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Underworld

 
  

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Chubby P
10:05 / 09.09.03
There a film coming out imminently called Underworld about a clan of Vampires at war with a clan of Werewolves that (from the trailer) looks like Blade, The Matrix and The Crow all rolled into one.

Supposedly the story is about a Vampire and Werewolf who fall in love despite their races being at war. It has been marketed as a retelling of Romeo and Juliet.

Now White Wolf games are suing sony for 17 counts of copyright infringement. White Wolf alleges that Underworld characters, theme and setting are based on White Wolf's award winning games Vampire: The Masquerade and Werewolf: The Apocalypse, both set in White Wolf's fictional World of Darkness. Further, Collins alleges that Underworld's script is based on her 1994 story Love of Monsters, published by White Wolf and also set in the World of Darkness. The full complaint filed can be viewed here.

Underworld also seems to have more than a passing resemblance to the 2000ad story A Love Like Blood which was basically a Vampire and Werewolf falling in love despite their races being at war (sound familiar?).

So if White Wolf were successful with their lawsuit could 2000ad be under threat as well? What abpout Blade? Also if they were successful this could have major implications for any films that involve werewolves and vampires in the future.

Anyway, the film looks good to me (I like the Blade films, The Matrix and The Crow), and I think this sums up the situation quite well.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
12:17 / 09.09.03
Underworld does indeed look pretty good, in a gunporn-and-tight-PVC kind of way. And from memory, White Wolf have been cutting back on their lines of horror/occult related games for a while now, due to lack of interest... sounds like they're trying to offset that loss against a probable upcoming hit movie with a few superficial similarities.
 
 
_pin
13:32 / 09.09.03
Is this denting the release date in some way? Becuase tube posters aren't giving (odd, considering how near it is), and they don't seem to have had it rated yet.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:58 / 09.09.03
White Wolf and those other people won't win; these themes are far too broad to sue for 'we had this idea first!'

Kate Beckinsale is hot, I've been a huge fan of hers since LAST DAYS OF DISCO; I think she was even in BARCELONA? I loved her before she hit it big, dammit!

This movie could be halfway decent. We'll have to see.
 
 
invisible_al
15:18 / 09.09.03
White Wolf have been wanting to have a go at this group of film makers for a while after they considered Blade to have been seriously ripping off their world background. Alledgedly the directors cut of Blade makes the similarities very clear indeed, with the vampires having 13 clans, one a clan of wizards, another a clan of deformed vampires etc etc.

Once can be a mistake, but twice...I can understand where White Wolf is comming from on this, they might be big in roleplaying but they make bugger all money compared to some publishing houses.

I don't think they'll be going after people like the author of the Anita Blake stories or 2000AD, as they don't make that much money either and are sort of WW's peers. Sony on the other hand are a massive corperate behmoth who make shed loads of cash, a worth target I tend to think.
 
 
gridley
15:49 / 09.09.03
Kate Beckinsale is indeed hot, Hunter, unfortunately she hasn't really done a good movie since Last Days of Disco. I have high hopes for Underworld, because of both Kate and the fact that I used to play the White Wolf games, which clearly inspired it.

I'm guessing they'll resolve this amicably. Some money here, some credit there. If it goes to court, it'll certainly be interesting to see how much respect the courts have for role-playing games. I'm guessing not much.

There was an episode of The Real Ghostbusters back in the mid-late 80s where they went to a town where vampires and werewolves had been locked in an ancient war, that culminated with all the vampires embracing all the werewolves and the werewolves infecting all the vampires with their lycanthropy, so that they were all the same, much in the style of Dr. Seuss' Starbellied Sneetches....
 
 
w1rebaby
15:52 / 09.09.03
Penny Arcade on this

There are going to have to be some pretty extraordinary examples of plot-lifting here, since the idea of two members of opposed factions falling in love isn't exactly unprecedented.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
16:25 / 09.09.03
This started as a reply in someone's LJ, but I figured I'd put it up here as well.

If you think this has anything to do with money, you're fooling yourself. If WW and Nacny didn't file suit, they'd be stupid. I'm not an IP attorney myself, but I played one on the phone long enough to know a few things...

