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Moving threads to different forums

08:10 / 29.09.03

Dear friends at the Barbelith Organization,

Yesterday you moved my Does humanist egalitarianism stagnate evolution? topic to the Laboratory, and I was wondering why you decided to turn my political thread into scientific mumbo jumbo. I went along with it for the ride, (turning over that new leaf and fun) but it bothered me that a post intended to discuss the political areas of transhumanism was moved to the science store.

What gives?

Sincerely,
Miss Ragel "Q" Hinewater

We're The Great Old Ones Now

09:19 / 29.09.03

That's not a bad question. Although the thread is scietific in origin, I think it reaches all over the place. It seems a bit premature to move the topic to the Lab. I know that we shouldn't consider the Lab a place devoid of political wrangling, but likewise it's a mistake to think the Headshop and the Switchboard shouldn't have to contend with science.

09:31 / 29.09.03

I used to find myself in this situation rather a lot when I tried to discuss things like the cultural role of the doctor. Because some subjects can be classed extremely broadly (and superficially) under the 'science' banner, they tend to be moved out of the Head Shop.

I guess it relates to how posters perceive individual forums. There's a tendency to start very general sociocultural/political topics in the Head Shop because that seems the best way to ensure a range of suitably generalised replies - while the Laboratory (and the Switchboard) is, I think, viewed as a sort of 'science geek' backwater.

It'd be nice to change this, but I'm not sure how. Any thoughts?

09:41 / 29.09.03

I think there are two points to contend with here. One is that anything remotely about science is considered innappropriate outside the Lab - so, for instance, threads on global warming would usually be moved out of the Switchboard. I don't think I agree with that practice.

The second point is that the Lab is dominated by rather dull "look at this its new" threads and so a thread with wider political or social ramifications does the forum some good. This is a stronger argument.

The thing is, if we say that a thread about Transhumanism isn't going to be put in the lab, then we may well end up with a pretty dead and uniteresting forum. That said, I think that threads should be allowed to run for a while in the forum that the thread starter chooses. Also, it might be good for moderators to declare that they intend to move a thread. Perhaps link to a specific thread in the policy from the thread in question? If so, it might be useful to have sticky threads that do not move down.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

11:58 / 29.09.03

I'm all for having more of this sort of discussion in the Lab. I sometimes feel that's what it lacks, but I´m not equal to the task of getting it started myself. I also feel that there's definately a place in the Lab for a good solid thread on transhumanism, but this thread doesn't really look very Lab-y to me. Although there's a bit of Theory of Evolution 101 happening in there, I'd have to say that the direction the thread is going in has less to do with the nuts and bolts of transhumanism and more to do with the thinking around it. Headshoppyness, in other words.

Does anyone mind if I move it back? Or should we wait now, and see how it develops?

12:09 / 29.09.03

I don't know. I think the issues raised in that thread are as much Lab friendly as they are Headshop friendly. Isn't the proper place for a discussion about the issues around a science topic in the science forum? If not, that makes the science forum pretty damn dull.

12:26 / 29.09.03

This is the perennial problem with threads exploring the more general "thinking around" on-the-face-of-it 'sciencey' subjects. There's a case to be made for keeping these threads in the Laboratory in the hope that they attract more of the same. The Headshop shouldn't have a monopoly on loosely structured (but still quite, um, granular) theory...

We're The Great Old Ones Now

12:51 / 29.09.03

My feeling would be to move it back, let it grow into whatever it grows into, and then move it to the Lab if that's necessary or if the thread reaches a point where it can be used to germinate a more exciting series of discussions in the Lab. At the moment, putting it in the Lab is likely to mean that it doesn't take off, or if it does, it will be more likely to be about evolution and scientific nuts and bolts than about the relationships between science, society, and self-identity, which is where it seems to want to go.

Tryphena Absent

13:19 / 29.09.03

Leave it in Laboratory. The thread boils down to a discussion of evolution and the science behind it, it's certainly being treated as such and thus fits within the forum it's been moved to. This hasn't been framed as philosophical, it's really coming from a social science rather than cultural frame, so leave it in the forum that could do with a bit of a kick. There's no reason we can't talk about human relationships as well and headshop's got more discussion at the moment.

