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Do You Want Me to Lose my Job?- Libraries, Librarians and the Public Perception.

 
  

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Our Lady of The Two Towers
15:48 / 02.10.03
I know that I'm not spending my time sitting around on my backside with no work to do, yet it seems that, according to any statistics we try to take, that people aren't using their libraries any more.

Yet books have not been supplanted by any of the varieties of ebooks and other scams that have been tried over the years, and when the Liam Gallaghers and Jamie Olivers of the world claim not to read any book that tends to make quite a few people think "what an arse". With people like WHSmiths and the BBC putting serious time and effort in to promotions like The Big Read it's arguable that reading is experiencing, if not a golden age, then at least a fairly bright Indian summer.

So, with declining visitors and declining book loans, where are libraries going wrong? I'm interested in why Barbeloids don't use libraries, in the hopes that this will be a perceptual thing that perhaps libraries can then address. I must admit that before I started work in the library service that I use now I didn't use libraries for many years, but that was because I got out of the habit of using libraries during my teenage years where I was primarily reading comics, what's your excuse?
 
 
HCE
17:15 / 02.10.03
I don't check books out from libraries simply because I buy a lot of books. I do visit them when I need visual references, however.
 
 
Ariadne
17:15 / 02.10.03
I don't go because I don't need to, is the straight answer. I used to use the library in New Zealand a lot, cause I was skint, but now I tend to just buy the books I want.
I like to keep books after reading them, and also my experience (admittedly, 3 years out of date and of another country!) is that it's hard to get hold of the latest releases.
Having said that, I was in the local library the other day to pick up a leaflet and it was great - it just felt like a really pleasant place and I told myself I should join. But then I forgot. Perhaps this will be the prompt to get me to use it - saving Our Lady from the dole.
 
 
Ariadne
17:17 / 02.10.03
(Actually, just writing this is reminding me of my local library when I was a child, which I loved going to. Good Reader Badges, hurray!)
 
 
Persephone
18:43 / 02.10.03
On the corner of Milwaukee & Wabansia right near my house, there is an empty lot where they tore down the laundry plant. It has a lovely billboard with a picture of the library that they intend to build there. The sign has been there for well over a year. And I wonder... if I started to put little offerings under the billboard, then would the library rise up out of the ground?

I would adore a library. When we lived in Madison, Radix had stacks privileges & it was the best. We could check out books & keep them for the whole semester, and only had to return them if somebody else wanted them. Then when we moved here, we lived near the Sulzer Library & that was also pretty good, even though you only got books for two weeks. But now we live too far away to keep shuttling back & forth to renew books.

Borrowed-book reading is different from bought-book reading to me. I mostly buy books used; but even so, there are a lot of books that I just want to read & not own. So the buying process is a bit fraught for me --and now that reading is exclusively tied up with buying, the whole process of choosing books is fraught. Come to think of it, I think that this has probably contributed to my reading block. Getting books from a library is riskless: if you hate it, you throw it back on the pile to be returned. Etc.
 
 
at the scarwash
20:25 / 02.10.03
My problem with libraries is that I love too much. I love to free associate amongst the stacks, and then browse through CDs and LPs, and traipse out in a literary narcosis with a stack of 20 or 30 items under my arm. And then I have to work extra shifts. Or I have a love problem. Or I lose my keys. And that lovely stack of books gets forgotten, more or less, and the fines begin to mount. I invariably lose something. Right now I owe my local municipal library well over $100 in late fees and replacement costs.

Thankfully, my return to the warm embrace of academia has carried the attendant blessing of access to three on-campus libraries. I have about twenty books checked out at this point. I think they're in my room. God knows when they're due.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
22:00 / 02.10.03
wah, i *so* miss having checking access to an academic library. just been hanging out w/ a couple of friends who are starting part time courses at local uni and are v. excited about library priveliges.

Like testpattern, libraries don't actually work out cheap for me as i'm hopeless at getting books back. i have books from several towns which never went back and could probably support a family of four for a year on the fines.

which is dumb as i don't buy books as can't afford them.

*slap on wrist*(before flowers does it for me.)
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:44 / 03.10.03
I don't like plastic covers, and you can't write in library books...

