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Emergence

11:28 / 03.10.03

I know next to nothing about this but was intrigued by Grant Morrison’s comments at the ICA talk he did earlier this year. The crux of it, as explained by Morrison, seemed to be that when you have enough of something, it becomes sufficiently complex to develop some form of sentience. Like thousands of amoebas at the bottom of the ocean forming life millions of years ago, or something. He related this to both computers becoming sentient via artificial intelligence, and interestingly – but confusingly – to natural phenomena behaving like a rudimentary computer processor.

According to Morrison, when the wind blows leaves about, or when water in a stream flows over rocks, the activity generates a form of ‘information’ as the water has to make thousands of ‘calculations’ in order to navigate it’s course over the rocks. Therefore, when a shaman sits by the river and receives ‘divine communication’ from the noise of the stream or the wind blowing through the trees, a form of communication is indeed taking place. The shaman is tapping into this natural ‘information’ that the universe is producing.

I’m paraphrasing wildly here from something that happened over 6 months ago – but I’m intrigued by some of this and would like to find out what Grant’s sources are on emergence so I can look into it myself. I’m not sure how solid any of this is, but I’m quite intrigued. The concept is obviously very interesting to anyone who works the kind of shamanism that involves communication coming through natural phenomena, or city magic, etc…

I’d be interested if anyone knows more about this, or can point me towards a good source for these ideas. I’m posting this here rather than in the laboratory, as I’m specifically interested in the implications of the theory on magical and shamanic practice.

12:10 / 03.10.03

There is a thread about it in the Lab somewhere - can't be bothered to put in links. There's also another thread on Artifical Intelligence which talks about some of the concepts - to paraphrase badly - some of the problems that have arisen trying to build AI's seems to stem from viewing intelligence as a thing in itself, whereas it can be seen instead as arising from a combination of factors - consciousness as a gesalt rather than self-existent.

I'm aware that Emergence is a big new area for scientific research, looking at systems and what arises from their interactions, rather than breaking things down into their component parts. I'm sure I've just mangled this explantion completely, and done the subject a huge diservice, so if any scientifically minded types want to correct me, feel free...

The link in with Magick that I can see is the way in which spirits are supposed to take on more and more complexity the more you use them wanting to be given more work, and eventually exhibiting sentinece of their own, perhaps even going onto become Gods. Perhaps some of our own obsessions or neurosis can be seen in this light, they certainly seem to "possess" us from time to time...There's an interesting essay called Finding Your way in the Woods which talks about our interaction with nature as an encounter with a Gestalt. Perhaps the paranoia experienced herein is something to do with encountering so much information all in one go? Anyway, starting to babble...

12:18 / 03.10.03

The thread is here.

A friend of mine actually works in this area, well, maybe not "this area" as such but she's a research scientist doing work on naturally occuirng order in a certain sort of single cell systems (can't remember which). She did have an intriguing "pop science" shelf of books on this subject, will try and get some recommendations...

14:02 / 03.10.03

Wasn't Wolfram's A New Kind Of Science all about this sort of thing as well?

14:21 / 03.10.03

Note- emergence is not necessarily the emergence of consciousness, wetness is an emergent property of water- one molecule of H2O isn't wet, a puddle is. I'm assuming we're focussing on emergent intelligence here, as relevant to magick.

Just read a sci-fi book (Redemption Ark) in which one idiot-savant type character is obsessed with emergence. She designs and makes a vastly complex mouse maze that approaches the complexity needed to allow intelligent behaviour to emerge, which I thought was a cool idea- analogue AI.

I don't agree with Morrison about water processing information, it smacks of a pseudo explanation for spirits. When the shaman listens to the wind and water they aren't receiving information that's being projected, they are constructing meaning from those noises.

I could see the possibility of spirits as emergent properties of things, but it seems a bit far to stretch.

15:35 / 03.10.03

The grandaddy of all pop books on the subject of emergence is Kevin Kelly's Out of Control, in case anybody's interested, and Howard Rheingold's take on connectivity as a social force in Smart Mobs is pretty interesting. On a more magickal note, there's The Millionth Circle (gave away my copy, am too lazy to look up the author)...

Emergent properties are notoriously hard to predict, but I'm curious - what sort of "things" would you like to see emerge from a world-wide magickal community? Are there magickal "things" (effects, practices, memes, whatever) you'd like to see spread through the general/mundane population?

20:48 / 03.10.03

When the shaman listens to the wind and water they aren't receiving information that's being projected, they are constructing meaning from those noises.

what's the difference between the two???
i dont think that the wind or water projects out information directly to and for the shaman to "read" , but they do express/project information nevertheless.
and that I would still label as communication......and this communication is possible only due to the multitide of individual components/elements that make up the "wind" or the "water"

Twig the Wonder Kid

22:11 / 03.10.03

I've read Steven Johnson's book on the subject, can't say I recommend it. I hear John Holland's book, also called "Emergence", is better.

For me it is most suscinctly summed up by Douglas Hofstader in his "Prelude ... Ant Fugue", that featured in "Godel, Escher and Bach".

extract - http://www.metamanda.com/blog/archives/000312.html

Personally, I find it a useful holistic antidote to the reductionism of conventional science.

10:54 / 04.10.03

Godel, Escher and Bacharach?

14:25 / 06.10.03

*ROFL!* self-reference, holistic/reductionist thinking and easy listening crooning, no wonder it won a Pulitzer.

Iszabelle- thanks for those references, do you know anything about the supposed discrediting of emergence? More from the philosophy side than the AI, but I heard a rumour it was challenged.

what sort of "things" would you like to see emerge from a world-wide magickal community?
Global awakening and a universally accepted understanding that it makes sense to be nice to people. Or, a global superconsciousness gestalt utilising the best aspects of it's constituent members to guide humanity to a utopian future (although this has possibly already happened via the internet and we just haven't noticed).

When the shaman listens to the wind and water they aren't receiving information that's being projected, they are constructing meaning from those noises. (Me)
what's the difference between the two??? (H3r)
When you post and I read, that's communication from one human consciousness to another, when I discern messages in TV static that's probably not. I realise it's questionable, but I make a distinction because I want to avoid solipsism- I think there are other minds and they can communicate with me. I don't think the stream has a mind comparable to a human's, or the wind, I think they deliver the message from a mind in the same way text delivers a message from your mind to mine.
So I don't think the wind and water are like people communicating, I think they are the means of communicating- they are a language, not a mind.