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6 months of W

 
  

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Baz Auckland
13:49 / 18.02.02
I can't help but feel that all of this was set up by the American Government. First, their former best friend who they armed attacks them. In exchange, the military gets $50billion, weapons contractors get billions, Bush gets 85% approval....

Anyways, the US may have been justified in going for retailiation, (I don't agree) but the hipocracy of the language and patriotism is sickening.

Fun Fact: Bush Sr., Colin Powell and the rest have been indicted for war crimes stemming from the Gulf War.
 
 
Hieronymus
20:36 / 18.02.02
Steering this back onto topic, I think my favorite was this little gem.

Blair and Bush nominated for Nobel Peace Prize by Norwegian politican.

And he did it with a straight face.
 
 
Jackie Susann
09:17 / 19.02.02
I think this is my fave:

quote: US aircraft over southern Afghanistan are scattering $100 bills tucked into envelopes bearing a picture of Bush, witnesses report. Some of the envelopes were carried by wind over the Pakistan border town of Chaman, sending people scrambling for the cash. "C-130 planes dropped white-colored paper envelopes with a photo of President Bush and two bills of $100 each," said Abdul Hadi, a resident of Chaman on the border with southern Afghanistan. "People pushed and fought with each other to get their hands on the envelopes." (Reuters, Feb. 14)
 
 
odd jest on horn
09:17 / 19.02.02
quote:
While I understand your need to revise the facts to support your argument, you seem to have conveniently forgotten that American officials pursued diplomatic options with Afghanistan before we ever loaded the first bombs. First the Taliban government denied that Osama Bin Laden was even in Afghanistan. Then, at the midnight hour of the request to extradict him, only THEN did they offer to hand him over to Pakistan courts. Nice try though, Crunch.


usually countries have some sort of extradition agreement. in this case there was none. also extradicting is often not done to the US because of the death penalty. also the country seeking extradition usually presents some evidence that the accused may indeed be guilty of something. this was not the case. i'm not saying that bin laden is not guilty, and i'm not saying that the evidence implicating him that was presented later was falsified. but the US refused to present any evidence at the time, and "rounding up the usual suspects" just doesn't work in international politics.

also, i find your usage of the word "diplomatic" exceedingly funny. ha. ha. the playground equivalent: "gimme your lunch money or i will beat you to pulp"

also all the links here are something to ponder. before loading the first bombs indeed.
 
 
Hieronymus
09:17 / 19.02.02
quote:Originally posted by odd jest on horn:

...also the country seeking extradition usually presents some evidence that the accused may indeed be guilty of something. this was not the case.


Clinton has gone on record several times as saying that the US govt gave the Taliban government evidence of Bin Laden's involvement in the Kenya and Tanzania US embassy bombings which was met with utter apathy and disinterest. Following that, Clinton imposed economic sanctions as early as 1999, again hoping to jar Bin Laden loose from the Taliban's protection. And the Taliban government still refused to discontinue its harboring of Bin Laden and his training camps.


So in 2000, the USS Cole is attacked and Clinton weighed multiple options, finally deciding against military strikes.

So in September the US is attacked on its shores, taking out 5000 in a single day and again we ask the Taliban government to hand him over. First they say he is in their custody. Then they say he's not. Then they say they'll hand him over to an Arab Emirate country. Then they say they'll give him to a nuetral country only AFTER the bombing campaign begins. Why is it that it took bombs to convince them that Bin Laden was a potential terrorist capable of the bombings of the US embassies, the USS Cole and the New York and Washington attacks when before simple diplomacy and requests for his extradiction were met on deaf ears?

quote:i'm not saying that bin laden is not guilty, and i'm not saying that the evidence implicating him that was presented later was falsified. but the US refused to present any evidence at the time, and "rounding up the usual suspects" just doesn't work in international politics.