Actually, I'm not a great annotator, but I do like to keep books after I have read them - if only because I might wish to consult them again in the future (there are few things more irritating than not being able to check a reference when one wants to). There is another aspect to this, which is that once I have read something it becomes, to some extent (and that extent will vary according to the book) a part of the things that make up my intellect, and I like to keep the physical manifestations of that around me.

I just like to have a lot of books, I think, and find I am more likely to read them if I buy them rather than borrowing them from the library.
 
 
gergsnickle
13:00 / 03.10.03
I love the library, I too often free associate and end up with the 20 or 30 items (but get them back on time after paying a huge fine for some overdue magazines back when I was 13) - if library use is on the downhill road, that might be because it doesn't seem as though the great majority read fiction anymore, and most reference material can be found online when you're in your underwear. The local library seems to have gotten around this by acquiring tons of new CDs, videos and DVDs, which seems to keep packing them in.
 
 
Professor Silly
13:21 / 03.10.03
Granted, I'm married to a librarian....

But I do still use the library. As an artist (tattoo artist specifically) I often need visual reference to create custom designs--when this happens I have my wife bring home a dozen or so books. She's reading four or five books at any given time, so she makes great use of the service as well. She also brings home comic book trades for us to look at, as well as DVD's--we never rent movies when we can borrow them for free.
 
 
illmatic
13:41 / 03.10.03
Funny, Flowers, or Hours, or whatever you name is now, I was thinking about starting a thread on this just t'other day, to engage in my newfound love for the libray. Well, refound, actually. I've just joined the library down the road form my house in Stoke Newington and i'ts friggin great. They might not have everything I want when I want it, but they do have loads of great stuff, and I'll chance on things I would never read otherwise.

Basically, I don't feel that I need to collect most books, certainly novels, unless they're real faves. I have a big and scary collection of occult books and that's more than enough, thank you, and as I become increasingly selective about what I read in this field, I figure I may as well save the money and space and hit the library for a fix of print.

I remember a comment made by someone like Nigella Lawson last year about people using libraries less and buing books. At a push, I'd guess it's because of the general rightward/Thatcherite drift of our society. What I mean is - a) libraries have had their budgets cut steadily over the years so people are less likely to go as they can't get exactly what they want, and so another "public good" goes to the wall, the way of free dental and optical care. And people aren't engaged anymore with these ideas as issues, as public concerns, so the demand decrease - these "public good" ideas seem less on the agenda to me, so people don't vote with their feet. Hackney is a good example of this, with a recent attempt to shut the libraries on Saturdays to save money. Fuckers.

This ties in with b) the success of big business in the Bookstore trade, Waterstones' and the like. People just seem general just more aware that they can buy and consume, rather than borrow. Much as I love a browse in Waterstones, I don't like their omnipotence. It seems to me you're much more likely to drop into the Waterstones at lunchtime and spend a tenner, than even remember there's a library just around the corner to your house. I think they're great though - I feel like starting a "Barbelith loves libraries! Save Flowers' Career!" campaign. I think they are potentially a great community resource. I don't want to grow old seeing another little chunk of our shared social contract flushed away by genral rightwing attrition. Get going. You know it makes sense.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:46 / 03.10.03
I owe the Library Service 40 quid so there's the reason and it's purely due to laziness. However libraries are good for borrowing trash (particularly Sally Stewart and other books about Cornish love affairs and also Herts libraries stock a lot of LGB fiction which is weird but kinda cool and the kids section... rock the DWJ, teen romance and stories about ballet dancers) but I always think I'm going to lose the books (and often do).
 
 
Lyra
14:57 / 03.10.03
I haven't used the library for fiction in years, not since I accumulated a hideously large fine and refused to pay it on the grounds that I would only run it back up again. Now I'm back at university I have access to the reference library for research stuff and only occasionally sneak back to my 'local' library for non-fiction material.

A huge percentage of what I read comes from second hand bookshops, there are loads of them nearby and you can keep the books for as long as you like. I'm a big hoarder of books so the prospect of giving them back after I've read them fills me with horror.

I can think of three things which would guarantee more library loyalty.

No fines - instead impose a guilt penalty. For every late day there should be one minute of shame inducing lecture from a stern librarian (in glasses). Severe offenders should be made to write a open apology letter to other library users begging forgiveness for depriving them of the book in question.

Catch them young - never underestimate the power that a musty smelling book corner can have over a young mind. I have nothing but good memories connected with my early library experiences, curled up on a cushion with a seemingly endless supply of books.