14:30 / 29.09.03

Exactly, Anna.

When you started the thread, Rage, it was with the intention of discussing the political/social ramifications of the defeat of natural selection—and that would indeed be Head Shop territory.

However, your initial premise rested on a particular set of assumptions about what evolution and natural selection are, what they do, and how they work. And those assumptions, as it turns out, are not as solid as they first seem: so in order to fully explore your premise, we need to fully explore the assumptions behind it—the science that makes the politics work. The Lab is the best place to do this, I think.

Understandably, you feel like your thread has been hijacked: but I think that these are important issues to discuss. We all use, in our day to day lives, the language of evolutionary science: we talk about adapting and natural selection and the gene pool. But we talk about these concepts with very little knowledge as to wht they mean. I think the Lab thread can act as a corrective to that.

Perhaps what's in order is a new Head Shop thread, with links to the Lab thread, with the remit to explore the political ramifications of the science?

14:49 / 29.09.03

Y'know, on phBB boards, when a thread gets moved between fora, it leaves behind a place holder that refers people browsing the original forum to the new forum. You click on the old title in the same way (except it says "moved" at the front of it) and you wind up in the same thread in the new forum.

16:03 / 29.09.03

Hello everyone. I proposed the move into the Laboratory, and I'm frankly quite surprised by the reaction. I would have thought this thread obvious Laboratory material - it was a discussion based upon whether evolution had stopped and what the ethical / political consequences might be for arguing that - or indeed its opposite. It was my understanding of the group arrangements that a thread about political philosophy would be put in the Head-shop rather than the Switchboard (which is more current / international affairs based and less theoretical) and that something that was about based upon an understanding or attempt to interpret science would be best placed in the Laboratory.

I don't actually consider moving something to the Laboratory a particular insult! I think it should be a profoundly interesting forum and that it's not at the moment because people are going 'if it's about thinking, then it goes in the Head Shop' and 'if it's about politics it goes in the Switchboard', where actually there's a considerable amount of theoretical and ethical thinking that goes on in the sciences which feeds into a lot of political debates... It's discucssion of that stuff that's what the LAboratory is for! Not just pointing towards particularly intriguing gadgets...

16:39 / 29.09.03

I don't think it is an insult - but it might be worthwhile canvassing opinion on how we all view the different Barbelith forums, with a view to clarifying what should happen where.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

16:53 / 29.09.03

I just think it's a shame to get too bound up in clear demarcation between fora - it strikes me as a repeat of the Academe's inability to deal with cross-discipline topics. Maybe the thread as Rage started it is, strictly speaking, a Lab post. However, she put it in the Headshop, and in the Headshop it's likely to axquire a more theoretical and critical tone. It always bugs me when things move out of the Headshop before they've had a chance to evolve into Headshop threads from more specific beginnings.

I don't know. I have a cold and I can't get this idea straight in my head. Help, someone.

19:14 / 29.09.03

On the other hand, migrating threads are cool as they canbring life to an otherwise stale topic by tossing it in front of a different audience.

However, in these cases, it would be better ettiquite to post in the thread that it is to be moved, and give some time for people to be aware of that or protest. That's for cases like this one where its not an easy call where it belongs, mind you.

20:59 / 29.09.03

I personally don't think this function should be up to moderators. The poster usually understands where they're posting to and want it that way. If, through the course of the thread (i.e. after 5 or 6 posts at least), there is concensus that the thread should go elsewheere, then it should be moved.

The only agreeable argument in favor of moving threads that I've heard so far is cusm's:
On the other hand, migrating threads are cool as they can bring life to an otherwise stale topic by tossing it in front of a different audience.

Though I still feel that a move should be solely based on concensus and not on the feelings of a moderator or 3.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

22:24 / 29.09.03

Well, how many people, then? Five? Ten? All posters in the thread? There is a trade off between scalability/usability and electronic demcracy here.

The Barbelith voting system is intended to distribute moderation power, but increasing the number of people required to perform a given action also increases the amount of time it takes to do so, and the number of moderation actions requests a given person is offered when they come online. And there is a finite number of regular posters, too.

