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How does one go about joining a monastery?

 
 
EE
12:05 / 07.10.03
Let's say you've decided that it would be a good thing for you to spend some time in a monastery. For instance, a Rinzai Zen monastery in Japan. How would you go about doing this? I could use some ideas.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
12:15 / 07.10.03
ee - if you were based in the uk i'd recommend you got a taste of zen first by going on retreat here first.
 
 
illmatic
12:29 / 07.10.03
The best thing to do would be to contact a community over here and see what links you've got with communities in other countries. That way you'd get a tast of the philosphy and meditation practices before going the whole hog.

Sorry, EE, if this seesm rude but you do seem to start rather odd threads. Makes me wonder if you're attempting to wind people up.
 
 
EE
13:06 / 07.10.03
Sir Tropical Downbeat Illmatic: No attempts to wind people up here. This is a sincere request.

I've got a good idea of what goes on inside a monastery of this sort. I've done plenty of reading on the subject. It sounds like something that would be good for me. I just can't seem to find a way in, so to speak. I've done several internet searches, e-mailed several U.S. "Zen Centers", but so far I've had no luck getting any useful information on joining a monastery.

I'm afraid a retreat isn't what I want. I've got a taste of Zen, and I dont' think I'll recieve the training I want in a weekend or a three-week retreat.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:11 / 07.10.03
On the other hand it might not be a bad idea to improve your experience and show how dedicated you are before approaching people - and at retreats you might meet people who could give you some useful advice. I don't know anything about it, but it seems unlikely that an echt monastery would accept people without considerable evidence of sincerity, dedication etc. I doubt that it 'spounding like something that would be good for you' would be enough...
 
 
EE
13:23 / 07.10.03
Hmmm. That's a good point. Maybe some time in a U.S. monastery would be a good idea. There's one out in Pittsburgh, and it just so happens I've got not one but two siblings living in that area.
 
 
illmatic
13:30 / 07.10.03
Okay, sorry for the cynicism. I'd say contact some local groups if you have any near you - a lot of the Tibetian Buddhist organisations have links back to monasteries in Tiber or India, I don't know about Zen though. Failing that there must be some sort of National US Buddnist organisation who can suggest stuff. A retreat might make you some connections as well.

This is a great book, btw, and might give you a pointer as to what to expect.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:51 / 07.10.03
I think it depends greatly where you are. Essentially, I'd say find your nearest Zen school or scholar and go talk to them. Since you list youself as being 'someplace cold', I can't help you with that - you'll have to do the websearch yourself.

I know a guy here in the UK who is an ordained Zen monk - a donin, the lowest grade. He practiced in Japan, and found the whole thing excellent, but limited. His master, when informed that my friend was leaving, was of the opinion that to practise Zen in the world was a greater challenge than doing so in a monastic environment, and in a sense, the goal of the Zen life.
 
 
illmatic
13:51 / 07.10.03
Why do you want to do it, btw? It's quite a bold gesture.
 
 
EE
17:35 / 07.10.03
The monastic life has always attracted me. For a long while I thought I was destined to be a jesuit or something...

These days, I need discipline. Out here in the world, there isn't a logical system I can't subvert. Whether it's work, government, school, people--once I figure out how it works, I get lazy, and do shit however I please because I can get away with it. From what I've read about Zen and the way monks train, I don't think I can fake my way to success in a monastery. Not if I'm going to get anything good out of it.

Besides, it'd be nice to get away from distractions for a while. Things like money, drugs, girls, television, work...I need a break from these things and peel off all the layers of bullshit with which they've covered my mind. Plus, a japanese monastery would be a great place to learn japanese, which I've always wanted to do.
 
 
Hieronymus
18:19 / 07.10.03
I think Leonard Cohen once referred to Zen monks as the Marines of the spiritual world. So true.
 
 
Jack Fear
18:21 / 07.10.03
Mm. It strikes me as a bit—um—odd—unseemly, even—to be approaching the decision to pursue a religious lifestyle—a Buddhist lifestyle, at that—with thoughts of what's in it for me foremost in your mind: I need. I want.

I mean, whatever happened to joining a monastery because, oh, I dunno, your heart was on fire with the love of God and the desire to serve Him?

Monastic life requires some serious ego-annihilation. I doubt that you'll get good results if you undertake it to escape your worries. The religious life is a life of engagement, not of retreat: though the confrontations are generally invisible, they are no less ferocious than the struggles you face "out in the world."

From a Buddhist perspective, too, your very desire for peace and ease would probably, in fact, be your greatest obstacle to achieving them...

So. What you want is somebody to tell you what to do, someone to break you of your weasly ways and challenge you. Oh, and to take care of all your material needs, while they're at it.

