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The once and future board...

  
  

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grant
20:16 / 24.09.03
Posting limit: Yes, we have one, around 40 I think.

Proportional voting: I agree with what you're saying, Lurid, but I think this part pretend you control ten suits is upper-limity in two ways. The obvious way is that ten suits is an awful lot for one person to control... even, I'd think, for a well-organized cadre to control. Because of the not-so-obvious second upper-limit: time.

In order for 10 suits to really cause a ruckus, they'd have to all be logged in at the same time... during a period when there weren't that many other users logged in. I suppose it might be possible for one person to go in expecting trouble, open 10 windows all at once on the same computer and start voting in each one in turn, but that seems like 1. a lot of work, and 2. really obvious if Tom or Cal went looking for it. In other words, it'd probably only happen once.

I do think the main problem would be apathy... most people probably wouldn't bother much with voting, which would separate Them What Cares (for good or ill) from Them What Don't.

But I also think there's a big image-advantage to having a net of moderators this wide. It would really undermine the perception of a "clique". I suppose I'm showing a bias here, but my real feeling (as much as I have one) is that the problem isn't a clique as much as it is the perception of a clique.

I dunno. It'd be an interesting experiment.
 
 
sleazenation
21:07 / 24.09.03
the problem isn't a clique as much as it is the perception of a clique.

And this is where i think there is a problem - as we have seen, accusations of cliqdom in an online group where various participants meet offline are essentialy unprovable either way, which will be seen as proof that evilnastycliques exist from people with enough investment in their own feelings victimhood and can, and will blame anything bad that happens to them on persecution from cliqueworld order.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:40 / 24.09.03
Proportional voting: I agree with what you're saying, Lurid, but I think this part pretend you control ten suits is upper-limity in two ways. The obvious way is that ten suits is an awful lot for one person to control... even, I'd think, for a well-organized cadre to control. Because of the not-so-obvious second upper-limit: time.

Dude - if there's one thing our trolls have demonstrated, it's that they have plenty of time on their hands. On the bright side, I don't think you can be logged in as more than one suit at a time - if you log out on one window, you log out on all of them, and likewise logging back in.
 
 
Linus Dunce
23:11 / 24.09.03
I don't think the side is that bright -- you could probably get around it by using multiple users on your computer.
 
 
Linus Dunce
23:19 / 24.09.03
That's not very clear, is it? I meant setting up multiple e.g. Windows user accounts and switching between them.
 
 
Char Aina
01:08 / 25.09.03
the trolls may have time on their hands, but what they need is not lots of time, it is the ability to slow time down.

to control a vote, you would need to vote faster than everyon else. everyon else has the advantage of controlling only one vote, and therefore can send it much more quickly.
 
 
grant
11:56 / 25.09.03
What toksik said, yes. They'd have to race against everyone else who was online at the time.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:35 / 25.09.03
Lurid: Show me a moderator-free forum and I'll show you somewhere which a week later is full of posts from the Knodge-suit-du-jour ranting about bitches not giving him hot loving. Pointless basically.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:55 / 25.09.03
toksick and grant-- no, they just have to race against everyone who gives a shit, and happens to be online. A concerted effort would still have a good chance of fucking everything up nicely.
 
 
Linus Dunce
14:00 / 25.09.03
Mordant -- And that's assuming they don't know how to write scripts or whatever to do their dirty work for them.
 
 
Char Aina
15:52 / 25.09.03
i take on board the point about programming bots to do it for them...

but i do think people are definitely overestimating the apathy on the 'lith. all the current moderators would be willing to vote, surely, and i know i would when i had the chance.

wouldn't it just be easier to get a guy to do a job?
you know... a cleaner.
 
 
Char Aina
18:18 / 25.09.03
i was recently involved in a bit of a back and forth with nick regarding some of my views on the current shenanigans and the State of the Board.

i am hesitant to comment on these things, as i have been burned in the past, but i am emboldened by the current atmosphere of uncertainty.

firstly,
quoting from a PM to nick;


i am a member of the 'nation' that is barbelith. as a community with no appointed leaders, we naturally have evolved some anyway.
those leaders were who the war was being waged with.
as with all wars, the generals are hard to attack, and so the people and devices they own become targets.

so, yeah, i guess i am at war with anyone who 'bombs' my 'country', but i dont feel i have any actual involvement in the conflict. i am not on the frontline because i have yet to see any reason to join either side.

i dont think you are all making it up, but i do like to have things proved beyond a reasonable doubt before i engage an enemy or take a side. there is an assumption (occasionally it seems at least) that i should know why Mod is a dick, and that i should be as incensed as all of those of you who DO have information that leads to that conclusion.



this, i think is the crux of what pisses a lot of us less informed citizens off.
i realise i can research the problem, but only so far. remember that some of these posts and threads are now in the bin, and as such unavailable for study.


and then, nick inquired about my comments:

“the barbelith elite, royalty, usual suspects, or whatever you like were the only ones in this fight. many of them/you, as is their/your wont, assumed that they/you speak for and represent all of us.”



the assumption that there is a barbelith mindset, a standard or best fit mentality, that's what annoys me. only a little, but still. i dont want the place shut down, but THAT similarity between us may be the only one. the danger is when you assume that i am similar to you in ways not yet discussed.

i feel a little like i am being told i am 'with the terrorists' by some folks when i stand up to be counted, you know?


on the subject of the clicks;

NICK:
But it's sad to think that you can spend almost a year here and post nearly a thousand times, and still think of yourself as on the outside in some way.

so do i. so do i.
i am not sure why i feel this way, but perhaps people like haus telling me that i am worthless to the board in one of his fits of bilious spite is a part of it. (yes, i shopuld be less insecure. sorry.)
perhaps it is because i feel cowed after having arrived here with my ignorance of the board on my sleeve. i am relatively new to the internet, and this place is a part of a learning experience. it's only the second board i have ever been resident on, and i approached it like it was the first one. in the headshop.

you can imagine, i am sure, the kind of language that i met (i dont mean swearing) and perhaps imagine how that felt. hell, maybe you were there, maybe you remember.

i was being more stupid than i would now, but i still to this day am unwilling to invest any time and emotion in a lengthy discourse when i feel it will be ripped to shreds. i feel this would happen whether or not i was being an idiot, and i do not enjoy such aggression.

