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Superman Question

 
 
eric minutes
17:42 / 20.09.03
The Claremont/Byrne run on X-Men is regarded as the best stories for those charaters....the Frank Miller Daredevil...Peter David on Hulk etc....I don't really know much about Superman,,other than what I've read in Morrison's JLA....I want to get into the character,,,but I have no idea where to start...is there a writer or a run that is thought of as essntail reading for the character...???Your help would be much appreciated.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
20:20 / 20.09.03
This is such a huge question.

See, I myself first saw Supes in print in the post 200th issue run in JLA. He was OK. Then I collected Byrne's stuff. Now I adore the Curst Swan rendition. I'm mostly basing this on the artist as what I've seen storywise has been mainly dire. The sixties are very fun, the eighties are very sci-fi and action-y (under Byrne), the 90's are quite horrible (all I saw was the Death and Return stuff), though I've heard mixed reviews of Jeph Loeb's run on the title. He's a character that so many people love, but few read. LOADS of recent Superman trades are out there. So if you like that, you're in luck. The sixties are harder to find, but there are nice trades of at least the 50's and 60's 'best of' and the Bizarro collection.

So, I suggest getting the Best of Super-man. There's enough there to get you started. Even an great Alan Moore story. Also, the Byrne stuff will tell you if you like his version or not. I myself recently repurchased the Man of Steel and the first few Byrne Supes issues (though I think his best was Action)... and think they're only OK. I'd sell em to you for a song if you like. Either way, DC is reprinting the run in trades very soon.

I also really like Jerry Ordway. He drew the Planetary/JLA cross-over. His Superman is very nice. A kinda modern Curt Swan.
 
 
Krug
03:34 / 21.09.03
Superman hasn't really been given the treatment Batman's had.
There's no Dave McKean/Grant Morrison collaboration.
There is no Killing Joke or Year One or the Alan Moore annual which is an excellent Alan Moore story.

I tried to get into him and feel that he has no less potential than Batman but ultimately found nothing drop dead beautiful.

"Whatever happened to the man of tomorrow?" and "For the Man who has everything" are decent Alan Moore stories and I own both of them (and want to rid of them) though a lot of people think they're terrific so it's probably opinion.

I read Joe Kelly and Jeph Loeb's runs for around two years from the time they started but them I quit.

The only memorable story is Kelly's Action Comics #775 which I haven't read in a year and seem to have misplaced my copy but it's the best superman story in my memory.

Definitely worth picking up and it might have been collected. It sums up why Superman is Superman. The definitive Superman story that anyone who has a remote interest in the character should pick up.
It has this Superman versus an Authority knockoff team battle in it and as silly as the debate was, it's so much better than Ellis' Authority run.
 
 
Spaniel
09:21 / 21.09.03
"Whatever happened to the man of tomorrow?" and "For the Man who has everything" are decent Alan Moore stories and I own both of them (and want to rid of them) though a lot of people think they're terrific so it's probably opinion.

Here's another opinion: I bloody love 'em. Try and pick up the collected trade. Best Superman I've ever come across.
 
 
EvskiG
14:55 / 21.09.03
Single best story: "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow," by Alan Moore. Perfectly summarizes and encapsulates the Silver/Bronze Age Superman in two issues.

Other very good Silver/Bronze Age issues:

Siegel/Swan/Klein: "The Death of Superman," Superman 149

Dorfman/Swan: "Superman-Red and Superman-Blue," Superman 162

Hamilton/Swan/Klein: "The Team of Luthor and Brainiac," Superman 167

Hamilton/Swan: "The Composite Superman," World's Finest 142

Best run: personally, I like the Maggin/Bates/Swan run of the 70s, but that's what I grew up with.

Siegel & Shuster's run in the 30s was fantastic (Superman the left-wing populist hero), and Siegel, Binder and Hamilton did great work with Boring and Swan in the 50s and 60s.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
14:57 / 21.09.03
Essential Superman?

I would first go with Superman Archives #1 and 2, when the character was still fresh, exciting, and almost random in how the stories were told. It's funny to see Superman as a liberal crusader and New Deal warrior in his first appearances, before turning from beating up wife beaters and crooked businessmen who steal from their workers to someone who fights mad scientists (in one case in the middle of a story), and it shows just how the character went from being very person to very Company Owned.

I would then have to point to the Kirby stuff did with Superman in the early 70's (with Forever People #1 being the best Superman story up until the 80's and Alan Moore's work). Even his Jimmy Olsen stuff had a crackling energy to it and tons of new concepts and ideas that made Superman interesting, which he wasn't through the 50's and 60's.

