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Dude, it's not right to curse girls

 
 
penitentvandal
18:47 / 07.10.03
So there's this bloke whose mate's a ninja, and he's in a bar, and 4 girls start beating up his girlfriend, and so the ninja wades in and Jin Kazamas one of the bitches like it ain't no thing (as I believe you young people say today). And then this bloke starts to wonder about his mate's dubious morality because, y'know, there were 4 of them, but, like, guys aren't supposed to hit girls. So he does what any sane man in need of ethical assistance does, and contacts his local catholic priest. But he's too busy sodomising choirboys, so Our Conflicted Protagonist asks the Barbelith masseev instead. And there is much discussion, including (a) the ethics of slapping vs. punching bitches, (b) which G.I. Joe characters you're allowed to hit, (c) what you do if you get rushed by a female bodybuilder, and (d) a long ramble about steelwelding, during which I switched off because I am approximately 37% gay. Anyway, it set me thinking.

We're magicians. If someone fucks with us, we can curse, bind, or otherwise magickally shaft them. So imagine that we're in Brian the Ninja's situation: one of our ladyfriends is jumped by 4 bee-yatches in a club. What's the protocol? Obviously you act to rescue the girl first: that goes without saying. But the fact does remain that the attackers have done something wrong and, well...I've always thought one of the responsibilities of being able to put curses on people is that occassionally you have to put curses on people. I'm with Granny Weatherwax on that one.

Now, with magicians, gender doesn't come into it (or does it?), but I have to admit that I feel worse hexing non-magical females than non-magical males. (I use the term non-magical in the sense of non-magically-trained, btw, non-magic-user; obviously everyone is magickal to some extent). But is this mere sentimentality, or is it an important moral distinction? Basically: should a male magician ever launch a magickal attack against a non-magickal female, and what factors, if any, ethically distinguish this from physically hitting a girl? Discuss.

(this post has been brought to you by velvetvandal's 101 Ethical Dilemmas for Badass Magi, only $13.99 from all good stockists)
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
19:37 / 07.10.03
VV, how have you been! I've been away from the magick forum waaaaaaaay to long. (And by away I mean I might post something small ever three weeks or so)
What exactly are you planning in the way of a hex? Because that makes a difference between whether you should do it you shouldn't, in my opinion. Gender's not a big issue for me, but it is for some. SO, I guess I'm asking that you explain what you're planning before I comment more.
 
 
Papess
19:38 / 07.10.03
This is NOT a gender issue in the slightest for me.

Gees, I have been magickally stalked, hunted and cursed repeatedly - by men and women!

I know I have been, but how do I get proof? There is little to no evidence for magickal attacks unless the one who casted is honest enough to admit it. Of course, honesty and magick are antonymous for me at the moment seeing as this has been the nature of attack. Hmm another thread...anyway....

My point though, is even for someone of some skill, such as myself, magickal attacks can be quite devastating. For someone with no clue, I am sure it would even be worse, or maybe...possibly...the spell would have less effect on them...perhaps? Then again, some normals are very skilled naturally.

I guess for me I think of it like martial arts - if you have a black belt, why would you feel the need to strike out on the unintiated? If you absolutely have to, maybe it would be better to try and make positive changes for those with closed minds and little training, or simply do a protection spell for yourself. If someone is a mage then it is petty much "you don't bother me, i don't bother you" If you are a mage and you mess with one, knowingly...maybe you shouldn't be too damn surprised when you are slapped with a curse. STOP WHINING..as people are wont to say around Barbe.

I have a huge problem with the deception of magick, but I really haven't comeup with any other way of leveling up as a magician.We attack magickally for evolutionary purposes, to up our skill levels. Magiuckal attack on another is almost a courtesy amongst peers. HOWEVER! I have seen magickal attacks be justified on this basis that have no place in someone's training or they are not ready for it or it was purely a selfish motivation that one is now trying to excuse by using the surreptitious and sometimes subversive nature of magick.

Magick is a state of anarchy. There is no one to police you or run to for help if you need it. (Unless you know some secret handshakes I guess...but, even then...)

It is not so cut and dry, but those are the basics for me.
 
 
FatherDog
13:51 / 08.10.03
"But is this mere sentimentality, or is it an important moral distinction?"

Mere sentimentality.

"Basically: should a male magician ever launch a magickal attack against a non-magickal
female,"


In exactly the same circumstances as a male magician 'should' launch a magical attack against a non-magical male.

"and what factors, if any, ethically distinguish this from physically hitting a girl?"

None whatsoever.
 
