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Disputations on Dutch History and US Society

 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
08:50 / 25.02.02
For all issues concerning the history of the Low Countries, the development of the Nederlandse mindset, and its imapct on the self-construction of the United States of America.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:50 / 25.02.02
This collection of pieces on aspects of the relationship between the Netherlands and the US is interesting and seems (to me at any rate) to be on the level and largely accurate. I think it's interesting that the writer sees the tolerance of the Dutch trading companies (specifically the West India company) as the reason for the initial tolerant atmosphere of New Amsterdam - despite the intolerance of the Calvinist Pieter Stuyvesant... and that the British settlements surrounding the Dutch ones were far more intolerant. The implication, I suppose, is that commerce bred tolerance (partly because it was practical) whereas religious settlements tended to be far stricter. Obviously this view glosses over a great many unpleasant aspects of European commercial activity - exploitation, brutal behaviour, and so on, but it's still worth considering.

More on this later - my head is all stuffed up with cold and I'm not thinking very clearly...
 
 
grant
19:33 / 25.02.02
What's the basic theology of the Hugenots? Was it basically the same movement in France and Holland?

Whatever happened to the Dutch East India Company? Is it similar to what corporations are doing today?

How did the Dutch Calvinists start out so radical and become so reactionary?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
21:10 / 27.02.02
Oh, crikey, not sure if I can do this (religious history outside the UK is not really my forte). Uh. Huguenots are specifically French Calvinist Protestants, but the issue is muddied by the fact that they were persecuted for much of the later sixteenth and seventeenth centuries by the (Catholic and often Counter-Reforming) French administrations - and were exiled to the United Provinces and England (the Spitalfields silk workers were mostly of Huguenot descent).

The Dutch East India Company was an independent corporation of merchants who traded with the Spice Islands (the Moluccas) and the East Indies, taking out finished goods such as textiles and bringing back raw spices, which were extremely valuable at the time. The compnay functioned by establishing 'factories', i.e. trading posts - not colonies - which, though they were established by agreement with the local potentates, were under Dutch jurisdiction and were fortified, etc. So - yes, the company did function in much the same way as a corporation which has a plant in an EPZ... but they were trading companies rather than manufacturing companies or contractors, if that makes any sense. As for what heppened to the Dutch East India Company, I'm not sure, but I do know that after the early 1700s their trade declined dramatically as the trade of the English East India Company expanded.

Dutch Calvinists and being radical or reactionary. Gah. I think a common mistake here is to think that religious radicalism is the same as social radicalism, and it isn't... If you look at the (rather overstated, but they will serve) five points of Calvinism:

- that fallen man was totally unable to save himself (Total Depravity)
- that God's electing purpose was not conditioned by anything in man (Unconditional Election)
- that Christ's atoning death was sufficient to save all men, but efficient only for the elect (Limited Atonement)
- that the gift of faith, sovereignly given by God's Holy Spirit, cannot be resisted by the elect (Irresistible Grace)
- that those who are regenerated and justified will persevere in the faith (Perseverance of the saints)

... well, you can see that it is certainly radical when compared to the Catholic Church, but that its tenets could be used in a very conservative way among members of a community... because if one was a member of the elect, one was justified in maintaining the existing order, and also people who were not of the elect (the reprobate) were definitively damned... And moreover, a religios movement can be radical in terms of its opposition to the Roman Church (or whichever church you care to mention) by within itself it can be deeply conservative.

Does that help? I know it's not very clear, but it might be a start.
 
 
grant
16:52 / 28.02.02
Yeah, actually, it's nice - but what I'm most curious about Calvinism is how it started as such a radical, anti-authoritarian idea, got a whole bunch of people kicked out of places, and then became so authoritarian and oppressive when allowed to go its own way.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:34 / 01.03.02
Well - because it was a fairly hardline religious sect, I suppose, and once its members were free of persecution they could go about creating the society they wanted - which happened to be pretty authoritarian (and let's face it, very few hardline religious communities are not). Calvinism wasn't really anti-authority per se, just (like Lutheranism) opposed to the hegemony of Rome and its corruption.
 
 
grant
12:32 / 01.03.02
I can't help but wonder if that's the secret to their longevity....
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:38 / 01.03.02
What, being authoritarian, or being opposed to Rome?
 
 
grant
13:32 / 01.03.02
Being hardline.
I mean, I'm sort of used to thinking of evolution as the key to a movement's survival - openness is its own reward.
But reality doesn't always seem to operate that way.
(The biggest parochial elementary school in my hometown is Dutch Calvinist - they're alive and well, and teaching kids fossils got put in the ground by Satan.)
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:43 / 01.03.02
Hah!