Why not join the army, then? Or kill someone and get yourself sentenced to a maximum-security prison? Either way, it's three hots and a cot, and all the discipline you can handle.

Myself, I'm of the opinion that any discipline that is imposed from without is unlikely to be truly helpful.
 
 
EE
18:57 / 07.10.03
So. What you want is somebody to tell you what to do, someone to break you of your weasly ways and challenge you. Oh, and to take care of all your material needs, while they're at it.

No. I want to break myself out of my weasly ways, and I want other people with the same idea in mind around me while I'm doing it. And your sarcastic tone is not appreciated.

Monastic life requires some serious ego-annihilation.

In a Zen monastery? The hell you say!

I doubt that you'll get good results if you undertake it to escape your worries.

I said nothing about escaping worries.

The religious life is a life of engagement, not of retreat: though the confrontations are generally invisible, they are no less ferocious than the struggles you face "out in the world."

There are no struggles "out in the world" that I find ferocious. The only struggle that means two shits to me is the one going on inside myself. I happen to think a buddhist monastery is a good place to take a look at what's going on inside me.

From a Buddhist perspective, too, your very desire for peace and ease would probably, in fact, be your greatest obstacle to achieving them...

I don't desire peace. I thirst for it. Big difference.

Myself, I'm of the opinion that any discipline that is imposed from without is unlikely to be truly helpful.

Hey, that's great and all, but I asked for ways of contacting monasteries with regard to joining them, not for your opinion of my reasons. To be honest, those mean very little to me.
 
 
EE
19:05 / 07.10.03
Ah, crap, I've gotten all snarky. My apologies, Jack Fear. I'm really not an asshole. But I fear you've misunderstood my reasons for joining a monastery. Not your fault; I didn't do much of a job explaining myself...
 
 
EE
19:25 / 07.10.03
...right, then, explaining myself, here I go:

I've studied Zen for some time now. As much as one is able to "study" Zen, anyway. I read a good bit about what goes on inside a zen monastery. I already know what to expect. The hours upon hours of meditation, the getting thwacked with a huge stick, the very little time to sleep, all of that. None of it scares me. It'll be tough, both physically and mentally, but fuck it. I'll do what I need to do.

And I am well aware that the distractions I am temporarily escaping will still be there when I get out. I am not expecting a relatively short stay in a monastery to make me enlightened. I am not expecting a master to say but a word and shatter my ego-shell into a thousand pieces, freeing me of my earthly desires.

I don't desire peace, I thirst for it. There's a story where a man comes to Joshu and asks for the path to liberation. Joshu leads the man to a river and asks him to peer into the surface. As the man leans over to do so, Joshu grabs him and shoves his face under the water and holds it there. After a short while, he pulls the man up. "Why did you do that, you crazy old bastard?!" the man gasps. Joshu asks him "What was on your mind the most when you were under the water?" The man replies "Air, naturally. I wanted air above all." Joshu then tells him "come to me when you want the path as badly as you wanted air a little while ago."

Buddy, let me tell you, I fucking thirst for the path of no-path. I want it as badly as that guy wanted air. I'm going to where I think I'm going to find it.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
19:26 / 07.10.03
Here’s an interesting description of the process of entering a Japanese Zen monastery, EE. More here.

In approaching a traditional Japanese Zen monastery to begin practice, you would be expected to have abandoned everything that you hold dear so that you could face yourself unencumbered. You would have a few personal necessities in a backpack. In front of the monastery, there would be a high wall with a large, ornate and heavy gate called the Sanmon or Mountain Gate.

Beginning Zen is like climbing a mountain; it requires effort to clamber free of our illusions and beliefs, until we reach the clear air and vast vantage of the peak. Knocking on the gate, eventually the door would swing open to reveal the gatekeeper, usually a huge and unbelievably ugly monk. Making your request for admittance, you would be politely but briefly told that the monastery was full, too poor to accept another student and that, in any case, you wouldn’t like it. If you persist in knocking after the gatekeeper had closed the door on you the first time, the monk would return and begin to berate you for being too stupid to understand this simple statement, swear at you, and would most likely swat at your head a few times. After a while, the monk would refuse to answer your knock.

Now what will you do? Do you really want to do this after all? If you do, you would neatly lean your bundle against a step and sit with your knees up and your face against your knees. The angle of the posture would be silently noted in detail by the watching gatekeeper, who might intermittently chase you off a few more times. When night falls, you might have to remain seated on the steps until morning, or you might be allowed into the monastery to sleep in a hallway overnight and be given a small meal. In any case, the next morning would find you on the steps again, going through the same business. On the second night, you might be allowed to stay “overnight” in the tanga, a semi-open reception area. The next day you would be expected to sit in a lotus posture in the tanga, and to be found in that posture should anyone happen by. This excruciating and lonely experience is called tangaryo.