 
Quantum
14:46 / 08.10.03
It's not right to curse people (IMHO) but I've no problem binding people. A smack round the chops probably won't stop someone being violent, but a binding to harm none might have a better effect. Kinda passive-aggressive cursing
 
 
LVX23
15:07 / 08.10.03
If someone (i.e. anyone)is physically attacking me or someone I care for, I bloody well won't be standing there trying to draw a sigil in the air chanting runes. You're basically asking to be a magickal punching bag. But to echo Quantum I don't think it's right to curse anyone. I'd sooner fight than hex. At least fighting gives your opponent a chance to defend themselves.
 
 
Vadrice
06:32 / 09.10.03
This is why a proper spar can be instructional and informative (with the proper protective clothing). It teaches one how to totally wail out a big assed bitch ass curse (twice the ass!) without hurting someone.
The magical version of doing a tripple backflip and landing flawlessly on a tree limb, only to swing down and with much OBVIOUSLY COULD HAVE BEEN BUT WASN'T force, tapping lightly on the throat, causing a minor tickle.

Of course, this manner of skill is obviously beyond anyone such as myself, so if I were in such a situation, I'd probably hold off on the cursing for fear of lack of control, either hurting someone unintentionally, or doing absolutly nothing and feeling like a wet hen.
So in all honestly, I would probably just call them all bitches really loudly and drunkenly and then get the bartender to call the cops.
 
 
Sha Jotaro
23:06 / 09.10.03
When it comes to magick, gender dosn't really matter.
Pay attention to your own magickial ethics, however. Cursing should be a last resort in these kind of situations.
 
 
penitentvandal
17:19 / 12.10.03
Interesting opinions...I have to say I was a bit leery of checking in here in case I got flamed for general evilness, but I should have known better.

I should point out that I'm not planning something: I'm a reformed character these days when it comes to magick. I mean, I haven't cursed anyone in years...

Well, alright, a year.

Almost a year.

Well, over six months, anyway. But that's not important.

Nice to see May and Spyder back at it, too. General agreement wrt to the 'binding is better than cursing' stuff as well. Not entirely sure about the 'magickal attack as evolutionary force' argument, tho'; that sounds a bit too 'Magneto was right' to me.

Oh, fuck it, I dunno. It's a grey area, really, isn't it? Which, magickally, is all the better, I s'pose.
 
 
Papess
22:16 / 12.10.03
"Nice to see May and Spyder back at it, too. "

Err...back at what? I haven't cursed anyone in years! But I certainly don't condemn anyone who feels they have tried other methods and are still unable to change a situation that is bad for them or loved ones. I cannot judge someone who protects themselves or loved ones, even with a curse. However, I am very much in agreement with this:

"binding is better than cursing"

Yes, complete agreement. Even protection spells are less imposing on the opposition/enemy, than the binding spells, so for myself...that is my first choice. Failing a mundane recourse if possible, or protection spells and bindings, a curse is not completely out of order.

Not entirely sure about the 'magickal attack as evolutionary force' argument, tho'; that sounds a bit too 'Magneto was right' to me. "

Yeah, maybe the badass was right! My experience has lead me to believe that a vast number of sorcerors/magicians feel it their personal duty to "teah ya a thing or two". This IMO, is just a load of egotistical crap, but it happens all the time! Even so far as devising elaborate schemes to prove just how wrong and incompetant you are for not being able to put up with their bullshit!

I can only learn to accpet it as some sorta lesson in tolerating assholes. (for whatever reason I do not know...maybe because the world is full of them and I should just get used to it) I mean, at first, this WAS a courtesy, now it is repetative and dull.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
01:28 / 13.10.03
Ok,I've never actually tried to do a binding on anyone, mostly because I'm tryin to become a better human beng for some reason. But, how would you guys suggest I go about it, if say, a friend of mine was going spastic and trying to kill me for absolutely no reason?
 
 
akira
15:07 / 20.10.03
Has anyone experianced any bad carma after magikly cursing someone? Thats the thing that puts me off the idea most.
 
 
penitentvandal
16:03 / 20.10.03
Well, there does tend, in my experience, to be what one might call karmic recoil, which is certainly a reason not to to do it if it can at all be avoided. But it certainly isn't anywhere near as tough as that whole 'threefold law of return' thing. In my experience, that's a bunch of arse.

May and Spyder, I meant 'back on the board'. I haven't seen either of you here in a while. Thenagain, I haven't been here for a while either...
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
16:35 / 25.10.03
In my mind it breaks down as being a simple issue of "to curse or not to curse"; sex and gender don't even enter into it.

