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Should I become a spy?

12:05 / 07.10.03

So I'm applying for jobs again and I notice a job ad for a postdoc at Oxford. Sounds ok, and it is general pure maths which means I would just get to do what I want. Cool. The only complication is that the post is tied in with a consultancy at GCHQ.

Is this ethically dodgy? The details of the consultancy I have are non-existent consisting only of the statement that the work at GCHQ will be independent of my normal stuff. I'm not sure if I would pass the security check, not knowing exactly what it entails, but it is an interesting thought anyway.

I *guess* that they want mathematicians to do some code related or even pure number theory and perhaps some group theory, so I doubt I'd qualify on that count (although...). And codes aren't necessarily a bad thing, protecting your online security as you purchase your silver plated MasterBater v3.1. Or are they?

12:27 / 07.10.03

Re. the security check -I think there is a possibility of your being subjected to what I think is called "deep vetting." I have a friend who took up a post with the M.O.D and a friend of a friend who works at GCHQ and they were asked all sorts of seemingly irrelevant questions: do you use pornography? Do you consider yourself to have a perversion? (No joke) I gather that they want to establish whether you're blackmailable - they are less concerned with whether you are a perverted porn-hound than with whether someone could get some leverage over you.

12:29 / 07.10.03

I suppose it comes down to how much you trust the government to use the fruits of your labour ethically, since I doubt whether you'd be told what use your work would be put to.

12:32 / 07.10.03

Vetting is definitely mentioned and sounds ominous, to say the least.

12:38 / 07.10.03

I get the impression from my friend at the MOD that it's not as bad as you'd think. Yes, they do ask some fairly intrusive questions but they are not particularly shockable - they won't turn you away just because of some saucy kinkiness, they just want to know about it so that no-one can say "Give us the secret code or we tell your employers about blah blah blah."

We're The Great Old Ones Now

13:18 / 07.10.03

I don't think it's ethically dodgy to work for GCHQ per se. It is possible, however, that you might come into contact with information which you believed should be public, or which revealed activities or policies you might consider unethical.

Some things you'll want to consider, though: GCHQ staff cannot, if I recall, be represented by a union. You also might not be able to discuss your work, which sounds like a small thing, but can be tricky in the context of a relationship.

Deep vetting is a seconday concern, really. Most of us don't go out of our way to conceal even our more outre tastes in anything resembling a serious way. A competent consulting detective could make a joke out of our 'privacy'. Your sexual hijinks and political opinions aren't really a secret to anyone who cares to find out. It's possible that your participation here could be an issue, I suppose; you haven't been shy of expressing your opinions, and Barbelith is notionally a hotbed of revolution, though I have to say that the average lecture on Leninism at Cambridge or UCL is attended by a greater number of members of diehard 'political revolutionary cadres', in the sense which would trouble a security officer.

Don't kid yourself, though; you could end up with things on your conscience. Your work could end up decrypting messages between resistance groups you sympathise with, or encrypting information for weapons systems (I don't have the faintest idea what you do, so forgive me if I'm not accurate, but you take the point). You don't know until you're there. And we've just seen an example of the negative extremes which are possible for a government scientist whose opinion of his work conflicts with his employer's political agenda.

If you do go for this interview, though, it would be nice if you let us know. There are some discussions people would probably rather not be having on the front page while MI5 is giving Barbelith a once over. That said, you might have blown the whole thing by posting this question on a public message board; that's not the height of discreet...

13:39 / 07.10.03

No. Discretion is not my forte. However, this makes me hard to blackmail, I imagine, and pure maths is by its nature almost impossible to talk about outside of maths circles.

But I very much doubt I could get the job, just on the grounds that I don't do very code-like stuff. But then, I'm not entirely sure. You see, while GCHQ probably have some prerequisites in mind, they cannot put it in the job ad. So one is never one hundred per cent sure what they do.

I suppose that I am exploring this as a hypothetical, more than anything else. I'm wondering if I could predict in advance whether the ethics of the job would trouble me. Is asking that question in and of itself a disqualification? Hard to say as pure maths tends to be several removes away from any real application - your weapon example may well hold, yet the people involved may not know about it, Nick.

I will let you know if I go for this, of course. (I am almost certain not to.) But I can't imagine that MI5 would really care about the discussions here. Am I being naive? I mean, activism is hardly visible here and left wing discussions are...toothless.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

13:57 / 07.10.03

I don't honestly know about Barbelith. As I understand it, a couple of decades ago, an equivalent organisation - say, an intellectual discussion group centring around a university union or a given circle of academics who invited others to speak at meetings - would have merited some form of observation. Now, I have no idea what security priorities are. If leftishness is still a stumbling block, I have to say I want to screw at the services to get up to date...

Tryphena Absent

14:18 / 07.10.03

They probably won't be observing Barbelith because we're far too inactive as a rule, very little political activity is planned through the board and we're really not that radical. They will check Barbelith out if you go for this job but everything we discuss is perfectly legal and you never know, someone might adopt it as their message board for fun. Any security check will extensively cover your family and anyone they know you've been connected to who has a security file (include people who might have been in the vicinity of a bomb scare who talked to the police, anyone who's been involved in hard protests particularly the Poll Tax Riots). If my father can get through to the last round of interviews for the service after working at a communist bookshop for years than you'll most likely be fine if you go for it.

16:15 / 07.10.03

Blah.

Screw ethics. How's the money?

16:18 / 07.10.03

Standard rate plus 2 grand. Everyone has their price, of course, but can I really live with mine being so low?

16:50 / 07.10.03

I used to know a guy who worked at GCHQ. Dull as dishwater (although that may have been "deep cover"). He was, naturally, sexually ambiguous, as all the best spies are. Helps when you have to spring a "honeytrap", which sounds like great fun.

I still have my old Man From Uncle suitcase in my parents' attic, if you want to look the part at interview, Lurid Kuryakin.

Tryphena Absent

16:58 / 07.10.03

It's mostly paperwork in MI5 anyway. A bit like teaching really but better pay.

17:01 / 07.10.03

To me, it sounds like a great opportunity. If a lifetime of watching crappy sci-fi movies has taught me anything, it's that brilliant-but-troubled mathematicians + secret government agency = wacky dimension-hopping fun, Philadelphia Experiment stylee.

You know just how it'll be: you hurl yourself down into a chair in front of a computer screen, stare in a baffled manner, stroke your beard for a couple of minutes, exhale loudly and start typing reallyreallyreally fast—then BOOM! they're handing you a gun and you're the first one through the Stargate.

19:13 / 07.10.03

Dude! I couldn't live with myself for turning down an oppurtunity like that. Do you think that cyborg alien women are part of the package?
Heh, don't get ahead of yourself, Lurid. Save that for the interview.