At the end of the day, you might be introduced to the godo or head monk, a senior student of the Teacher, who would question you closely about your background and your motives for coming to the monastery. If the head monk feels that you are sincere, you would be given a place in the Zendo on a probationary basis and shown how to do zazen. It would be anywhere from several weeks to a year before you would be formally introduced to the Teacher and begin to actually practice Zen.


The Buddhists I know seem to have found a way to keep the lid on "snarky", EE. Took them years of work though. But they all had to start somewhere, and I'm sure feeling the need had to come first. If you'll pardon me saying so, "demonstrating sincerity" would seem like the biggest challenge you face here.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
19:34 / 07.10.03
Well, cross-posted there and your last post shows you know more than I do about it, so hush my mouth and all the best, dude.

I'll leave my post there because I liked that description of the process so much. Looks like it's all down to proving you're sincere and, as you say, genuinely thirsting for it.
 
 
pixilated
21:09 / 07.10.03
ok. i held off on posting, as i wasn’t sure if this was even a serious inquiry or not, but…egads!! i too am a little concerned about your thirsting to just join a monastery, any monastery, just like that. you say you’ve “studied” zen for quite some time now, that you want the path of no-path…

but, first of all, many of the zen temples today are far different from the ones you’ve read about – none of all that thwacking and such.

second, please realize that these are small, tight-knit communities we’re talking about. no temple/monastery is the same, and teachers have different styles. some are total frauds. i would like to think that if you truly are sincere, you should want to check out several different zen monasteries and teachers before even considering monastic life. you should want to begin building some relationships with fellow students and your teachers, before deciding to go the whole nine yards. otherwise it’s like trying to do three hours of zazen without ever having tried before to meditate for even five minutes!!

my best friend is currently doing a one-month residency at a zen monastery – that’s the most they’ll let her do for now. and before they’d even consider letting her do this residency, she went on a couple of weekend retreats. and before they’d even let her go on weekend retreats, she had to attend services as often as she could.

if you are truly seeking to try to follow the path, then you must have the patience and diligence and enough self-awareness to know that the best way to join a monastery is to go there yourself, and start attending services. really, it’s as easy as that. none of that "i tried e-mailing some centers" crap (honestly, can’t you see how lazy that looks??). start small, with your own community, before you even think about going to japan. that is, if you’re truly serious.

if you’d like, i can put you in touch with my friend. message me.
 
 
illmatic
07:31 / 08.10.03
Ditto to pixalited's post. I appreciate all your reasons but I'd ask why not start now, with a lay practice or local group (if you have anyone near you)? Couldn't it be said that the move into a monastery is such a huge, bold act (not gesture as I wrote above)- it's going to take some planning, finances to get there etc - that it's acting as a from of procrastionation? Waiting for the opportunity to get it perfect before starting? Putting off to a degree?

You might find this piece of interest: Slow Volcano. It's a fantastic piece of writing - if you blat around his site for a bit he mentions his feeling that he had the choice between entering a monastery or killing himself. This extract reminded me of some of what you're saying:

At the back of your mind is just jacking it all in. The whole damn lot of it! Beginning afresh. This time doing it differently. Living a simple, unassuming life. Something drastic. Selling up! Escaping the rat-race for a life of rural self-sufficiency. Doing up an old van and taking to the road. Travelling the world. Going to a monastery even. That’s the simple life! Why be anchored in the city doing the same old chores? And yet, when you’re honest with yourself, when the first flush of enthusiasm has died down, you’ve got to admit you have no great inclination to up sticks and leave for good. There’s still a lot you like about what you’re doing already. It’s just this damn gnawing hunger for something else!
 
 
EE
19:54 / 08.10.03
This is my third attempt to reply to this thread, so if there are two preceding this, blame it on my lousy computer.

First off, thanks to everybody for all your ideas and help. As is turns out, my internet research has told me that the best way to take up residency in a true monastery in Japan is to, as many here have suggested, spend some time in U.S. Zen centers doing the retreat thing. So be it. The Zen center in Pittsburg offered to take me in for a weekend to see how I like it, but there's a Zen center here in Detroit (well, Hamtramck anyway. Who knew?) that I'm going to check out first. May as well go to Pittsburg, though. You know, see the family and all.
 
 
illmatic
07:39 / 09.10.03
Cool. Nice one. I'd be interested to hear what your experience is. Please let us know!
 
  
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