If you'd be willing to crack one of those folks aross the noggin with your bare hands (or the damaging utensil of your choice) then go for the curse if you want. Don't do anything with Magick that you would not do with your bare hands.
 
 
Papess
07:31 / 26.10.03
[tr] Err..uh, nevermind then Velvet.

When do sessions end at Chapel Perilous? [/tr]


*looks all paranoid*
 
 
Quantum
12:39 / 27.10.03
"how would you guys suggest I go about it, if say, a friend of mine was going spastic and trying to kill me for absolutely no reason?"
Smack 'em round the chops, see if they regain their senses.
Of course it's likely there is a reason, maybe find it out and defuse the situation.
How hypothetical are you being?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:27 / 27.10.03
This is what I would be saying if the answers to this thread had been more interesting...

La de da de da. You people are fucking fruit loop gnomes. What the hell do you think you're doing going around cursing anyone non-magical? It's like hitting someone with no limbs or possibly a one year old child. Well done for harming defenceless people. How many of you approve of civilian casualties because it sounds like you're doing a damn fine job of creating them.
 
 
penitentvandal
16:27 / 27.10.03
Fruit loop gnome? Cool. Profileupdatepatrolgo, I think...

But seriously, speaking as a flg, let's just pick that quote of yours apart here. Cursing non-magical people is 'like hitting someone with no limbs or possibly a one-year-old child'? I'd call this an ill-thought-out analogy. Magic, whatever else it may be and whatever else the bedroom Hal Jordans of this world might claim it to be, does not confer upon the user some level of massive godlike power. Certainly not to the level that we're so far above the, ahem, 'mundanes' that they are like unto one-year-old children before us. If that was true then we'd have better jobs. A better analogy might be that this would be like a kung-fu master beating up someone with no real fighting training: the master clearly has a large advantage but is not, in theory, unbeatable.

Of course there is a long ethical tradition in the martial arts that in circumstances like this you should hold back, but all the martial arts people I've met say that this is a fine notion, but fuck all use if you actually find yourself in a fight, in which case you will do whatever is necessary to incapacitate the opponent short of killing them. In some cases, in fact, fighting untrained people can be more dangerous because they (a) don't hold back and (b) are more likely to try crazy shit.

How does this translate to magic use against civilians? My ethical judgement is somewhat compromised these days, but I'd say the basic principle - do not use negative magic against non-magical types - is probably a good one. However, events can cause one to compromise one's principles. It's quite a grey (Pete Carroll would say off-white) area.

I'll stop banging on now before I bring up Gyges' ring, Kantian notions of duty, predestination, situational ethics and all that. But I do think this 'one-year-old baby' comparison is a bit strong.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
17:04 / 27.10.03
Look here boyo while I pick apart your statement. A better analogy might be that this would be like a kung-fu master beating up someone with no real fighting training. Now I have no real fighting training and I happen to know that should a kung-fu master beat on me it would be the equivalent of someone with no limbs (me) being hit by a fully able person (kung-fu master). In theory I could beat that master up with my head, teeth and torso but frankly theory's not always great in practice.

So, basically, to get back to basics (as John Major said to Edwina Currie. Har-de-har-har), I'm right and you're wrong.
 
 
penitentvandal
20:47 / 27.10.03
I never said your point was wrong, just badly phrased. I have problems with my kung-fu master analogy on a lot of levels, not the least of which is it conflates magical and martial skill in a way that occurs too often in these sort of discussions. However, as inaccurate and broad a generalisation as it might be, I still think it better than this 'one-year-old baby' metaphor of yours.

To begin with 'kung fu master', 'untrained opponent', 'magician', 'non-magical person' and, indeed, 'one-year-old baby' are all generalisations, stereotypes which do not, necessarily, give us enougb information to make use of. What style of kung fu is our hypothetical martial artist trained in? What style of magic does our hypothetical magus use? These may seem like quibbles, but they are important: some styles of kung fu will be more 'hard', in martial arts parlance, than others, and thus would be more likely to cause injury if used against an untrained opponent ('hard' in this sense meaning more proactive, and emphasising more high-impact attacks, as opposed to 'softer' styles which are more reactive, though this again is a broad generalisation); some styles of magic carry very specific and hindering rules about things like cursing (Wiccans, for example, might well be bound, or feel bound, by the Threefold Law) which would have an impact on how one approached dealing with a non-magical human.