Tryphena Absent

08:54 / 30.09.03

At the end of the day it comes down to this- how important is it to get a thread precisely in the right place when there is no right place? I'd say not very and especially with one like this, so we should move it to the place that will get on with the subject best. In this case Headshop wasn't it- big deal, it has an unnecessary reputation for being the place where 'deep chat' happens. Why should every thread that leans towards philosophical and cultural theory go there?

Now Rage do you not think that you're being a little capitalist (or perhaps consumerist or even conservative) in your post here. A thread does not belong to the person that started it, it's part of the public realm that is barbelith, this is a communist state you know and you're not allowed the luxuries of the right wing ethic here.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

09:46 / 30.09.03

I personally don't think this function [moving topics] should be up to moderators. The poster usually understands where they're posting to and want it that way. If, through the course of the thread (i.e. after 5 or 6 posts at least), there is concensus that the thread should go elsewheere, then it should be moved.

I can see where you're coming from with this, LVX23, but let me offer you a couple of hypothetical situations.

A newcomer to the board wants to start a thread discussing the TV show, Charmed. Not being familiar with the board she starts it in the Magick, rather than in F,TV&T. Instead of being a discussion on the anitcs of Phoebe, Piper, and co., it becomes a discussion of how TV shows always get magick wrong. Not what our thread starter intended. She, like a number of others, wants it moved to F,TV & T, but one or two other people want to claim it in the name of the Magick.

Another poster happens to be a rep. for Dr. Spunky's Herbal Viagra. He starts a thread extolling the virtues of this fine product in the Lab. Everyone rips the piss and the thread degenerates happily into a bunch of cock jokes. Most people agree that it should move to the Conversation, but the thread starter claims that Dr. Spunky's Herbal Viagra is a scientific breakthrough and worthy of serious discussion.

In each of these, who'd be right? Should someone step in and make a decision, even if it's an unpopular decision?

15:20 / 30.09.03

Well, here's how I'd handle the thread examples above.

Charmed: Since the thread is now a discussion on magick, it should stay in The Magick. If the thread starter just wanted to talk about Phoebe's tits (I swear, bra's are illegal in that show some weeks), they would be better served by starting a new thread in F&TV. Leave the old one where it is. No harm, no foul.

Viagra: Since the original thread was more an ad than a discussion, which has since degenerated into rightful mocking, move it to the Conversation where the cock jokes can continue until everyone gets it out of their system. If Dr. Spunky can keep his discussion to the effects and study of his Viagra in a more acedemic then evangelical sense, he can try again with a new thread in the Lab. The mod moving the thread should explain this to him in PM.

*raps gavel*

07:41 / 02.10.03

I posted the thread to the Switchboard.

Read: political aspects of transhumanism. Switch. Board.

Tryphena Absent

08:41 / 02.10.03

I assumed you'd posted it to Headshop because someone mentioned the forum above. I wasn't online in the time between your posting of the thread and its movement- perhaps you should be more specific in your posts Rage and include the name of the original forum next time you decide to discuss a topic movement. I don't think it's a Switchboard topic really since that forum presently leans more towards current affairs - transhumanism is a philosophical/cultural theory, evolution a scientific one and political implications are surely a result of these things rather than the major cause of them. Thus the assumption you'd originally placed it in Headshop.

It is time for you to start to clarify what you're saying. You assume things all the time, you assume that we will understand what you mean when you say certain words but give no explanation, you appear to assume that a certain approach alone is rebellious. Rage, we're not psychic, the brightest person on this earth can't know what something is without some kind of description... you're as much responsible for our misunderstanding of your aims as we are.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

10:10 / 02.10.03

You didn't mention the switchboard in your initial post, Rage. There's not some moderator telepathy by which we all know exactly what the others have done. Can't. Read. What. You. Didn't. Write.

19:02 / 02.10.03

I keep thinking you guys have superpowers.

Could have been more specific: just figured some of you had seen it in the Switchboard initially.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

16:10 / 03.10.03

We do.

Just not those superpowers.