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A Public Message for Mr. Haus

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
—| x |—
02:03 / 13.09.03
OK. So Mr. Haus, you have written (here):

You should probably be a bit more careful with the multiple suit, there... they are less than approved of these days. Moderators are meant to stick to the rules, you know,

and while the reference of ‘you’ is vague, it seems relatively safe to draw from the context that you are referring here to me, as Dr. ~ (c^2) > 0, and also suffering from the delusion that you are referring to me as Timewave >0<.

Now, as everyone who is in any way remotely interested in keeping tabs on me knows, I do have two fiction suits: this one and the other one, which is currently named “Whatcha’, whatcha’, whatcha’ want” (or maybe it is only two ‘wathcha’’s—it has been awhile since I used it). Moreover, as anyone can clearly see, I use my other suit v. sparingly, and, as I made a deal with Tom when he made me an everyday mod type mod, I do not under any circumstances use that suit in the Headshop. Such use, it seems to me, would be the only “ethically” questionable use of my suits as I would then have the ability to moderate my own posts. So I don’t even bother with that because I’d like to avoid fuss and strife.

Now, there are many aspects of your bark that I’d like to examine:

1) The role of moderators has never been entirely clear. The consensus opinion seems to be that we are to remain as “behind the scenes” as possible. This leads me to wonder, then, about the implicit contradiction that is thus contained in your statement. Let me spell it out: if a moderator is to be seen as merely another member who tidies the place up a little while no one is looking, then moderators are not really meant to “stick to” anything other than their ongoing participation in this community.

2) It seems to me that there aren’t really any “rules” to Barbelith, but that it is a growing developing entity which is self-correcting over time. This means that we need no so-called “rules’ and that we merely have some vague set of unwritten acceptable behaviours. This does cause us some difficulties now and then as it is hard to “punish” certain behaviours since there are no clear violations of a written code. Regardless, it appears that your referencing some set of “rules” will not work here because we have only “suggested behaviours.”

And now the more personal aspects:

3) Since attempts at identity theft are not unprecedented occurrences here in Litherland, I wonder what made you jump head first off the ledge and immediately (& mistakenly) assume that Timewave >0<, simply because s/he borrowed a bit of symbols which were at one time used in my name, is me? I mean, it seems that here (and again) you are trying to take any and every opportunity to shoot yer guns at me—but yer firing blanks here, ya’ see. And if you’ve seen el Topo, then you might recognize the Zen trick I employ to let the slugs pass right through the emptiness the makes up most of my structure.

4) Following up on 3, I am tired of your attitude towards me, and you seem to desire to do v. little in anyway to correct your numpty-headedness wrt my presence here in Litherland. You appear to have some kind of set in stone image of who I am and what I am about, and not is it merely a mistaken set of beliefs and opinions (but perhaps not entirely mistaken), but it sometimes boarders on harassment-like behaviour on your part towards me. Please quit it as I can’t imagine it being fun for you to hold such poison, and I know I certainly don’t enjoy it.

5) Flowing on from 4, I know you have a low opinion of me, but really Haus, how stupid do you think I am? Do you not think that you would be in a better position to play the role of my adversary or nemesis if you made the attempt to better understand me and cease your underestimation of my character strengths and weaknesses? Unless, of course, you are not really interested in playing such a role, but if this is the case, then please re-read 4 carefully.

With notes on 3-5. For those unfamiliar with the relation that Haus and I have had over the past couple of years, these comments are how I feel about the situation as it currently stands. These are likely things more appropriately expressed in a PM sent directly to the individual in question; however, since Haus and I have had more than one lengthy and tiring exchange via PM, and since Haus has requested (after the last exchange) that I not PM him anymore, this seems to me to be the only option I have for relating my feelings on this matter. I apologize if it seems to take on some degree of appearing inflammatory (relative to a given reader’s interpretation)—that is not my specific intent.

Sincerely,

the man who would be mod (&, of course, the G.O.D.O.G.).
 
 
bio k9
04:03 / 13.09.03
Despite knowing how tiring it is to read this crap over and over again, I can't imagine how tiring it must be to actually be involved in it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:09 / 13.09.03
This should probably be in the Conversation...logically, btw, I would be addressing Timewave Zero and also be suffering from the delusion that I was addressing you, Modzero.

I was not aware that you were using your 'other' suit anywhere. If you are, I suggest you stop doing so; as I seem to have mentioned in my absence above, moderators are expected to uphold certain standards, and not using spare suits is one of them, especially if there is nothing to suggest to the casual observer that the two suits are being used by the same person. Not using them in the area you moderate is terribly good, but it's not doing enough rather than making an extra special concession. As I understand it, any use of a secondary suit is, to employ your scarequotes, "ethically" questionable.

To your points:

1) The main element of a moderator's work is janitorial. We keep Barbelith tidy by applying certain principles. You know, adding topic abstracts (on the principle that topic abstracts are things that threads should have), deleting troll threads (on the principle that troll threads should not be on Barbelith), and so on. One of those principles, to the best of my knowledge (I have sought clarification) is currently that if a fictionsuit cannot be tied to a unique user, or a user cannot be identified as the user of only one fictionsuit, then fictionsuit and user are not using Barbelith in the way that they should be.

I remain amused and informed by the fact that, when Tom started a thread for experienced mods to give advice to new moderators, you decided on the strength of perhaps two days of experience of moderating to tell everyone how to do it. This theme appears to be continuing.

Moderation is to an extent a matter of individual conscience, of course, but it is traditional to have some interest in what others think it entails. You appear to lack this interest, but rather represent your ideas of moderation as fact. It ain't necessarily so. Saying it in a funny voice, to quote Stewart Lee, does not make something true.

So, moderators are asked to 'stick to' the established principles for good behaviour that other users of Barbelith are asked to 'stick to', but should perhaps try to be a little more assiduous.