Underworld has a lot of points of similarity to the works of Nancy Collins and White Wolf. Bunches. So much so that there's a portion of White Wolf's audience that does think Underworld is an acutal licensed WW film.

With all these points of similarity, WW HAS to defend their IP with a suit, because if they don't, it weakens their claim to their own IP.

For example: in December or so the Vampire: Bloodlines video game will come out. Sony and Lakeshore could potentially sue White Wolf for using concepts and ideas featured in their film Underworld... and if White Wolf hadn't challenged Sony's possible infringement on their IP now, with the suit aganst Underworld, then White Wolf wouldn't have a leg to stand on to defend their putting out a Vampire video game.

No, it dosn't make sense, but that's how IP laws work. If White Wolf does not oficially challenge Sony's possible IP infringement in court, WW could then be open to losing their own IP at the hands of a suit from Sony in the future. WW would be stupid to even leave a chance at that hapening right now since they're currently re-branding and repositioning themselves in the marketplace.

The suit itself is for chump change. These things get settled out of court, they always do. It's what the entire legal system involving IP rights is based around. Even in the very unlikely event that it goes to jury and WW gets shot down, then Lakeshore and Sony still have no future claim on WW's IP.

It's a win/win situation for WWGS.

That said...mmmm.... movie looks like fun. Vampire women in corsets and rubber killing things*. Mmmmm.

(* Not always a recipie for success, I mean, who's seen Razor Blade Smile? Gah.)
 
 
FinderWolf
17:40 / 09.09.03
That Penny Arcade cartoon is great - everyone click on the link! Funny stuff. Well-drawn, too.

I didn't know about the 13 clans and wizard clans, deformed clans in BLADE - that is pretty specific.

A review up at www.aint-it-cool-news.com isn't very favorable about this. Most of the buzz on it seems to be "eeh, it's average."
 
 
All Acting Regiment
19:52 / 09.09.03
1) Is the film playing on concepts that have always been, i.e. folklore, or on concepts based within folklore invented by white wolf?

Yes to both, but by the urban setting and clan theme id say more the latter.

2) Are sony aware of the target market for such films?

Of course they are, that's the only reason this film exists.
 
 
MissLenore
23:11 / 09.09.03
From the,albeit few, reviews I've read about Underworld, the "Romeo and Juliet" storyline is actually almost non-existant, but rather it's mostly an action flick, with the romance being secondary. I have to admit that I had previously read Collins' story and that WAS what came to mind when I heard about Underworld, but if the romance plotline plays as small a role as I have heard, then she really doesn't have much of a case going.
 
 
Mike-O
23:35 / 09.09.03
Gee, guess "White Wolf" (nice name) musta lifted their crap from The Romance Of Tristan and Isuelt, eh? Or maybe Othello? Romeo and Juliet? Hell, LORD OF THE RINGS!

Go ahead, whine a little more.... b/c the idea of 2 very different ppl falling in love, with chaos insuing.... yeah, that's like saying someone ripped off my idea to have a Knight slay a dragon in my story. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Pooh.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:16 / 10.09.03
Chris: 2) Are sony aware of the target market for such films?

Of course they are, that's the only reason this film exists.


I'd just like to take issue with this, unless I misunderstand you. If you mean that this movie is intended solely or primarily to appeal to Goths, roleplayers, Buffy geeks etc - then no, this is far from being the only reason why a film such as Underworld gets made. This is no more true than the idea that big-budget screen adaptations of comic books are made to appeal solely or primarily to comic book readers. Subcultures provide food for Hollywood all the time, but the "target market" the makers of this film no doubt intend to reach is much wider - it's the eye-candy, action-movie, fantasy thriller market too. Yes, it will probably be a total geek wet dream, but I imagine the ideal these days is to pull a Matrix, and get the best of both worlds...

(As an example, of course I'm going to see it. Wild lycanthropes couldn't keep me away. But I've never rolled a nine-sided dice or worn a corset in my life, and I suspect I never will.)
 