(yes, i have a bad history, and i understand you will have to imagine i can be erudite and eloquent)


and to finish, i would like to tell you what i do believe.

i think this place is fucking brilliant, and despite in no way smart enough to come up with foolproof way to protect it from the evils of people who want it brought crashing down, i am grateful for the efforts of those who are.

i think tom is one of the greatest people i have never met, and an actual hero of mine. to have created such an interesting place would be enough in itself, but his pleasance and consitent nature is almost godlike.

i think the fiction suit experiment was always a stupid idea in the context of the security of a site like this. if you want to keep out assholes, you have to realise that you cant leave the keys under the mat.

i think there should be more explaining done when things like this happen, to stop us all from wondering what the BigMen behind the HeavyDoors are up to. that would definitely stop anyone from feeling like there was an inner circle of any kind.(well, it would stop me for sure, anyway)
perhaps PMing everyone with a rundown, if thats at all practical, perhaps a locked thread with the problem outlined as clearly as possible.


right.
that was my 12 cents, now let me know why i am wrong and deserve a death in pain that sends my soul straight to hell.

PLEASE.
 
 
Lurid Archive
19:05 / 25.09.03
That is pretty sad, toksik and I'm not sure how to respond to it. Part of your complaint is about Haus and the Headshop and I feel that this is, to some extent, a culture clash. The Headshop operates in a fairly academic style of sometimes harsh argument. As an example of its kind, it is actually quite forgiving, however. To the extent that someone like me who is comfortable with the style, but has very little relevant knowledge, does ok. And much the same could be said of how Haus argues there.

As a clash of cultures, I find it very easy to sympathise with both sides and while I admit that there is something wrong with making you feel so bad, it would also be wrong to unreservedly criticise the Headshop for being the Headshop. But then, I quite like the way it works.

I agree, however, that the moderator decisions need to be more open. Perhaps we should never delete threads, but only lock them if warranted? I don't know. At this point it is hard to say much more than "trust us". Though if you are really interested in the latest incidents, I'm sure someone can PM you the links for the relevant threads (I didn't keep them, I'm afraid).

Most of all though, you should realise that you are a member of this board and just as entitled as anyone else, neither more nor less. How you express that is largely up to you, though I reckon it would make sense to make you a moderator so you can try it out. I see you've volunteered.

Heres an idea. Maybe old moderators like me should retire to let new people in to do it, see what its like, get really bored and wonder how they ever thought there was a conspiracy?
 
 
Ganesh
19:15 / 25.09.03
You're an 'old moderator', then, Lurid?

*manfully maintains straight face*
 
 
Char Aina
19:21 / 25.09.03
it would also be wrong to unreservedly criticise the Headshop for being the Headshop

god yes.

i dont want to change it, i just didnt really know what i was doing. above i was intending to explain why i felt a little apprehensive, and in doing so perhaps illuminate a side of the discussion until now (it seems) unknown. i wasn't interested in telling the headshop how to run their business.

it's not that i want to change it, it's just that you should be aware that certain attitudes create other attitudes.

being new, and not having the time to read the entire site before posting, i leapt in to a place i was unfamiliar with. when attacked, and i mean ATTACKED, i assumed that it would be okay to respond in kind.

the problem, of course, is that i was attacked in a 'polite' way, and i didnt at first see the distinction.
i do now.

i think it an unfair one, but i do see the line.

what i am getting at is that for this place to be open, more people need to actually allow openess(sp?) to thrive.
i will not try to crack a joke at haus' expense ever again, for example, because i have learned that he will not only win, but do so in a way i am uncomfortable with. i guess the fact that he has to win might be the thing.

this is not an attempt to start a fight, lord knows i want to avoid one.

i like haus when he is using his powers for awesome, and i wish he would do it more often. it hurts to watch him give folks credibility by being unfair to them, as i feel he can do.





i am really sorry this is coming off as such a personal thing, it really isn't meant to be. haus is just so damn good at being our site rottweiler that he stands out.
 
 
Char Aina
19:23 / 25.09.03
Maybe old moderators like me should retire to let new people in to do it

thats what i meant by the castle in monty pythons holy grail... rotating mods. we all rule.
 
 
Lurid Archive
19:46 / 25.09.03
You're an 'old moderator', then, Lurid?

Old enough that I can put you over my knee, sonny. You can't hide behind the skirts of your Barbeclique anymore.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:07 / 25.09.03
Another one - suit number 1917 is either one of Modzero's sock puppets or one of his special ed chums. Either way, the suit currently known as 'Melissa and Ev' shoul dprobably be shut down if we are serious about demonstrating that Modzero should not be allowed to abuse the codes of conduct of Barbelith according to his whim. It would be a shame to lose his lovely fiancée, who has had a white undercoat to add vibrancy to her coat of paint, and who commands a legion of Chaos Elves every second Saturday, but c'est la vie.

Meanwhile, could somebody wake me up when this is all done? I should get back to the Head Shop at some point...
 
  

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