2) See above. It has been suggested by those who own and run the board that, currently, people should not be using more than one suit on Barbelith, and that likewise ownership of a suit should not be shared between more than one person. I am, as I mentioned, seeking clarification on whether that remains the case, and whether there are special exceptions. Whether that is a rule, a suggestion or an emergent behaviour makes fairly little difference.

3) Well, let's look at simply because s/he borrowed a bit of symbols which were at one time used in my name, is me.

I did not do this. You inferred it. Were I to be assembling a case for you being a user of the Timewave Zero suit, I would be basing it probably on similarities of expression. As it happens, I do not believe you to be using the Timewave Zero suit as a spare. TZ is, as far as I can determine at present, a shared suit set up originally to provide an aura of polymathy, but somewhat hampered by low uptake. Oddly enough, TZ hirself or itself's connection with you was also uppermost in hir mind when ze PMed me to assure me that ze absolutely, definitely wasn't Modzero. If TZ is a single discrete entity, then ze is guilty of nothing more than frivolously registering another suit despite already having one in order to be member no. 2012. This is poor manners, and really geeky, but nothing much more than that; if TZ would like to clear up that ambiguity by telling us who they used to be, we can sort it all out. TZ has declined to do this.

As for why you - well, scuttlebutt, to be honest. In subsequent PMs, TZ has shown characteristics rather like yours - picking up on and repeating typographical errors in an attempt to irritate hir interlocutor (a tic of yours), the uncritical use of the adjective for the adverb, little things. Also, of course, that TZ was the first person to mention you. The numbers and punctuation were not a big hint - that could just as easily be coincidence or Rex City-Zen coming back.

Then again, I was utterly blotto last night - perhaps I am entirely incorrect and you are not one of the people currently using the TZ suit, in which case I whole-heartedly retract my suggestion and apologise fulsomely. However, merely saying that it is not so does not make it not so, no matter how rude one is in one's delivery. If I was more certain, I would be working on what action to take next. As it is, I am trying instead to establish whether what I have been told about the TZ suit is correct. The post in the Rage thread was one step of that, as a means of drawing out, the use of ‘frogive’ for ‘forgive’ in response to TZ's PM another. I remain unclear on whether the suit is being used in a manner out of true with the ‘suggested behaviours’ that moderators are supposed to be helping to uphold.

4) Well, I think that in general, as long as you keep the noise down, only try to bully people into acquiescence in your maths threads and only insult thems as know what they're getting if they disagree with you, you're neither malign nor benign. I have not encountered many moderation proposals from you, possibly as a result of going to bed earlier, since your flurry of typographical corrections to the posts of people you were arguing with, so cannot comment on your performance as moderator. I disagree very strongly with your views on certain trolls, wish you were a little more self-aware in particular with regard to your arguably trollsome past, and believe you not always to have the best interests of Barbelith at heart. I wouldn't say I dislike you, although I don't think we're equipped to be friends, but I do at times distrust you. Your sense of entitlement to behave as you will and only to obey the agreements everybody else seems to get along with in one forum, and then as a special favour to Tom, is unsurprising but still depressing.

Oh, and sometimes, just sometimes, I question your commitment to Sparklemotion.

5) I don't really have a metric. Medium stupid? I imagine that you are nowhere near as dumb as I think you are but a lot dumber than you think you are, as any other Barbeloid in this situation would be. No interest in being a nemesis, though - only in people behaving in a manner that is not detrimental to the function of the board.
 
 
—| x |—
14:37 / 13.09.03
We were separated at birth, me and you—twins I tells ya’, twins!

I was not aware that you were using your 'other' suit anywhere.

I didn’t realize I was required to report my movements and activities to you, herr Haus. What has your awareness or lack thereof of my use or nonuse of my “other” to do with this?

1) The main element of a moderator's work is janitorial.

Yes, I believe I have related as much in my initial post—we agree! Further, I feel the list of tasks you have provided illustrates an adequate account of moderator duties—again, we agree.

One of those principles, to the best of my knowledge (I have sought clarification) is currently that if a fictionsuit cannot be tied to a unique user, or a user cannot be identified as the user of only one fictionsuit, then fictionsuit and user are not using Barbelith in the way that they should be.

This is a policy (or “principle”) that I am not “on board” with. This doesn’t mean that I vehemently oppose its enforcement here in Litherland (which is, apparently like any supposed “policies,” either a collective choice, the choice of a small elite, or the choice of a single man—depending on what and whom we ask—OSISTM), but only that I will have little (preferably nothing) to do with enforcing such a policy. I also believe I can neglect participating in the enforcement of this policy, and yet, still perform any other moderator duties without any conflict. Indeed, it seems hard to be both “behind the scenes” as a moderator, and yet be expected to actively seek to expose members for some perceived misbehaviour. There seems to me to be a stark difference between the “janitorial” duties we agree upon, and the witchhunt behaviour your view seems to require. Moreover, I feel that it is my prerogative to not necessarily agree with everything and anything within any given structure/system. In fact, it seems to me that for any system to maintain health it must be willing to undergo stress, duress, and revolution from within. Or maybe GM’s initial spark really has been stamped out here in Litherland? Also, since it seems a tremendous task to identify and verify that each of our community’s users has only one fiction suit, what you’ve related is not so much the issue here, but more for your recent Policy thread, hmm?

I remain amused and informed by the fact that, when Tom started a thread for experienced mods to give advice to new moderators, you decided on the strength of perhaps two days of experience of moderating to tell everyone how to do it. This theme appears to be continuing.

I think you can remain (as in “set in stone”?) anyway you desire, Mr. Haus—that is certainly your business. I suppose what I am suggesting is that it might be healthy for both yourself and others if you attempt to adopt a flexible and adaptable attitude towards, in specific myself, but more importantly towards how you present yourself on the board in general (wrt specific undesirable traits of yours). Of course, you’ve said as much to me, which again suggests to me that we are too much alike to really get anywhere without someone to mediate.