Adopt a book - much like adopting an animal in the local zoo. Hoarders would get all of the pleasure of ownership and still keep great works in general circulation for the benefit of others. In moments of extreme weakness it should be possible to arrange a visit to stare lovingly at it's glossy cover and flick casually through your favourite bits.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:25 / 03.10.03
I have to admit, my use of libraries ended when I got a job in a certain London retail outlet, and realised that nicking books was so much better. Then I got a better job, and, having got used to actually owning them, I tend to buy them now.

I do always feel guilty though, in that I should go to Stokey library and check some books out and in again as a token gesture, just to keep the numbers up. Libraries are a fucking wicked thing, and I feel they should be supported.
 
 
rizla mission
20:01 / 03.10.03
To echo a couple of other people, I don't make use of the library much anymore because I spend so much time frequenting second hand bookshops that I have literally 50 books stacked up that I've yet to read.

Just the marginal thrill of finding a good book for £1.50 taking it home and *owning it* and building up a cool looking bookcase - sad but true.

I used to get loads of stuff out of the library when I was little.. to some extent the stuff I used to pick up on saturday mornings more or less at random helped define my taste in books as a grownup..

But then I guess everybody approves of libraries and thinks they're important etc.. it's just that we don't bother to make use of them..
 
 
Squirmelia
21:25 / 05.10.03
I often use my local library, but have recently been put off by the fact that it seems to have turned into an internet cafe. No longer can I look up books on their system quickly and easily, I have to wait hours for someone to stop using the internet. Tch.

Instead of paying fines with money, apparently you now can give tins of food to the library instead. I am not sure if this will encourage people back.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
08:26 / 06.10.03
Between the National Theatre School library and the Helsinki public system, I have over 60 items on loan at present (and only €3 in fines), so I'm not a good example of someone who doesn't go there. Is it easy to renew and hold books over the Internet? Are the latest titles available? It took me ages to finish the Pullman trilogy here because I had to wait for someone to return the right one at the right time (and library opening hours in Helsinki are designed to keep you guessing). However, I get all kinds of language books, older respectable fiction, and LOTS of theatre theory books out. The latter especially, because they're still far too expensive for me to own them all. Then I renew them until they call my house and tell me I have to bring them back.

On the other hand, second-hand bookshops in Helsinki have a rotten selection of english books, so my options have been limited to new or borrowed. Maybe that's a factor.
 
 
Olulabelle
15:12 / 06.10.03
Most libraries in the UK let you renew and reserve books online now. I know this because my Mum is disabled and as a consequence spends A LOT of time on the local library site reserving books and such, rather than having to get to the actual library itself just to make a renewal.

Libraries rock. Our local one even has mini-theatre events and good things for kids to do in school holidays.
 
 
Baz Auckland
15:39 / 06.10.03
I've never used the Toronto libraries, probably only because they don't have a large central location, but small libraries scattered throughout the city, making it very time-consuming to find a specific book. Hamilton, where I grew up, has a large central library with at least one copy of everything. Very useful.

Now that I have access to the University of Toronto library, I am in heaven. They have a copy of everything I could ever want to read! So I use the library a lot now, just not the public one...

If there is a decline in library use here, I blame the big block bookstores for providing coffee and comfortable chairs. I've spent days in these stores reading as it's cheaper than buying new books, and they have enough copies that you don't have to wait to read the new releases...
 
 
Jack Vincennes
16:36 / 06.10.03
Like everyone else here, I like keeping books after I've read them, if only because I occasionally forget what I have read and what I haven't (and public libraries often don't carry the specific book I'm looking for, even if they do have some of that author's work). I use public libraries for non-fiction, however, because that's one thing that's still expensive and - since I read popular non-fiction rather than anything obscure - they tend to be available as well.

Academic libraries are, clearly, a joy forever, especially the NLS in Edinburgh where you get the books delivered directly to your table, and people look at you funny if you cough more than 3 times in a single hour. Better that cloister-like atmosphere than a Starbucks in a huge Borders any day (or maybe this just indicates how far research has warped my personality)
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
10:27 / 07.10.03
I'm always puzzled by how people build up fines, if we gave each item a random date within the next four months or refused to tell people the date but gave them a complex algorithm to work it out then I could understand, but we print it on the inside date label! And if there's not that there's normally a phone number where they'll tell you! Mind you, having said that, the number of people who come in to our library without bringing in their library card and are surprised that they are needed.

