauxhall station in London and they set the sniffer dogs on me. So I guess that I was the victim of some kind of prejudice along the lines of 'hmm, he looks like a junkie'. Which admittedly still contributes virtually nothing to the overall thread. Ho hum.

06:52 / 14.03.02

It seems reasonable that stop and search powers could reduce street crime. If this was the case then I wouldn't mind being stopped and searched. As long as there was a level of accountability.
If I wore clothing that set of an airport metal detector I wouldn't mind being searched and I would understand the reason why.

pointless and uncalled for

15:26 / 27.03.02

Seems worth making note of this article on this thread.

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