Anyone up to that likely difficult and trying task? Until we have a willing and suitable volunteer, allow me to continue…

It also tells me that, like you’ve also said to me, it would be nice if you were a little more self-aware of your irksome tics and quirks. But perhaps you are not even able to admit that you might have some idiosyncratic set of these?

[M]oderators are asked to 'stick to' the established principles for good behaviour that other users of Barbelith are asked to 'stick to', but should perhaps try to be a little more assiduous.

Oh I agree—moderators do well to set decent examples of acceptable behaviour. We might not always be able to live up to such responsibility, but hey, no one is perfect, right? It seems to me that, while it is currently frowned upon to have more than one suit registered, it hasn’t always been this way—and there is no reason to assume it shall remain this way either. On this note, to restate what I’ve said elsewhere when the issue of my second suit came up, I have had these two—and only two—suits long before the time of the recommended “one suit only, please” behaviour; moreover, I have at any time required been forth coming about my second suit’s current name and function. It appears to me that I can easily argue that I am setting a “good example” on the proper use of secondary suits…

Some will side with you, some with me, and some will tell us (or not tell us, but desire it anyway) both to shut the fuck up. Others will watch the drama with amusement—popcorn in hand, munch-munch, and yet others won’t give a toss. And this is a mere smear of generalization—see how diverse an idealized Litherland is? Now how much more diverse is the reality of this community? Are we a dictatorship or a melting pot? No, we seem more a multi-cultural expression, sometimes of what is the cutting-edge of awareness & experiencing: how do we attempt to limit that?—and why would we want to?

3)…I did not do this. You inferred it.

It would be helpful if you were a little more clear in saying what you mean. I am again placed in a position where I have to make another assumption about your intended meaning. Here I will assume that you are saying something to the effect of “I Mr. Haus did not delude myself into thinking that Dr. ~ (c^2) > 0 was the same user as s/he (or them?) of Timewave >0<. Further, you, Mr. mod have made this mistaken assumption.”

Well, first, I asked you in the thread if you were indeed thinking of someone in particular, yet, there was no response from you. Moreover, as I’ve already stated, it seemed quite apparent that you were, by your vague ‘you’, picking out me. Since Timewave >0< is not a moderator, I wonder who you meant to mean by that ‘you’ then: E. Randy Dupree? Or maybe you were talking to Ganesh? Seems unlikely—highly unlikely—but stranger things are certainly happening even as we dialogue.

Oddly enough, TZ hirself or itself's connection with you was also uppermost in hir mind when ze PMed me to assure me that ze absolutely, definitely wasn't Modzero.

That’s because I sent TZ a message saying, “Look what you’ve done to poor Haus—you’ve confused his head!” The user(s?) of the TZ suit PMed me back with, what I assume, was a copy of the PM s/he (they?) had sent you. I did not request any action regarding this issue form this suit, I merely PMed hir (them?) to say—hey sucka’ don’t be steppin’ on my toes. It was s/he (they?) who PMed you of hir (their?) own will.

The post in the Rage thread was one step of that, as a means of drawing out, the use of ‘frogive’ for ‘forgive’ in response to TZ's PM another.

Where’s Watson?

4)…I have not encountered many moderation proposals from you, possibly as a result of going to bed earlier, since your flurry of typographical corrections to the posts of people you were arguing with, so cannot comment on your performance as moderator...”

And yet you have somehow managed to underhandedly comment on my performance as a moderator in this very sentence! Haus, you are some piece of work, and a cheap-trick rhetorician ta’ boot! What is absolutely stunning about your ridiculous spin on this was that when Tom had suggested in the thread you mention regarding old mods helping new mods that correcting typos was cool, I was supportive of this duty—but wait, here’s the kicker. I voted to moderate exactly one person’s posts for typos—Lurid Archive’s (and here is the where you actually relate the truth of the matter because it is true that Lurid and I were having an argument at the time), and he was the one who OKed the action and followed it up with a PM to me suggesting that I not correct typos in the future. So get this, I stopped doing it, but in the meantime I did try to make a case for why it was an appropriate moderator duty, but the majority of mods and admin felt otherwise—so you know what I did? Well shit for shinola, I never moved to moderate a post for spelling errors again. Go figure.

I…wish you were a little more self-aware in particular with regard to your arguably trollsome past

It is funny here, to me anyway, that I have mostly been quite up front about, what you have called, my “troll-some past.” What is brilliant here is that there only seems to be a few people who feel that I have this alleged past (as the comic tragedy “Ierne’s Blind Date” thread will attest)—as you describe it—and the majority of people who really do feel this way happen to be pals with Ierne. I t also turns out that this small number of people happen to be the ones I end up being rude to on occasion. See a pattern here?—or do you refuse to see what so plain in front of me (and, for that matter, in the text!?!)? As I have said before, befour, befor: “I am a troll, I am not a troll, I am neither a troll nor not a troll, and I am both a troll and not a troll.” But my having to repeat this merely shows me how little you actually pay attention to the views and theories I contribute to this community, which appears to allow me to infer that your wish for my self-awareness is based on a v. edited view of who I am. But of course, you won’t see this. Hard to look in the mirror sometimes, eh? It is painful to live in fear of your own self, you know…

Your sense of entitlement to behave as you will…is unsurprising but still depressing.

Again, I have to say that it is clear you’ve no sense of where I am coming from, which simply means you pay a strict selective attention to the data you are exposed to. Seeing as I am a regular contributor to the Magick forum, and seeing as anyone who has ever read that forum for any short duration of time would know, “do what thou will” is something that many so-called “magicians” take seriously—in some formulation or other, and I am no exception to this. As well, some would be inclined to say that I am a bit of an Anarchist—at least in certain directions. Thus, my willingness to behave as I see fit is deeply ingrained in my being. Who are you to try to stop me from being who I am? Is your taste in what is reasonable behaviour supposed to trump my living, breathing Tao?