I know there are problems, one of the things that keeps me where I am now is the knowledge that we've still got a reasonable sized books budget so can buy a decent selection of books each month, whereas other authorities aren't as fortunate, or don't believe in libraries as our's does. The people say that they prefer to own a book puzzle me as well, I use the library to vet books, CDs, videos etc that I might want to buy, saving me from several quid wasted on something that turned out to be a pile of crap, I never would have tried China Mieville if I'd seen his book in a shop.
 
 
Olulabelle
14:37 / 07.10.03
Oh I do like libraries, I think you're really lucky to work in one. How do you get to do it, are there heaps of library qualifications a person needs these days? And does it matter if the Dewey Decimal Classification system foxes you, as it does me?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:17 / 07.10.03
Depends on where you're doing it. In the UK libraries are a mix of professional and non-professional staff, non-professionals tend to get the more boring jobs like shelving and issue/returns, while the professionals wear straw boaters and sip mint julips and mourn the death of the Empire. They'll tend to do 'enquiry work', namely what happens when people come in asking for information, but, mileage will vary between authorities.

You can indeed do a BA in librarianship, though these days it tends to get called something like Information Science, in these mercenary days universities often assume that students want to be trained to work in Business Information Units within Big Business, compiling market reports and current awareness bulletins, and public librarianship is a poor relation of that, so might be a pathway within the larger degree. You can also do a post-grad. I wasn't checked for my knowledge of Dewey before starting the course, after all it's only one of a number of different classification schemes (Birmingham University uses the mind-melting Library of Congress scheme and the Bodlean IIRC, created it's own scheme), but they won't teach you how to avoid wanting to lamp anyone who says "Why does it take three years to learn how to shelve books then?" or to deal with the fact that, after a few years, those 'half moon glasses and hair in a bun' stereotypes do start to get a wee bit annoying.

There are parts of the job that do monumentally suck, of course, and some parts that are great fun, so in that sense there were lots of worse jobs I could have got.

Anyway, this is a thread for you all to admit your guilty compliance in the erosion of my career. Keep going!
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
11:21 / 12.10.03
So, the ideal public library for the Island state of Barbelith (twinned with Selfawaria)?

1) No fines, just hard stares.

2) Books in as soon as they are published.

Any more?
 
 
Jack Vincennes
11:37 / 13.10.03
3) Shelves that reach to the ceiling so you can't really see where you're going and need to use ladders to see the top books. This would combine the happiness innate to being in a place with loads of books and the happiness innate to being in a maze. And keep the easily entertained (such as me) entertained...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:29 / 13.10.03
Later opening hours would be helpful. I can't use the library if it's never open when I'm not at work.

Also - comfortable chairs, dedicated catalogue terminal, and a decent subtitute for plastic covers...

You are right, Flowers, about the Bodleian scheme - it seems to have neither rhyme nor reason and I have no idea how they ever find anything. But they do - most of the time...

Also, all libraries should have those vacuum chute thingies - the books should be called up from stacks by the librarians and arrive through a chute, popping out into a whizzing trolley system which would trundle gently up to the checkout desk. Elderly readers could also use it for transport around the library.
 
 
Squirmelia
14:41 / 13.10.03
Something I found irritating, age about 16 or 17, was that I wasn't allowed to join the local library until I was 18, unless I had a parent/guardian present. Maybe this was only applicable in certain libraries, or has changed by now though.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:29 / 13.10.03
Squirmelia- That's a legal requirement I believe, until you're legally an adult (which I believe is sixteen for most things now) we need parents/guardians to sign off responsibility.

Kit-Cat- Are you still living in the Outer Church? Libraries often feel the pinch when council tax revenues and whatnot are low, and normally the simplest thing for a library to slash is staffing, which has a knock on effect on opening hours. So flexibility with opening hours is definitely a good thing, I believe a few uni libraries are experimenting with a day and a night shift so they can stay open twenty-four hours. I must admit I'd prefer that to having a day when I might not have to go to work until 1:00 pm but won't close until 10:00 or 11:00 at night...