I would then recommend the 40's cartoons, which were FAR better than the comics, which had already degenerated to gimmick plots and formula crap.

In a way, Superman as a concept is far better than most of the stories done for the character, and at its CORE, it should be a wish fulfillment type of book for kids to read and think "Gee, I wish I could fly, be strong, etc..." The reason the books doesn't resonate with kids anymore is that they have lost the esential wish fulfillment in favor of Marvel Soap Opera stuff.

The core? Clark Kent, mild mannered nebbish stands in for the reader, who can indentify with the "If they just knew the truth about me, they'd like me, respect me and love me."

If they ever get THAT back in the character, then the books will start to become relevant and entertaining again.
 
 
sleazenation
15:25 / 21.09.03
Actually i'd say that most of the key superman stories aren't superman stories - they are stories that involve supermen analogue characters such as Miracleman...
 
 
eric minutes
17:43 / 21.09.03
WOW guys,,,,thanks for your help....I think I'll start by finding those Alan Moore stories,,,and then take it from there...were they one shots or something?? Kind of a shame Grant won't get his hands Superman anytime soon...he's been ready for him since Animal Man met Superman on that roof top way back when(great scene)...I also recall Grant saying he was most inspierd by the silver age stories...any ideas which ones he might have been talking about?? Any further suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Peace.
 
 
sleazenation
19:03 / 21.09.03
hasnt there been a collection of aan moore's DCu stuff recently?
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
19:59 / 21.09.03
I woudl say that if you want to read the kind of stories Grant was talking about, you'd want to pick up "Superman in the Fifties" and "Superman in the Sixties", as they have a good crosssection of the kind of stuff being done with the character back then.

But beware, the stories are ALL based on some kind of gimmick-y plot twist and are so formula driven it's hard to read more than a couple in each sitting.

And for Alan Moore's stuff there is a Collection of "Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow" that runs about $6, and a "DC Universe Stories of Alan Moore" that came out a few months ago.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
20:02 / 21.09.03
One other weird thing...John Byrne said in a recent column that he feels that "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomrorrow" was the worst Superman story ever told.

While he back up his opinion very well, it just proves to me why Byrne has no idea what makes a good comic book story anymore, and why his Superman just seems so bland and lifeless, other than the actual revamp itself.
 
 
dlotemp
00:20 / 22.09.03
You might want to do an Internet search for Elliot S! Maggin and related interviews. He wrote many great modern Superman stories in comics and paperbacks, and has a great understanding of the character. In fact, I was recently rereading an interview with him in which he discussed his treatment of the character. He explained that Denny O'Neil, former Batman line editor and famous writer of Green Lantern/Green Arrow, preceded him as writer on Superman, and that Denny had written what Maggin felt was one of the best runs of the book in some time [this was the early 70s]. But Denny had a difficult time with the character because he felt he was too powerful; Maggin claim that O'Neil actually whined about this all the time. Subsequently, O'Neil had a difficult time creating legtimate dillemmas and problems for the character, and fell back to the rather trite position of de-powering the character. Maggin felt that Supes' powers shouldn't be a detriment to writing the character, rather he felt it placed Superman into a different category of stories. His real adversary was his conscious. Since he could do anything, he needed to constantly confront the morality of his decisions and choices. Or to say it another way, he passed the buck on the powers problem to Supes: let the character figure out what is the best way to use his powers and let that be the story. Maggin noted Mark Waid's KINGDOM COME as a good example of this treatment.

As for some recommendations:

One of my fave issues is Superman #300 from1976, a story called SUPERMAN 2001. It was an "imaginary story" that posited that Supes's capsule was first discovered by an American Naval contingent, who were racing a rival Soviet group. Supes' becomes a political pawn until he is able to fake his death. He then assumes the role of mild, mannered Clark Kent and tries to assemble a real life. It's a wonderful take on the concept and gets to the humanity of the character.

Superman #400 is also a great anthology book with stuff from Maggin, Steranko and others. A nice smattering of creators with their take on what makes the icon great.

You could check out the Superman in the [Fifties, Sixties, or Seventies] to get a taste of the character from those periods. I checked out reviews for the Seventies anthology and several of the reviewers posted their own preferred stories from that era. You might want to check those comments for ideas.
 
 
dlotemp
00:24 / 22.09.03
Also, I recommend JLA #6-7 in which Superman, when he had electrical powers, has to correct the position of the moon and tackles Angels. Arguably one of the best Superman moments of recent vintage, and not even in his own book! I believe the issues were collected in the second JLA trade. Unfortunately, I don't know the name of the trade.
 