5) I imagine that you are…a lot dumber than you think you are…

Perhaps on some days, while on others I am probably much more brilliant than I give myself credit for. It’s not really specific to this situation, nor is it specific to fellow Litherlanders, but seems to me more a general pattern of behaviour and feeling which arises in typical human experience. Ebb and flow, friend: watch—but more importantly listen to—the tides.

“All the leaves are brown (the leaves are brown)
and the sky is grey (and the sky is grey).
Just out for a walk—on a winter’s day (on a winter’s day).”
 
 
—| x |—
14:41 / 13.09.03
Oh, and Bio K9, I mean, I don't know you real well, and we've never really interacted much here in Litherland, but anyway, I have this sneaking intuition you speak from a center and not a side, and if I am correct in listening to this little flutter in my tummy, then I would have to say you are absolutely correct, and that I sympathize with the audience who also share your feelings regarding this ongoing dispute.
 
 
Timewave Zero
15:09 / 13.09.03
This is what I was trying to avoid.

I sent Haus the PM to clear the good Doctors name. It was not solicited by hir, It was an action I chose to perform. I informed Haus suit that "He was not I and I not be he" - which should have been the end of it.

The PM was followed up by Haus informing me that he would contact Tom Coates to have an IP check done and cross reference it with the member list. I responded to Haus volunteering my IP assignment to save the trouble. As well, I declined to give the ID of my previous suit,but, I did promise to remain in this suit and not post in the other. As for my ID, anyone could figure that out.

As well, let it be noted that I am the only member utilizing the suit, despite what you have heard. The IP check will clarify that point.

Oh look! A sleeping dog...!
 
 
I The Golden Dawn-nie Darko U
19:00 / 13.09.03
Correct me if I'm wrong -

Wasn't there another post above this one?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:24 / 13.09.03
Which is precisely the problem. Registering a new suit because you want a new suit, keeping your old suit spare, refusing to divulge your previous suit identity - these are not currently, as I understand it, acceptable behaviours, because of the actions of a very small number of special case children. Sad but.

Likewise, whereas in a perfect world:

This is a policy (or “principle”) that I am not “on board” with. This doesn’t mean that I vehemently oppose its enforcement here in Litherland (which is, apparently like any supposed “policies,” either a collective choice, the choice of a small elite, or the choice of a single man—depending on what and whom we ask—OSISTM), but only that I will have little (preferably nothing) to do with enforcing such a policy.

would be perfectly reasonable, it fails to take into account (a) the importance of moderators upholding standards where the security and continued function of Barbelith is a part of that standard, and (b) that you are not declining to apply this principle, but actively breaking it by using two suits simultaneously.

The point is that right now nobody is meant to be creating new suits for a single user because they feel like it, or employing multiple suits because they want to. While free to disagree with those decisions until face becomes blue, I'm not sure that you have a special right to break the rules because you had multiple suits before it was requested that people only use one. If I seek to break a rule that did not exist the last time I performed the act that involves breaking that rule, I am still breaking that rule by performing that act.

If you feel unable to go along with behaviours that are designed to discourage the sort of actions that have nearly shut Barbelith down on more than one occasion, then I'm afraid that goes beyond individual choice and doing what thou wilt. It's at best a rather dim demand for special treatment, at worst a process, intentional or not, of pushing back the boundaries of acceptable behaviour to make trolling easier and more rewarding. This, I would suggest, is not acceptable moderator behaviour. You might be expected to be ready to sacrifice one of these - the multiple suit or the moderator status - depending on what you feel is more important. Likewise, it seems that, although Timewave Zero may or may not be in part a multiple suit of Modzero's, Timewave Zero is nonetheless indubitably a multiple suit, created apparently on a whim, which is not really cricket. Since TZ still declines to share information on which other suits ze has registered, assuming a single user, I'm struggling to see how the creation of this suit is valid.

In which circumstances, I don't see why asking Tom to make some effort to verify which other suits TZ has been using - one of our current security measures - is a witch-hunt, rather than, say, standard practice and good governance. After all, unusually confident behaviour and a strangely well-developed knowledge of Barbelith history in a new suit is one of the flags that invites a closer look at present, for reasons we hardly need to go into again in the light of our little chum having popped his tiny head up in this thread, only to get another spare suit whack-a-moled.
 
 
—| x |—
23:35 / 13.09.03
Geez Haus, didn’t you start a thread where most of what you say above belongs? Are you going to stay on topic here or do you simply like the sound of your own keyboard? I’ll try to pick out and address the relevant bits.

…the actions of a very small number of special case children. Sad but.

Not necessarily relevant, but is a fine example of your backhanded brand of subtle but sharp impolite behaviour.

…would be perfectly reasonable, it fails to take into account (a) the importance of moderators upholding standards where the security and continued function of Barbelith is a part of that standard, and (b) that you are not declining to apply this principle, but actively breaking it by using two suits simultaneously.

Again, it seems to me that, while there have been attempts to establish some set of “standards,” there is not really any such entity that exists with respect to participation in the Litherland community. Therefore, your (a) is vague and dangles without a clear sense, and your (b) requires that there really is some “principle” and not merely a strongly recommended way of behaving. Clearly, the standard use of English demarcates an identifiable difference between what is and what isn’t, and Mr. Haus, it isn’t how you are telling it. It could be in a different state/community, but it ain’t so here, my friend. It has been made v. clear on numerous occasions that Litherland isn’t a “standard” sort of community.

Now before you go off on a rhetorical tangent formulated with your sharp wit and care to the details that you can manipulate and distort, this doesn’t mean that we are clearly allowed to behave in any old way, and that there is no reason to prevent any member from doing whatever the hell s/he wants (it is always funny when a person will immediately go to the extreme to show absurdity in a system: it’s not an argument because any system collapses into absurdity at the extremes—if this notion interests any readers, then please see the thread on contradictions in the Headshop). In not having, in a strict and formal way, “standards,” “codes,” or “principles,” we are still bound by a Universal contract that involves how we relate to ourselves. Since “self-other” is merely a system that collapses into itself at the extremes, this entails that there is a basic “creed” to either: 1) do unto others as you’d have them do to you, or 2) do not do unto others as you would have them not do to you (since “self-other” implosion becomes, what might be called, “the divine,” or Jung’s “Self,” or some other such v. close but infinitely removed from the Truth expression or formulation of “the reality”). In other words, what I am saying is that there is a commerce in respect for one’s self and one’s other that when in fine form functions to remove any need for morality formulated in sets of codes and creeds. Like old uncle Nietzsche has tried to tell us, there is a headspace beyond good and evil.