If you want comfy furniture and books in shutes you should go to Sutton library. Have you seen that Simpsons episode where Springfield High go on a field trip in their rickety falling apart bus then a private school comes past in their state of the art coach? It's like that with Sutton... motherfuckers... < lobs molotov cocktail >
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:23 / 13.10.03
I have to say, when I was working in the anonymous retail outlet I mentioned earlier (as buyer in the book department) my soul was. Actually. Destroyed.

By kids who came down the stairs, into the book department, and would remark to each other, or their parents: "Oh, it's just loads of books down here." And then retreat. Back upstairs to buy their fucking Pokemon shit.

Flowers... it may be a thankless profession, but it's a needed role.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:33 / 14.10.03
Flowers, I thought we were talking about the People's Library of Barbelith here, not actual real libraries... I realise that there are reasons for cutting back opening hours, but I do think it might be counter-productive to close when most people (including school-children) are likely to be able to get to libraries (e.g. my local one, open in the mornings on weekdays and, er, that's it). Mind you, if most library users are pensioners, that might not matter too much...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
11:21 / 14.10.03
Well, based on who I see coming through our doors, during the day we get retired people, mums with young children, au pairs, twenty somethings, businessmen schoolkids who are either bunking or have time off, uni students who are the same, thirtysomethings. The only difference you might get in the afternoons is that a few more kids in school uniforms might come in. Of course, we don't try marching up to someone and go "why are you here?! Too crap to get a job are you?" so most of the adults that come to the library during the day might be well-dressed dole scum but it's difficult to argue that we're not opening at convenient times for the community.

Just for Kit-Cat, all the libraries in the Peoples Republic of Barbelith will be staffed by librarians on crack, so they can be open 24 hours a day and never sleep. Users will have to sign a waiver promising not to sue the service if they are injured or deaded by a member of staff who suddenly snaps.
 
 
Panic
16:33 / 14.10.03
Users will have to sign a waiver promising not to sue the service if they are injured or deaded by a member of staff who suddenly snaps.


Will Clerk-on-Patron violence be allowed if said patron is using library computers to access hardcore porn in front of legitimate patrons? Or if the Patron-To-Be-Violenced is simply there to loiter and stalk female patrons?

Cause that's the biggest problem where I'm at. I maintain there is some kind of Pervert Grapevine, so if we issue just one vicious public beating, word will spread and we'll have no more of it.
 
 
illmatic
07:14 / 15.10.03
Another reason why libraries rule is because they have large stocks of expensive graphic novels which I'd never get to read otherwise. I read almost all the Preacher trades from Clapham libray whne I lived dahn Sarf, and yesterday I got out Animal Man, 100 Bullets and a Hellboy trade from my local. A welcome respite from Crime & Punishment!
 
 
Quantum
12:22 / 15.10.03
Libraries rule. I did an Illmatic and read the entire sandman series from my library, although it took months and I had to order nine of them at 80p a time (cheap! but not free).
I love libraries but cheap books and dumbing down are taking their toll. The main problem with libraries seems to be the miniscule funding they get- my library rarely has new books in I want, although it does have a bazillion Mills and Boon and a Gazillion crap crime novels.

So, the ideal public library for the Island state of Barbelith (twinned with Selfawaria)?

1) No fines, just hard stares.

2) Books in as soon as they are published.

3) Staff on Crack


Book Amnesty when your fines are out of hand would be a realistic alternative to 1), a reader request service to buy in the right new books, a well kept IT system to find the things (that tells you when they're on loan or stolen), maybe a coffe bar.
With the advent of people's network (or whatever it's called), the free public internet access in libraries, there should be a surge of new users who could be tempted to look at books while they're there.

Now all we have to do is stop the powers that be shutting libraries we're on track..
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:47 / 15.10.03
I'd be happy to give you an amnesty Quantum, but what about Frank Evil, your next door neighbour? If he knows that he just has to wait long enough and we'll let him return all his overdue books without any kind of penalty, what's to stop him from taking out the books, waiting for an amnesty, taking out more books, etc etc... a fine has two functions, one of which is try and make you return it today where the fine is x rather than next week when it's x + (7x). It's like recycling. It won't be cost effective to send the bailiffs round to Frank's house if he had a Mills and Boon book that was overdue, but what if Miss Nice, spinster of the parish, really wanted that one title?

Has your library authority really not got it's catalogue on-line for you to check yet? I'm not sure if I've mentioned Project WiLL which searches all the London library catalogues simultaneously. Oops, we're closing! I'll continue this later...
 
  

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