 
A
02:29 / 22.09.03
That would be JLA: American Dreams. You're right. Great Supes moments.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:55 / 22.09.03
Interesting article on Superman and Jewish contributions to the comic industry:

(Very cool, by the way, that Kal-El is partially re-worked Hebrew for "All that is God". I never knew that! (one comment in response posts under the story pointed out that Kal-El isn't literal Hebrew for "All that is God," it's tweaked just a bit.

www.newsarama.com

JOURNEY INTO COMICS: PROPS FROM UNUSUAL CORNERS
by Michael Sangiacomo

The New York Times had a recent Sunday story praising the art of Jack Kirby, too bad the art used was decidedly non-Kirby Ultimate X-Men. Right there on the jump was a story of a nostalgic trip to a comic shop. Both articles were pretty lightweight, though it was nice to see a photo of Brian Bendis’ amazing Alias comic with the second article. News about the new Batman movie, the various Marvel movies and an occasional business story about comics pop up like pimples on prom night.

But perhaps the most surprising story was the on the cover of the Fall 2003 issue of the Reform Judaism magazine: “How Jews Created The Comic Book Industry.” The entire cover was a five-panel comic style depicting two Jewish kids named Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster creating a super-hero drawn by Jon Bogdanove.

[the full article is now online, at: http://www.uahc.org/rjmag/03fall/comics.shtml ]

Arie Kaplan’s article was surprisingly good, amazingly accurate and thought-provoking. It even taught me something new that I bet would be a surprise to many folks: Superman’s real name, Kal-El is Hebrew for “All that is God.”

Kaplan writes about how Jews like Siegel and Shuster; Spirit creator Will Eisner, Marvel godfathers Stan Lee (Lieber) Jack Kirby (Jacob Kurtzburg), “Batman” creator Bob Kane (Bob Kahn) and “MAD Magazine’s” Al Jaffe and Dave Berg were instrumental in shaping the young industry. Of course, those are just a few of the many Jewish men, and a few women, who left a mark.

Jaffe explained that in the 1930s newspapers and advertising agencies were not hiring Jews, so they “drifted into the comic book business” because comic publishers were mainly Jewish. The lengthy article takes the readers right through the 1950s to the Frederic Wertham witch hunts that nearly destroyed the industry. The final proof of the influence of Jews on the industry is in the simple fact that in 1933 Max Gaines (Ginzberg) created the comic book. He was trying to come up with a way to make money to feed his family, including his son William Gaines who would later found EC Comics and MAD.

The story says that Max began reading his beloved collection of Sunday comics to raise his spirits and come up with the notion that if he enjoyed reading the collected Sunday comics in one sitting, others would too. He persuaded Eastern Publications to collect the Sunday comics of characters like “Mutt and Jeff” and package them as a comic book. In February, 1934, Famous Funnies #1 landed on newsstands and...well you know what happened after that. The article’s author, Arie Kaplan, is a writer for MAD.
 
 
raelianautopsy
17:03 / 22.09.03
In defense of post-crisis Superman: I notice that everyone is only reccomending pre-crisis/Silver Age older Supermans. I don't think these are neccessarily the best incarnations. Superman's biggest flaw isn't just that he's too powerful (although that most definately IS too a major flaw), its that creators are afraid and reluctant to evolve the character, which is inevatibly a problem for all super-heroes. They change their costume and premise temporarilly, only for it to fail and go back to the fifty-year norm. The onmipotent, father-of-all-heroes Superman can only work in titles like JLA or guest starring in other's books, but he never seems to work in his own solo title. Solo Superman must be depowered and Clark Kent must be more humanized in order for Superman to remain interesting. Regrettably, DC Comics doesn't seem to agree with this evolution: the latest of the endless revitalizations of Superman seems to be a "back to the basics" format yet again.

I think John Byrne's biggest problem with his retelling was not changing Superman enough and having too much of the boring Silver Age non-relatable Clark Kent retained. Doesn't the success of Smallville show how great a well-characterized and relatably human Clark Kent is? Smallville is the first really popular Superman franchise in many, many years. Admittadly, the first season's villian-of-the-week formant was annoying, but the second season (and hopefully the third) is wonderful.

The best thing about the post-crisis mythos is undoubtedly the retconned Lex Luthor (although he was the idea of Marv Wolfman and not Byrne's). All you Golden Age afficianados must agree that it is a positive change for Superman to fall back on the original fighting of big business corruption. For this reason the early Byrne issues are worth checking out to see the first of the new Lex Luthor.