It's at best a rather dim demand for special treatment, at worst a process, intentional or not, of pushing back the boundaries of acceptable behaviour to make trolling easier and more rewarding.

Your disjunction is not only poorly formulated wrt reality, it is specifically designed to be a rhetorical trick to promote your view regardless of the reader’s choice of either side of the “or.” Do you do these sorts of things without consciousness or are you really unable to communicate without trying to gain “the hand”? {see, I employed the same cheap-trick there!} This is to say that your disjuncts are both false wrt what I am doing in particular, and likely false with respect to what others with multiple suits are doing. So you have created a type of lie here, Haus. Perhaps it is more yourself you ought not to trust rather than me?

I feel that a) my behaviour here (whether in this suit or the o.g. GDG—now “watcha’ (x 2 v 3) want”) in no way threatens the long term stability of the board, b) that my behaviour is completely compatible with most sane formulations of what could be considered “reasonable” or “acceptable” behaviour, and c) that people who abuse any aspects of a system to “troll” will do so regardless of any fixed or fluid boundaries; this is to say that my pushing of boundaries (if indeed this is what I am doing) does not make anything easier for anyone—trolls will be trolls regardless of my conforming or deviation from recommended behaviour.

This makes me think of certain idiotic formulations of gun laws in certain countries: you can license, limit ownership, require to register, demand as many forms as we would want in triplicate, and the criminals who desire guns will still acquire guns—it’s the reasonable who will most often get screwed under such demands. The only sure way to stop criminals from having guns is to destroy all the guns and let the art of constructing guns fade into history. To get back to here, the only way to stop trolling entirely is to not have a community.

The road to a better community is not founded on restricting the freedoms of its citizens, but to give those same citizens all the freedom they desire in exchange for an equal acceptance of responsibility. From this it all lies in how the specific individual will walk on that road.

You might be expected to be ready to sacrifice one of these - the multiple suit or the moderator status…

I might have to—easily foreseen and so easily true. I’ll wait for a PM from Tom to find out, OK?

After all, unusually confident behaviour and a strangely well-developed knowledge of Barbelith history in a new suit is one of the flags that invites a closer look at present…

True, but hardly validates quick and decisive action, OSISTM. Any person could have lurked for any amount of time before registering. Confidence is merely a character trait (and a positive one in reasonable displays) and a knowledge of history doesn’t entail any sort of current or potential misbehaviour. I mean, someone could know the entire rise and fall of the Third Reich, but clearly (and sanely) this does not invite an investigation to establish hir status as a Nazi. To uphold and apply your tactics is exactly the paranoiac, self-aggrandizing, narrow minded behaviour required as a prerequisite for the burning of many more or less decent people.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:28 / 14.09.03
You began this thread. I have participated in it. If you wish to complain that I am now talking about policy in the Policy, then feel free to add your thoughts to the thread devoted to multiple suits. If this is purely a thread in which you talk about yourself, then I will move to have it sent to the Conversation.

If we assume that you are telling the truth, and that you have no access to the Timewave Zero suit, then you remain nonetheless in violation of requests by Tom not to have more than one active suit.

Your argument, essentially, is that, since you are a reasonable and good person, it is all right for you to do this, as it can only have reasonable and good consequences. This in no sense answers your obligation as a moderator to be more careful about how you behave on Barbelith. How could it? You have already effectively stated that, by dint of being your action, any action you take will be reasonable and good. I refer you to your stout defence of a PM which was broadly interpreted as abusive and harrassing when you posted it in order to get support for how reasonable and good you were being the last time you pulled this, by PM. Your conviction is fascinating and admirable, and just one reason why I am deeply suspicious of your ability to understand, much less accept, a responsibility to behave according to any consensual model; you will override it whenever the mood takes you on the grounds that your desired action will be necessarily better than any other's proposal.

Trolls will be trolls regardless of my conforming or deviation from recommended behaviour.(sic, as I believe you would say about now)

Not so. By limiting people to one suit, and thus allowing easy identification of user and suit, we have made it easier to identify trolls (as opposed to, say, "confrontational" parallel personalities). We have also worked towards establishing a coherent standard of behaviour and thus what stands outside it - for example, the use of multiple suits.

Incidentally, I look forward to your explanation of how the UK, for example, which has heavily licensed firearms laws, manages to keep up with the US in its firearms fatalities. You may use both sides of the paper.

Now, it occurs to me that this you are merely doing here what you used to do by PM - attempt to hector, harrass, insult and wear down until eventually I give up in disgust. The last time this happened I asked you to cease PMing me, a request you failed to manage at first (see yet another thread in which Modzero explains that his behaviour, although in the hands of another potentially unacceptable, is both reasonable and good) but have subsequently been decent about, assuming that you are not able to access the Timewave Zero suit. Is there a point to this?

To recap: you are currently using Barbelith in a way that all users have been asked not to. You believe that, since you are doing so in an allegedly harmless way, you are free to continue to do so, and any attempt to curtail your freedom to ignore requests clearly aimed only at less morally capable men would be madness (oh, by the way, you just triggered Godwin's Law. Bad luck). This may be the case.

I retain severe misgivings about your behaviour in general, which would be less of an issue if you were not a moderator. Mainly, though, I'm bored. Do you want to wrap it up and await the findings of the Norwegian jury?
 
 
Timewave Zero
00:40 / 14.09.03
May I be so bold as to suggest a thread dedicated to informing users when we alter a suit name? This might ease confusion.
 
 
w1rebaby
01:02 / 14.09.03
Oh my fricking god.