How many times should we have asked? 20? 30 more times? How many more lives should the government have gambled with? Another 5000 maybe? At what point does the diplomacy reach its limits and you have to take drastic action to protect your citizens?

quote:also, i find your usage of the word "diplomatic" exceedingly funny. ha. ha. the playground equivalent: "gimme your lunch money or i will beat you to pulp"

A grossly incorrect analogy, horn. More along the lines of "if you don't stop hitting my wife, I will shoot you". Guy keeps beating her. "I'm warning you. Hit her again and I will shoot you." Guy keeps swinging. Guy gets shot.

[ 19-02-2002: Message edited by: Dekapot Mass ]
 
 
odd jest on horn
09:17 / 19.02.02
i concede the point about no evidence.

however there was no evidence that linked him to 911 at the time, which is what i meant. sorry i didn't make that clear. and i believe that the 911 attack is the grounds that bush gave for attacking afghanistan.

anyways, extradition is voluntary.

and i think my analogy is more correct than yours. unless you'd edit it to say:

"if your brother doesn't stop hitting my wife i will shoot you and your dog and your neighbours too, and possibly, if i manage to find your brother, i will shoot him too"

also did the US manage to apprehend bin laden? was there any chance of them doing that with the modus operandi they used? i think not. i mean they bombed the caves to smithereens, but they're still not sure whether he's dead or not.

i'm all for bin ladens death (or at least imprisonment), but the deathcount of afghanistan civilians exceeded the deathcount of 911, and still counting.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:12 / 19.02.02
quote:More along the lines of "if you don't stop hitting my wife, I will shoot you". Guy keeps beating her. "I'm warning you. Hit her again and I will shoot you." Guy keeps swinging. Guy gets shot.

That's a fascinating analogy, actually. Because it displays exactly the kind of disparity of response which is noticeable in Afghanistan (and by the way I did think that the 'the Afghanistan' slip was interesting).

You could punch the guy. You could choke him out. You could take your wife, leave, and call the cops. But no. You're going to shoot him.

Why? I would suggest because you're not responding to the attack, you're responding to the moral outrage the attack engenders in you.

How dare this guy hit your wife? How dare he fuck with you in this way? You've got a gun. You're the biggest guy on the block...

You don't want to know, for one second, why this guy's hitting your wife. Did she hit his wife? Did she steal from his house? All that matters is that she's your wife and she got hit. History starts there.

So you shoot this guy, and he maybe dies. He's got brothers and sons and a wife of his own, and now they're furious with you. That's okay because you're stronger than them, too. Although you may take some flesh wounds along the way. But you know what? Maybe it would have been smarter to hit the guy and call the police.

Trouble is, you're a bit worried that if the police come by, you might have some explaining to do about some of the stuff goes on in your house. You don't really want people to get in the habit of thinking too much about the rule of law. And you really don't want the Boys In Blue to go on a recruiting spree, which is one of the reasons you never quite get around to paying your taxes...

The 11th September was the most horrible single day the developed world has seen since the Second World War. That does not make what happened after it much better. Afghan refugees streaming over the borders, never having seen a skyscraper, half of them not knowing why their country was being raised to the ground...again...; the biggest and most powerful country in the world shattering the smallest; the US news agencies refusing to show Afghan casualties because it was not 'appropriate'; Israel, with US support, trampling the peace treaties of recent years; the UN sidelined; the Arab monarchies strengthened by their support for and from the US, hated by their people, opposed (rightly) by increasingly popular fundamentalist muslims within, who identify the monarchic oppressors with their sponsors in Washington; India and Pakistan in a pissing contest, again; the US demonstrating once again that it requires the rest of the world to play by the rules it will not obey itself.

How is all this a good thing? Except that it satisfied the moral outrage you felt when you saw your wife get hit? Is this what all the people who died trying to fight the fires and save the victims of the twin towers deserve? More conflict? Or an answer, a solution which is fair as well as just and stern, which would demonstrate that the most powerful nation on Earth is also among the wisest?

[ 19-02-2002: Message edited by: Nick ]
 
 
Jackie Susann
10:30 / 19.02.02
I also think it's a fascinating metaphor, although more for its gender politics than anything else. Helpless, voiceless woman as justification for male agency/violence...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:40 / 19.02.02
I didn't even want to get into that - at least, not here. Separate thread, I beg you.
 
  

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