Then there's the question of what constitutes 'untrained'. As (I'm assuming) a reasonably non-violent individual, you probably would find yourself at a loss in dealing with a kung fu expert. Someone who has a high, albeit unschooled, propensity for violence is likely to have less of a problem. Beating people up is not necessarily a skill you need training from Shaolin monks to learn: some people learn it through brute facts of circumstance, and some even seem to just display a natural aptitude for it. Could the same rules apply to conventionally 'non-magical people'? Maybe so: we all know non-magical people who lead 'charmed lives', we've all known people who are bad luck for others; what if those people are, unconsciously, using what we, as magicians, have to learn to consciously manipulate? In a similar way, there could be people who are harder to curse than others; given the kind of stuff you're dealing with when it comes to magic, I think that, at least, is highly likely. A self-mutilating, suicidal depressive is always going to be easier to magically fuck up than a strong, healthy zen Buddhist type, no? If only because there's a much more obvious path for pain to manifest for the depressive. So a broad and, I may say, extremely emotive, generalisation like your 'one-year-old baby' analogy is at best of little heuristic value and, at worst, I think, inflammatory.

Sorry to go on at length, but there is a strong underlying principle behind what you say, with which I broadly (though with reservations) agree; nevertheless I feel that the argument needs to be a lot more focused than it was in the way you expressed it. There is a difference, I feel, between 'non-magical' and 'magically defenceless'.

...frankly theory's not always great in practice.

On that point, at least, we agree.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:06 / 27.10.03
You know, if I saw you in the street, I swear to god, straight up, I'd walk up to you and like one inch punch you in the face and then I'd curse your hide to the wild blue beyond with Hecate's goddess power supreme behind me! Yeah!

Except I wouldn't because that would be like wrong.
 
 
penitentvandal
21:36 / 27.10.03
You haven't really answered my point.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:19 / 27.10.03
Dude, we agree on that point. Look, you said so above, are you on drugs? We could take you to rehab!
 
 
penitentvandal
08:34 / 28.10.03
Oh, so now you're suggesting I'm on drugs. I'm sure I remember that happening a lot in Plato's Republic...

(Meanwhile, in Ancient Greece...

Glaucon: And so we should mate only the best hunting dogs with each other, and likewise with humanity, do you see?

Socrates: You're comparing people to hunting dogs? What are you, stoned?

Glaucon: I am not stoned.

Socrates: How do you know you're not stoned? Maybe you're so stoned you've forgotten that you're stoned. Maybe what you think is normal consciousness is actually like being stoned for everyone else. If that's the case, how can you say, with any conviction, that you're not stoned?

Glaucon: You're being socratic with me again, aren't you?

Socrates: Why do you say I'm being 'socratic' with you? How do you know that? What sort of behaviour do you define as 'socratic'?

Glaucon: Zeus almighty Socrates, you're the one who sounds fuckin' stoned man. Hermes Trismegistos...)
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:04 / 28.10.03
I knew you were on drugs. Only someone on drugs would make a socratic joke in a thread about cursing girls.
 
 
LVX23
15:29 / 28.10.03
*yawn*
 
 
akira
15:44 / 28.10.03
I'm on drugs.
 
 
Papess
16:19 / 29.10.03
I think I need drugs. No. I know I need drugs.

Anna, I do agee with your point about not cursing the mere mortals...ahem, I mean non-magickal types, but it is very true that people have a natural instinct for magick. Even without training, some people I have met can kick my ass in a magickal sense because they have loads of personal power.

Personally, I have a bit of a hard time defining where magick starts and stops. Considering I am looking at a magickal box that projects the image of G.O.D (graphic on-screen display), I can't imagine what fantasical powers of magick I have that will indeed, one day, be construed as mundane.
 
 
penitentvandal
22:10 / 29.10.03
But surely we're all mundane, really, by definition. I mean, all we do is exploit abilities latent in the human psyche of which most people in cartesian western cultures are unaware. We're the normal people; it's everyone else who's weird (but not wyrd, that's a different thing).

I'm not on drugs, btw, but I am quite pissed. Had a really good gig last night and have been celebrating today.

I am, actually, a philosophy addict. I should stop, but I like it too much. I read Bertrand Russell when I was 12. I'm a lost cause. Just say no, kids. Or maybe maybe.
 
 
Quantum
10:22 / 30.10.03
But we have skills that others don't, same as a martial artist.
I'd like to consider a different metaphor, where a curse is like a gun. Anyone can use it, it's dangerous, it's difficult to defend against.
A friend of mine, not very magical, cursed someone once at school (a teacher in fact). They had a heart attack and retired. Anecdotal evidence to be sure, but I'm careful not to curse anyone, for the same reasons I don't carry a gun.
 
 
Quantum
10:23 / 30.10.03
Oh, and my name is Quantum and I'm a philosophy addict
 
  
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