If I was Tom, I'd go absolutely mental if I saw this.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
01:05 / 14.09.03
We'll be lucky if that's *all* he does...

Really, guys, pack it the fuck in. Both of you. Either learn to live with each other, ignore each other or take it somewhere else.
 
 
—| x |—
01:28 / 14.09.03
"Often times
people, you'll find,
they're not blind,
but they just don't see
it."
~Urge Overkill.

Well, since you seem unable or unwilling to do any real work towards resoltuion here Haus, we will likely have to try this again at a later date--perhaps you'll be more ready then...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:44 / 14.09.03
Yeesh. Randy has shocked me into sense. This is rather ghastly, isn't it? Given that the only thing that stopped this from devolving into a slanging matchis that it started as one, and that it provides another opportunity for trollboy (hello, there, Andy) to stir the pot, I'd suggest deleting the whole thing and trying to forget about it.
 
 
—| x |—
02:21 / 14.09.03
And an Aside or
Why Haus appears to live in a land of distorted reality where facts are conveniently made up or distorted to suit his need.

Gun Death International Comparisons:

From here.

Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

USA: Homicide—4.08 (1999); Suicide—6.08 (1999); Unintentional—0.42 (1999)
England/Wales: Homicide—0.12 (1999/00); Suicide—0.22 (1999); Unintentional—0.01 (1999)


…the UK, for example, which has heavily licensed firearms laws, manages to keep up with the US in its firearms fatalities.

WRONG!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
02:29 / 14.09.03
Well, yes. That was rather the point. That the UK, which has heavily licensed access to firearms, has far fewer firearms deaths per capita than the US, which has far less heavily licensed access to firearms. And therefore that your gun licensing metaphor was incorrect, since restrictions on purchasing firearms in the UK seemed to be connected to a far lower level of firearms homicide. Do you see?

I had no idea that anybody would not understand the obvious irony in my inversion, since I had no idea that anybody would not be aware of the statistics.

Now, it occurs to me that your last post, while providing a handy opportunity to help you out with your reading comprehension again, was utterly outside the scope of any argument that may have spread its wings in this thread - it was mere insult. So, once again, is there ay profitable reason not to try to forget this thread ever hapened?
 
 
—| x |—
02:32 / 14.09.03
Yer a tool. Crimianls that want guns get guns. A country with heavy gun control creates a milieu where criminals do not need to desire guns to be criminals. The legislation and such is really secondary to the prescence or abscence of guns when it comes to whether or not criminals will feel the need to use guns. Thus, the "principles" of the community do not do much to prevent trolls, but the attitude of the community does. You moron.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
02:40 / 14.09.03
I repeat my question - since I am increasingly embarrassed about the whole thing, and since, unable once again to accept that he may have been mistaken in any particular, Mod is going to be heading for ever more intricate attempts to justify himself mixed in with increasingly amateur abuse, is there any vaue in this thread continuing to exist? It has given me some ideas, including the usefulness of the permanent ignore function, TZ's suggestion of a thread to keep track of suit name changes, the possibility of my stepping down as an administrator/moderator and a potential model for future conduct on multiple suits, and I imagine there is little more to follow other than insults and declining spelling.
 
 
—| x |—
02:57 / 14.09.03
Yes, obvious typos made in haste are such sure signs of—what, exactly?

Drearily predictable response, Mr. Haus. And of course your subtle, clever, and "high-brow" abuse is different from more direct abuse how exactly?

“Have you ever used that machine on yourself?”

Adieu.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
08:51 / 14.09.03
Oh yes, it's always fun to see these threads popping up so Dr. ~(c^2)>0 can continue his fights with Haus. Can't you just solve it in the more traditional manner, first around the world in 80 days followed by a boxing match on the steps of the British Museum or something? However, following the good Doctor's hilarious missing of Haus's point and trying to turn this into an argument about gun control, I fear haus is behind on points and may have to do something spectacular to even things up.

:::Timewave Zero::: solo May I be so bold as to suggest a thread dedicated to informing users when we alter a suit name? This might ease confusion.
The last time Tom was soliciting for ideas for things to change on the board I did suggest something be put in to allow us to keep track of peoples ficsuit names, like many other people I thought the sky was falling in when I saw that for the first time ever Nick had changed his ficsuit name. The question is how to work it, I suggested keeping the last three to five names but it does mean anyone from The Special Class only can change their names x+1 times to still remain anonymous.
 
 
Tom Coates
10:21 / 14.09.03
Grrr. Right then. From the top:

In fact, it seems to me that for any system to maintain health it must be willing to undergo stress, duress, and revolution from within. Or maybe GM’s initial spark really has been stamped out here in Litherland? Also, since it seems a tremendous task to identify and verify that each of our community’s users has only one fiction suit, what you’ve related is not so much the issue here, but more for your recent Policy thread, hmm?

Quoting the original spirit of Grant's work as an indicator of what we should be doing here is not acceptable reasoning I'm afraid - this site is not about having a godhead and anyone who tries to argue anything here on the basis of 'that's not what Grant would say' is in deep intellectual trouble.

Now regarding the issue of multiple fiction suits - what you're evidently not aware of is the history, which is long and bloody and difficult. Originally we encouraged multiple fiction suits on the basis that people should be able to explore those parts of their personality that they wouldn't otherwise be comfortable doing so under their established identities. The idea was that people could investigate issues that were perceived to be 'against the party line' without anxiety. It was designed to be something to be used responsibly.

Now unfortutely, the board game under prolonged attack (and indeed still comes under pretty regular attack) by an individual who exploited the freedoms we were offering. He didn't treat multiple user names or identities as something to be undertaken seriously - to explore actual conflicts and confusions, but instead used them to insult people, to skew arguments, to support himself, to foul up the board and to destroy any possible hope of reasonable discussion.