Newer issues I like: First of all, while the Death and Return era was in all ways a shallow 90's type unneccassary crossover, it was still a fun read, and isn't that ultimately the whole point of superheroe comics anyways? Right now I'd reccomend any of Joe Kelley's Action Comics issues which are great, a perfect blend of interesting and complicated sci-fi/fantasy action. Too bad Kelley is apperently getting booted of the title. I usually don't like Jeph Loeb, with his wannabe epic but just ends up being hokey -style, but Superman/Batman seems pretty good so far. I have also been partial to any outer-space stories, which are a good way for a too powerful Superman to fit in. The Trial of Superman or Exile trades are good examples of this. And now I totally contradict myself by wholeheartedly loving and reccomending Mark Waid's Superman: Birthright, which is the antithesis of what I've been talking about, but its just written so damn well.
 
 
dlotemp
17:49 / 22.09.03
I've been banging my head trying to think of some good, recent Superman issues and it has been difficult, if only because the 90s books diffused many elements across the 3 or 4 different series. I did like the Death and Return of Superman stories, like raelianautopsy, if only because they had some great pacing, high action, and a certain amount of unpredictableness. I don't think they are necessarily great Superman stories only because Supes' character is often one-dimensional, sometimes two-dimensional, in the books. Heck, he's physically missing for half of the Return storyline! Still, they were fun books.

One of my favorite single issues of recent vintage was Superman #131 from January 1998. It is largely a Lex Luther story though delving into his past as a foster child with a chilling ending.

Speaking of Joe Kelly, I thought he did a nice little story for Action Comics #786, plus great cover by Pascual Ferry, in which Supes is abducted by an alien race who needs a saviour, but they neglect to take into account their red sun. Supes has to repel alien invaders before he loses his powers. But I suppose that is a throw back to the Supes with no powers conceit. Still, I thought it was a nice story since it does a nice job discussing inspiration and spirit.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:40 / 22.09.03
I really dug the Lex Luthor bio issue you speak of, dlotemp. It was one of the last great things Dan Jurgens wrote before he started his descent into hackdom, there to join the formerly very talented and innovative John Byrne.

I loved the Death & Return of Superman for those same reasons: great, fun ,action-packed, clever (I liked the device of the 4 Supermen - totally new at the time - and the mystery for you, the reader to solve of which, if any, of the 4 was really him?), mainstream superhero comics. And those 2 months where all the titles were published before the 4 Supermen showed up, where it was all character work about the supporting characters dealing with Supes' death, were really cool. There was one Roger Stern-written scene with Bibbo praying at the end of one issue which was particularly touching.
 
 
eric minutes
18:52 / 22.09.03
Thanks all of you who have responded...you've sent me on my way...I'm already collecting Morrison's JLA run...that's what got me craving more Superman....but I have one "BIG" question...I hope some one can explain ...why the fuck does Superman have an electric blue cosutme>??????? I mean....how did they explain this in the comics??
 
 
dlotemp
23:38 / 22.09.03
The blue costume is a sci-fi electronic fabric that happened to be colored blue. Superman had no initial control over his electrical powers and needed the suit as a crutch. Comic-logic.

BTW - another book that should be mentioned is SUPERMAN ADVENTURES, which had some great Supes stories. Mark Millar wrote the book for a stretch, in addition to Scott McLoud and Evan Dworkin. I recommend the first 6 issues in general, featuring Brainiac, Luthor, and the evil imp from the 5th dimension. Also, check out the 2 parter from issues 22-23 featuring a frightening fight with Brainiac. Many of Millar's stories are single issue classics.
 
 
eric minutes
22:47 / 23.09.03
Cool....I've heard that those Mark Millar Superman stories are bad ass...I will definatley check 'em out...I was thinking of getting Birthright...how is it so far?? I hear good things about it.
 
 
EvskiG
00:07 / 24.09.03
The storytelling isn't much, but Birthright is a solid attempt to cut the worst excesses of the Byrne/Post-Crisis era and restore much of the Maggin/Bates era, with a bit of Smallville (the TV show) thrown in.
 
 
moriarty
00:22 / 24.09.03
Heya. We had a great Superman discussion awhile back you might want to check out. Many recommendations.
 
 
moriarty
00:24 / 24.09.03
Bah. Please ignore previous link. Here's the one I meant.
 
 
matsya
02:49 / 24.09.03
If you can find it, and for cheapish, Eliot S! Maggin wrote a Superman novel called "Superman, last son of Krypton" which has some lovely moments of characterisation in it, concerning both Luthor and Superman. Fun stuff.

m.
 
 
EvskiG
03:37 / 24.09.03
Maggin's wrote two Superman novels in the 70s, Last Son of Krypton and Miracle Monday. He also wrote the novelization of Kingdom Come. As matsya said, lots of great characterization of Superman and Luthor.

As a child, I was traumatized when Lois Lane used the term "shitty" in Miracle Monday.
 
  
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