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Underground > Temple >

Mysticism and Magick: When the two overlap.

22:33 / 14.09.03

The two are separate and distinct schools of thought. But, eventually, if one takes them far enough, one has found himself in the other. Are these two systems really two systems, are they two sides to the same coin, or are they merely a conceptual Venn diagram, (did I spell that right?). What are your thoughts?

08:49 / 15.09.03

I think that this distinction is only really made within the 'western esoteric tradition' and probably has more to do with a perceived conflict between 'spiritual' and 'material' methods and goals. I don't personally think it's all that profitable to try and impose a dualistic magic/mysticism dichotomy onto an incredibly complex living process. I would say that the distinction you're talking about is really just a way of thinking about the process, not something intrinsic to the process itself.

If I were forced to look at my own practices and experiences in these terms, I'd say that any magic worth its salt has to cross the line into something that could be considered mysticism in order to be fully effective.

But 'mysticism' in particular is such vague term that it's often unclear what people mean by it. What is a 'mystic'? Is it someone who engages with the processes that are collectively labelled 'the occult', but without doing any practical sorcery. If this is the case, then what are their reasons for this? what is it that makes them sorcery haters? Is it personal preference? Ideology? Laziness? I'd imagine it's probably different for each individual 'mystic'.

Same goes for 'magicians'. What are they? Are they people who only deal in the practical work and eschew any meditative or exploratory stuff, approaching it as a purely mechanical methodology? Do people like that actually exist in real life?

If I'm missing the point with this, please contradict my misunderstanding, but it seems to me that a distinction between magic and mysticism only really exists if we choose to consider our practice in these terms.

10:48 / 15.09.03

There are so many fab threads in the Magick today (is there a crackle in the air

), and I might not be around for much longer, depending on how the chips fall; thus, I gotta' be quick, sorry.

It is hard for me to say, and at some level, even differentiate between the two. I think that I was more of a mystic as a child, and then that got ground out as I became a teen. It was later that I returned to the Eternal fold as a budding magician. With the late teen attitude that I was something, and with all the ego-driven bullshit that accompanies most magician’s beginnings (when you are over that stuff—sigiling for crisps and whatnot--then you know you are making progress!), I wasn’t really any form of mystic. In the past year or so, I have noticed a uniting trend in the two: like my course on a path of magic(k) has returned me to a more wise and experienced child—the mystic I was naturally (that I think most kids are naturally) before it was stamped out of me by status quo.

I feel from my current perspective that I am still some kinda’ so-called “magician”; however, I know that what I truly am (which includes much about me I don’t currently know) is so much greater and more fantastic than that.

Someday I hope to meet myself, my True self: that multidimensional superstring of silliness!

16:32 / 15.09.03

I cross that line, dance around on it, stretch it out and doodle pictures of naked ladies and Bon Jovi lyrics with it.

I study, explore, plan, and execute workings to specific purpose. I use the tools available to be to create my reality. Then I live in it, and through it experience the divine. I am as affected by the world as the world is affected by me.

When the two are overlapping, you're getting the most out of the art.

Nietzsch E. Coyote

17:59 / 15.09.03

I am a mystic and a mage.

I just spent about 12hours on tarot work. This particular tarot work blended psychology, mysticism and magick. It was the most effective tarot I have ever done. I dealt with numerous psychological issues. I invented a new spread, the construction of the spread and the analysis of the spread was the main brunt of the work. I refined and in some ways completly redefined my personal system and the frame work I use to represent it. I discovered how completly heterodox my conception of reality is when compared to most magickal paradigms.

The end result left me with a new spread, lessened neuroses, a revised mystic world view, plenty of fodder for further analysis and self work, a design for a tattoo.

19:41 / 15.09.03

'Is mysticism like reading the bible but not getting anything back'
said the Actress to the Bishop

End the duality! By engaging such areas of exploration with the mind, surely one is also engaging in acts of magick?

I can't imagine reading, discovering and thinking along mystical lines and not being involved in some act of Will. The classic marathon readings of the Invisibles is a fine example of this.

proper mystic

19:50 / 15.09.03

I would have to agree with gypsy lantern that the distiction exists mostly in the western tradition, though I don't believe it was my intention to impose a split between the two, I thought I was just pointing it out. At least that was what I thought I was doing. I too was a mystic as a child, though I'm actually glad the status quo stamped it out of me, for it left the seeds of the later rebellion. But what I mean when I say mysticism, are those practices used for illumination and not material gain. Magick then would be the system by which material effects are achieved. The two overlap, and for the most part, I think each is impossible without the other. I just wondered what every one else here thought about it, whether you like it or not, the conceptual split exists, but only for awhile. I wasn't a magician long before I became a mystic again, like modog.

20:13 / 15.09.03

Hermes, so by this would you describe magick as applied mysticism?

20:43 / 15.09.03

I find it difficult to seperate the application of mystical knowledge from gaining mystical insight. Sure the western tradition has relied heavily upon ritual and props to externalise the act, but one can use visualisation to such effect, and visualisation is applied when reading.

Are we defining magick by a conscious act of externalsed/ritualised working? and thus mysticism is merely the investigation into esoteria without such exertion of knowledge.

Personally I can't see where the two seperate and as a child was creating conscious and subconscious acts of will, without the knowledge and study.

PS can we assume that at times of peril the mystic will be called upon to do magick as in The Devil Rides Out

22:20 / 15.09.03

HA! I suppose so cusm, what good would a mystical theory be if you couldn't draw some sort of system of behaviour that would be more effecacious then the one we've been blessed with by the establishment.

I would imagine that a mystic would do whatever he felt was neccesary for the moment, I remember the tale of a jewish rabbi that subjected himself to an extremely gruesome ritual to achieve a rather spectacular effect.

I would have to say that children are capable of far more mystically and magically then many knowlegable adults.

Devil's Avocado

11:01 / 16.09.03

Magick vs Mysticism.. I'm still processing this one.
They are opposite paths, leading to the same destination, criss crossing so many times as to often seem indistinguishable. They are as separate as the snakes on the CADUCEUS. Magick the active male, mysticism the passive feminine principle, both containing the seed of the other. Magick seeks to effect change in the phenominal world, while mysticism seeks acceptance of all phenomina as one.

In terms of Western vs Eastern traditions, I relate it to art; Western Art values innovation; the exhaltation and expression of the ego, while Eastern Art values skillful reproduction; the sublimation of the ego in expression. But it's all still Art.

Tibetan Buddhism /Tantra provide an interesting example of the union of these modes in practice. While the goal is mystic, the technique is clearly magickal.

One difference I see (from my conditional viewpoint) is this; The goal of 'High Magick' is union with God (Kether) and possible deification (re: Imhotep), while as far as I can tell Mysticism leads to union with the 'Buddha Fields' (Ain Soph Aur).

This would indicate a 'lesser' state of achievement/illumination through following the magickal path - and this does seem to be indicated in Eastern literature (re: Journey to the West - Monkey: Master of Magick subdued by Buddha and sent on a pilgrimage.)

Please correct me if you see gaping holes in this..just a theory so far

The Caduceus is my glyph for this debate. The Middle Pillar IS the Sushumna channel, the label you use just depends on which snake you are rising with.