The board nearly died under the weight of massive conflict, which I was left to deal with. People left by the dozen, and didn't return and we had MONTHS of arguments about what rules or procedures we could or couldn't introduce while maintaining the essence of what this place was for... To get rid of the problem we had to close all new memberships to the board, and then slowly and carefully block each and every user name of the person concerned. And then we found that some other irresponsible members were giving over their old multiple user names for him too - while others were finding their user names had been broken into. There was widespread confusion, fighting and collapse.

It was AT THAT TIME that the rule about multiple user names was brought into action - because of the problems we had had, it was made clear that ANYONE found running more than one user name concurrently would run the risk of being booted off the board completely - because we could not be sure that they were not just making themselves completely impossible to get rid of. The anonymity of a spare user name was a growing problem, and in the end we had to do something about it. And we did.

Now there have been exceptions - mainly people that I personally know in real-life and trust - and normally only then when there's good reason for them to have another suit, BUT IN PRINCIPLE THAT RULE STILL STANDS - HAVING MULTIPLE USER NAMES, AND USING MULTIPLE USER NAMES MAY RESULT IN EXPULSION FROM THE BOARD.

Regarding the editing of typos - I may actually have to change my policy on that at some point for legal reasons - but in the meantime, I stand by my statement that these decisions emerge out of what moderators are prepared to approve or disapprove and that individuals should - for the most part - act according to their conscience and with a view to the larger community's maintenance (and to what they think will get passed by their peers). If people disagree with my stance on typos, then that's fine. That's the whole point of having multiple moderators - that the CORRECT BEHAVIOUR ON CERTAIN ISSUES WILL EMERGE FROM PEOPLE ACTING ACCORDING TO THEIR CONSCIENCES.

In general Haus is completely right in this thread when he says both that in an ideal world multiple suits would be fine and that unfortunately we're not in that world. For exactly the same reason, it would be nice if all new members didn't have to go through me - partiuclarly as I'm worked to death at the moment - but because of the actions of a few, it's not the case at the moment.

He is also completely accurate when he says: In which circumstances, I don't see why asking Tom to make some effort to verify which other suits TZ has been using - one of our current security measures - is a witch-hunt, rather than, say, standard practice and good governance. Checking whether a suit is a multiple (when brought to my attention) - and roughly what IPs are associated with it - is one of my responsibilities on the board and I perform it whenever I am able.

This statement is untrue: Again, it seems to me that, while there have been attempts to establish some set of “standards,” there is not really any such entity that exists with respect to participation in the Litherland community. in that it has been made clear in the past that certain actions and behaviours will not be tolerated, and while that might not have been communicated very well, it IS THE CASE. Abusive members will be booted out, people who spam will have their messages deleted, people with multiple suits will be told off and asked to sacrifice them.

All in all there are limits to the philosophical process that we would like to be using on the board - there are failings in the moderation system and - indeed - problems with some of the very architectures of the internet itself. In order for everything else to work we ask certain things of our posters - MUCH MUCH LESS than most other communities. We have also devolved power partially from the owner of the board (me) to a group of moderators with checks and balances in place to stop them doing anything too profoundly stupid. It's only a beginning, but it's a good beginning.

This is true: The road to a better community is not founded on restricting the freedoms of its citizens, but to give those same citizens all the freedom they desire in exchange for an equal acceptance of responsibility And the problem is that not everyone accepts that responsibility and we have to find ways of making that not a problem. The fact that there are people who are profoundly irresponsible is the reason we have no new members joining and a limitation on the number of suits people can have. It's a shame but it's true.

You might be expected to be ready to sacrifice one of these - the multiple suit or the moderator status…” I might have to—easily foreseen and so easily true. I’ll wait for a PM from Tom to find out, OK?

Consider notice given. You might have to give up one or the other unless you can persuade me in a private message why it's really so important for you to have both.

As regarding the name changing stuff - well I'm coming (slowly) to agree with this, and I'll see what I can do...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
10:21 / 14.09.03
Has anyone got a problem with me proposing that this gets moved into Conversation, as it's only coincidentally about an issue of policy and is certainly not helpful? The question of name changes should probably be taken into a new thread regardless, as even if this one doesn't move it's likely to get buried in the stupid slanging match.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
11:58 / 14.09.03
Both you and Haus (IIRC) have suggested this and I don't know why. Why not just lock the thing as we seem to have reached a sensible conclusion.
 
 
—| x |—
12:03 / 14.09.03
"Has anyone got a problem with me proposing that this gets moved into Conversation..."

Um, yeah, I do. Since I am respecting Haus' request not to PM him (which seems some sort of "policy"), and since there is policy to be discussed in the initial post--the policy of Haus' seeming ability to get away with whatever behaviour he desires towards whomever he desires (he is the original Barbelith troll, ya' know: he was there when the damn bridge was built!), this is certainly not, anyone's poor reading skills aside, a Conversation thread.

This stupid dispute or friction or whatever the fuck it is between Haus and I will carry on and on, off and on over the remainder of our time here together unless there is something done to work towards resolving it. Not ignoring--r.e.s.o.l.v.i.n.g., ya' see? And resolution isn't fluff conversation.

Tom: you say much, I will PM you with my response as, as per usual, the cliquey-wiki can't see the warts on their own noses (oh mod you're so bad, oh mod you're so rude, oh mod you're so wrong; but we, of course, we have little to no fault on most every occasion and can always back one and other up on exactly how little fault we have) I needn't bother posting to this thread any longer.

I said adieu.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
12:12 / 14.09.03
It's also not, anyone's inflated ego aside, a P&H thread - or rather, it wasn't until Tom tried to bring some sense to it. Good to see you can't even respond to a reasonable question without going into full-on dipshit mode, though. You might want to note that, up until this point, the general feeling of fatigue brought about by the resurrection of this feud seems to have been deemed to be caused by both of you. But hey, never let the facts get in the way of a feeling of persecution.

Also nice to see I'm in the clique. Been trying to get in for, ooh, four or so years with no success. Can sleep happy now.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:04 / 14.09.03
Well, I think there are Policy *accents* in this thread, although most of them would fit as well in the "Multiple suits" thread, or an upcoming thread on name changes.

