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Sumerian Linguistic Mental Virii, or 'Namshubs'

10:08 / 30.09.03

This thread to discuss the idea of a namshub, in the Sumerian sense, as used by Stephenson in 'Snow Crash' and historically by the Sumerians.

From the book, a namshub is the mental equivalent of a computer virus. The ancient Sumerians apparently used this linguistic magic, does anybody know a lot more about it? I'm off to research it, and will return with the knowledge I glean, shaman style, to share it with the tribe (that's you lot).

But first, I'd like to note the similarity of a 'namshub' and a 'spell'- to me they seem to be different terms for the same thing. A spell from a grimoire is linguistic magic in the same way, and the spoken or written component of a lot of magic does pretty much exactly the same as a namshub. Can anyone correct my understanding that 'Namshub' is simply Sumerian for 'Spell'?

10:14 / 30.09.03

The concept in the book is of a very unsubtle, violent change. I imagine the namshub as a very potent meme. One so strong you don't notice (or care) when you've been infected, and it changes the way you behave. I see it as an engineered meme, created by someone with the intent of changing the world.

Kinda the GM crop of religion.

Nietzsch E. Coyote

10:20 / 30.09.03

In the book the idea relied on the supposed feature of the sumerian language that it bypassed what we think of as the conscious mind.

Other than that I agree with Elseware's take on the matter.

10:26 / 30.09.03

ps. Does anyone have some information on the relationship between namshub and the me? "Me" are the algorythms which Inanna blagged.

Shanghai Quasar

10:36 / 30.09.03

The nam-shub of Enki tells of the god Enki bringing about linguistic disintegration. See also Genesis 11:1-9, when The Lord God splintered the languages of the world.

According to Snow Crash, a nam-shub is an incantation. "A speech with magical force." If we look at the example given (the nam-shub of Enki), I'd agree with Elsie Where in that it seems to be "created by someone with the intent of changing the world."

17:45 / 30.09.03

This thread requires the following link for fun and reference: Margo's Magical Letter Page

Stephenson seemed to think the Sumerian language was based on some kind of real correspondence to natural neurological patterns, and that this gave it the power to reprogram brains with each utterance. Dawkins and other meme-heads think that all signs (i.e. signifiers) do this--in fact that signs are expressions of memes in the same way our bodies are expressions of our genes. I don't like the word meme, but it agrees with the namshub idea: thoughts are brain patterns that change through communication with other brains.

Enki (in the novel) was innovative in that he harnessed the power for his own ends, but in doing so, destroyed his tool. If only one thing is bunk in Snow Crash, I think it's the supposition that Sumerian was significantly different from any other language. It seemed to be a cop-out so the reader didn't expect the protagonists to start throwing namshubs around.

Stephanson pulled a Jaynes in thinking that there was a Great Event during which humanity underwent a significant, irreversable change. It's a misguided grab for an anchoring symbol, similar to the Biblical deluge or the Platonic fall of Atlantis. Differences between us and the Sumerians (or Egyptians, or Mayans, or whatever) can be explained through gradual evolution of language and culture. To claim that a biological change is the most important factor in this evolution is to impose our own reductionist paradigm upon ancient thought.

20:18 / 30.09.03

If only one thing is bunk in Snow Crash, I think it's the supposition that Sumerian was significantly different from any other language.

Sumerian actually might have been significantly different.
It is claimed to be the mother of all other humanoid earth languages, and possibly showed (or lacked) some characteristics that are/are not fundamental for the language concept.....
so I guess one could say that Sumerian was not a language but something different.
Maybe some sort of a color/archetype/frequency symbolic communication method, which has direct violent effects as described in Snowcrash.

btw,Sumeria is Iran/Iraqu.... how about that.
Sumeria the starting point of western civilization (not Africa, as is being argued by modern science)

I have heard someone offer the theory that pre-babylonian/Sumerian society was not capable of experiencing linear time as we do. So maybe the namshub (or the introduction of new language systems designed for the material plane) unrooted human beings from the immaterial world and kinda tied us to the physical plane more permanently, so time all of a sudden dictates our lives.

sorry for going off subject a bit...

21:45 / 30.09.03

I've been re-reading "prometheous rising" by Robert Anton Wilson. It's a bit pop science but there's a bit relevant.

He discusses the human mind as having a core four modes of operation (which ring pretty true) and an additional four we are "evolving into". I'll skip the rant about evolution and cut to the chase.

Modes of operation/mental "circuits" (excuse the dumbed down explanations, I'm a few beers down)

Mode 1: Biosurvival - away from extremes of hot & cold, food good, predators bad etc.

Mode 2: Tribal/pack - the bit which creates the "pecking order" in animal and human society.

Mode 3: Semantic - the bit that can process abstract symbols. Talking and stuff.

Mode 4: Emotional Moral - the bit that goes "ooo, I shouldn't do that" and "Don't talk to her she's a hippy"

Mode 5-8: More dubious spiritual stuff, possibly wise, I'm still thinking about it.

ANYHOW, now I'm through the backstory, My point is that the namshub was the movement between 2 and 3. Moving from being very smart pack animals to actually being verbal, symbol processing creatures.

Now I think about it, the shift from 3 to 4 would be gaining a "knowledge of good and evil". Hmm, maybe time to read genesis yet-a-fucking-gain.

05:26 / 01.10.03

Aye, the Fall was the descent into duality, the beginning of self-reference. Babel was the splitting of tongues, the Namshub of Enki.