Except that really isn't very amusing, is it... I think we would have different perspectives on what the state of Protestant Christianity is right now, because the default setting for Britain (certainly for S-E middle England) is secular; but your point about religion and evolution not really going together seems good to me; part of the reason the Anglican Church is in such a mess at the moment is because it can't decide whether to be progressive or reactionary and as a result has sooo many internal tensions about homosexuality, the Bible, the Book of Common Prayer, and so on and so forth, that it doesn't really function as a unified body at all. And so authoritarian control would restrain that divisive impulse...
 
 
grant
17:45 / 01.03.02
So -- do you think there was a similar hidden authoritarianism at the heart of the "Dutch trader" phenomenon?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:20 / 04.03.02
Not really... hm. AFAIK traders from the Low Countries had been trading for donkey's years by the time of the Reformation, so the question one would have to ask is whether their trading behaviour altered significantly as a result of other factors (in this case religion), and I think the answer to that is probably no... establishing factories in trading posts had been done for years and by plenty of other cultures (in Byzantium, for example, where the Italian trading cities had 'quarters' of their own). The traders were not colonists, and the factories didn't employ indigenous or local people (in the way that manufacturing plants do today - they would undoubtedly have employed locals as servants, interpreters, go-betweens and so on). That's not to say they didn't exploit the local people - they undoubtedly did (for example, giving cheap printed cloth in exchange for valuable spices). They also built churches and so on, but I do not think they could be said to be authoritarian in terms of the way they related to local peoples.

Probably the factor in trade that caused most damage to indigenous populations was the competition between England and the United Provinces (through their trading companies) for the spice trade - which exacerbated the tendencies towards exploitation, increased military presence and the commandeering of land to act as fortresses, claims towards 'ownership' of the Moluccas, and so on.

If there is a hidden authoritarianism in Dutch trading, it must be located in the traders themselves rather than in the activity of trading, because the Dutch and English traders behaved in very similar fashions. Mind you, since both of them were maritime nations at this point (and England went through a fairly authoritarian phase under the Commonwealth, and the American colonists did tend to be Nonconformists...) there may be a tie-up there. I am inclined to think, however, that the United Provinces had a great deal more invested in the idea of trading commerce as a founding Batavian virtue than the English did (there is an awful lot of English literature from the late 1690s onwards dealing with the degeneracy and luxury of commercial wealth as opposed to landed wealth - a trope which isn't really present in Dutch culture). I prefer to see the trading and the authoritarianism as factors which are separate strands which become mashed together in the American colonies, I think.
 
 
grant
18:58 / 04.03.02
Yeah, I was wondering about that too (America as trading + authoritarianism).

I'm still curious, though, if there was some sort of "code" or "creed" by which the traders lived, some sort of social rule-set which made them succeed. Something that made the exploitation "ok".

I'm also curious where (& when) they failed, since there was never a Dutch Empire on the level of the British Empire. Hell, they basically cut South Africa loose in the 1700s.
 
 
alas
12:13 / 05.03.02
maybe "failed" is the wrong word; look at Dutch society today, its wealth and social progressiveness (well, ok, very recent rightist tendencies aside) .... is it possible that they realized more quickly than other Europeans the messiness of empire building? (speaking from abject ignorance, here, mind, so be gentle ...)
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:38 / 05.03.02
Right, this is where I come thoroughly unstuck, as I really can't remember very much about the Dutch in the later C18 and never knew much about their colonies to begin with... ask me again in a year or so...

I'm not aware of any codes of conduct for traders in general, but of course that's not to say they didn't exist... in practice, however, I imagine that the captain of a vessel would have dictated what happened in this field as in others. I don't think the early-modern mind would have had a great deal of room for the idea of exploitation as a bad thing... by which I mean that trade was the thing, and it was necessary for them to be very competitive to survive, and they weren't too particular about methods (c.f. massacre of English factors by the Dutch at Amboyna, 1623).

How the Dutch East India company (VOC) fell... I don't really know the ins and outs, but I guess that what happened is something along these lines: VOC has a stranglehold on the spice trade and maintains it in the face of competition from the English east India Company. So the English concentrate on getting hold of some of the routes, e.g. those in India under the Moghul empire, and have a great deal of success (this was done through diplomacy at first, IIRC) with the eventual result that (late C18) the Moghul empire itself was controlled by the EIC... in the meantime, the success of the English and other trading nations (specifically the Portuguese) in other trading areas meant that they were able to build enough profit to buy up spices in Europe, the VOC's trade lost much of its value, and the Dutch economy stagnated... a situation exacerbated by the increase in value of manufactured goods from NW Europe in the very late C18, and also by the booming English economy centred on the Exchange in London.

In that climate, I would hazard a guess that the Dutch colonies were left alone not out of any desire to avoid the problems of and with empire-building, but more becasue the United Provinces were over-extended and couldn't afford to maintain centralised control. BUT I could well be horribly wrong - that's just a guess.

Oh - VOC wound up in 1799.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
16:33 / 05.03.02
Hrm, history's not my strong suit, but hey, it's my country. I've run some quick searches, and it looks like KCC is pretty much spot on.
Mostly the Dutch just got started earlier, so they snapped up some of the choice cargoes. The VOC was given lots of rights like having it's own army and fleet, and being able to declare war. Funky stuff like that. Throw in some basic exploitation which everyone seems to have been capable of at the time (How much could you care about people you only heard about second-hand once every six months or so), and you 've got a rather profitable company. What got it in the end seems to have been a mixture of corruption, revolutions and getting outnumbered by the English and French.

Like I said, just a quick search, but I felt I should stick a patriotic oar in. Might look some more later.
 
  
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