Fights between Mod and me are Conversation material, essentially and in almost any situation. If there is a genuine policy angle to his need to be deferred to, I am not entirely aware of it. I think he might be arguing that I am abusing my powers somehow, although I'm not entirely sure how. I am certainly profoundly ashamed to have been dragged in again, and would like to apologise whole-heartedly to everyone involved.

However, I wish to register serious concern at a moderator who consistently appears unable to listen to any dissenting opinion about how the board should function, refuses to accept any correction, even when that correction is historical, and when disagreed with claims that everybody who does so is part of a clique and, by extension, that he has the right to ignore them. I don't see how that can be healthy.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
17:50 / 14.09.03
Nice baiting there Haus, don't take the high road or anything.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:19 / 14.09.03
High *ground*. I feel reasonably happy taking the high ground on this one, since I have not so far broken any rules, nor denied that any rules exist, nor denied that, if they do exist, they apply to me. That sort of puts me necessarily on the high ground, and also means that I am failing in my own duties as I see them if I do not express my concerns that, having been asked to stop harrassing me by PM, Modzero has now decided that his right to harrass is a Policy issue, and that in general he seems to be demanding special treatment to behave as he wishes.

Now, if it is not the case that Timewave Zero is a shared suit, and if it is also not the case that Modzero is a user of the suit, then I apologise to Modzero for the suggestion and Timewave Zero likewise. However, since it has brought to light the fact that both are violating policy on the use of multiple suits, I'm not exactly heartbroken for them. Hopefully this thread will have resolved *something*, that something being the current existence of two suits being used simultaneously by one person.
 
 
Timewave Zero
20:30 / 14.09.03
Let me state this one more time,and then no longer do I wish to be brought into NOR mentioned again. I am not multi posting in other suits. It has been my *geeky* intention to have suit 2012. I now *own* it. I will not be posting in any other suits. This suit has 26 posts attatched to it's name.If it is a policy issue and I *must* expose myself then I will do so in private, as it is indecent to expose yourself in public. At this point though,after reading Tom's responses, see no need for that.

As far as mutiple users sharing a suit aka "fictionsuit gangbang", I find your concerns amusing coming from one who was desribed as a "Hydra" - cut off one head and two or more appear to replace it while retaining its original body Hmmm. How could we interpret that House Suit?

I like it here. I realize that in Barbelith, I have found what I liken to an incredible rental apartment. You have nay-bores whom you may not like, whom you may not understand, who altogether embody everything you despise BUT what a great place to live.Sure, you may antagonize each other, but, if the building was burning to the ground...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:39 / 14.09.03

As far as mutiple users sharing a suit aka "fictionsuit gangbang", I find your concerns amusing coming from one who was desribed as a "Hydra" - cut off one head and two or more appear to replace it while retaining its original body Hmmm. How could we interpret that House Suit?


Well, as Ierne meant it when she said it, the methods one used to pursue an argument with me tended only to improve my case, as might be seen above.

My conscience is quite clear, thanks. Tom Coates knows who I am, and that I am a unity. Arguably, a quiddity. My thoughts on your particular situation are expressed in the "Multiple Suits" thread.

Just one correction, though. You don't own the suit. Barbelith has granted it to you, conditional on certain rules being followed. You are already failing to do that, and so, if our attempts to help you out with a compromise fail, it would be unfortunate, but not at all criminal, if Barbelith decided to take its suit back.
 
 
Timewave Zero
20:47 / 14.09.03
Is that a threat?

I used the aterisks to denote I did not have a better term than *own*.

Come on, Haus.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:56 / 14.09.03
Of course it isn't a threat, TZCZ. Don't be childish.

It's a statement that at present, by registering a new suit and refusing to divulge the identity of the old one, you are breaking both the spirit and the letter of Barbelith behavioural codes - you are claiming, not apparently uniquely but as one of a pair, that for some reason you have the right to ownership of more than one suit and to treat the other suit in a way that nobody else on Barbelith is allowed to do - keeping it as an undivulged spare in this case.

This is, as Tom has just explained loudly and clearly, not cricket, and by registering a new multiple suit after it was made clear to everyone except apparently you and Modzero that you should not seek to have more than one suit and if you already have more than one suit you should only be using one, you have *broken the rules* (I use asterisks to denote emphasis). I don't see why you should be rewarded for that.

Taking into account your dream of being suit number 2012, I have proposed a solution in the Multiple Suits thread where your old suit is revealed to Tom Coates only, who closes it down, or is revealed generally, in which case Barbelith in general can be reassured of your willingness to accept the same behavioural codes as every other member of the community. If you can do neither of these, the most sensible thing to do would be to shut down the "Timewave Zero" suit, since we already know you have another one spare and would therefore not be inconvenienced by that.

It's really that simple.
 
 
Timewave Zero
21:06 / 14.09.03
TZCZ: Now there is a solution.
 
 
Tom Coates
22:03 / 14.09.03
Right. This argument is spiralling around and getting more and more unpleasant and I'm going to step in at this point and ask you all to back away from the fiction suits for a moment. To all parties concerned - multiple fiction suits are bad and we are trying to stop people using them. So to all of those who have more than one fiction suiit, can I ask you all to stop using them forthwith and restrict your activity to one identity. Having said that, can I say in parallel to Haus that multiple fiction suits are not the end of the world, and - if we accept the possibility that they're not as aware of the reasoning or history behind their removal, then I'm sure we can write the thing off as a mistake.

Now I know there's more going on between you guys than this particular argument, and I have my own opinions about who's in the right and who's in the wrong. But let me get something straight - if you're all planning on using the board for any period of time then you're going to have to find a way to co-exist with one another - and more importantly you're going to have to find a way to do so without turning the board into a war-zone. In the end, fights like this damage the community and make the experience of coming here less useful and pleasurable for everyone.
 
  

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