 
Quantum
11:22 / 10.09.03
As soon as I saw the trailer I thought "White Wolf will sue" and rightly so. Blade was close, but is from a comic (so 'peer group' as mentioned above) but Underworld is so thinly veiled it's funny. Only the names have been changed..
Now don't get me wrong, of course vamps and wolves have been around since, um, wolves and people, but the 'Gothic Punk Milieu' WW explicitly espouse is exactly what Underworld shows. I don't think they'll get much from Sony, but as pointed out above they'd be stoopid not to assert their rights now. Much as I hate Mark Rein'DOT'Hagen, go them, down with Sony.
That Penny Arcade strip is funny as hell, Dark Steve, teehee..
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:25 / 10.09.03
[geek city] Ain't no such thing as a d9, dude... [/geek city]
 
 
diz
13:07 / 10.09.03
Much as I hate Mark Rein'DOT'Hagen

MRH hasn't been involved directly with WW for years, dude...
 
 
Tamayyurt
10:55 / 19.09.03
This is out today, has anyone seen it? The reviews have been horrible (at least the ones I've seen.) but I trust you lot.
 
 
The Strobe
11:09 / 19.09.03
[geek city] Ain't no such thing as a d9, dude... [/geek city]

I was going to say such a thing. I think Fly knows this too, and that that it was meant to add a layer of funny to his useful and explanatory post.
 
 
Quantum
14:00 / 19.09.03
[geekworld]D9=D10 but reroll zeros- call yourselves geeks? pah![/geekworld]
Going to see this as soon as, reviews indicate it's terrible but K Beckinsale is hot as a vamp and there are good fights- good enough for me.
 
 
cusm
15:07 / 19.09.03
who's seen Razor Blade Smile?

*shudders*
 
 
Mazarine
16:23 / 19.09.03
[thread rot] Jesus, Razor Blade Smile. It was like the cover of the US edition of Bridget Jones' Diary was made into a vampire and went around reciting horrible, horrible lines. [end thread rot yes I know I'm a moderator and should know better].

Having skimmed through the complaint by White Wolf, some of the points seem absolutely ridiculous, like "The character in Nancy A. Collins' story is described as rebelious. The character in Underworld is described as rebelious." I realize they need to pick up on every point they can, but criminy. I think the Penny Arcade comic sums it up pretty well.
 
 
Logos
03:08 / 21.09.03
You know, I went to see it tonight. After all the nasty reviews, I expected that it would be pretty horrible, but apart from one or two actors ACTING!!! while everyone else was acting, I liked it quite a bit.

Then again, I could watch Kate Beckinsale read a laundry list on camera and be entertained.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:21 / 21.09.03
Yeah, I can't quite see where all the negative press/feedback is coming from... I thought it was a lot of fun, and much smarter than I'd anticipated.

SPOILERS









The big twist is predictable on a vague level but surprising in the specifics - by which I mean that you can see the fact that the Lycans aren't just horrible mindless baddies who started a war for no reason coming a mile away, but it's surprising just how sympathetic Lucien is and that Victor is such an out-and-out bastard in the end. (Still, Lucien's origins may be tragic and understandable, and his aims noble, but that doesn't make his methods any less appalling.) There's an admirable large number of characters whose agendas are specific and personal and who the audience will feel complicated about, and although the film resolves this by sticking them all in some tunnels with a lot of guns and sharp things, it doesn't play out in an entirely predictable way - Lucien never gets to even wolf out, let alone scrap with Victor, while Kraven (one for the body count, I expected) is allowed to slope away with just a flesh wound. And in the end the final fight is generational - Victor scared of his replacement, scared of his children, as Quentin Quire would have it.

Couldn't get past the fact that Lucien was being played by the guy who's Tony Blair in the forthcoming drama 'The Deal - I kept expecting him to call Kraven 'Gordon'...

And as ear-drum bursting, masonry shattering, PVC-tastic gunporn action movie eye candy, it was a darn sight better than The Matrix Reloaded...
 
 
Catjerome
20:28 / 21.09.03
slight spoiler







Saw it on Friday night. It was nice to look at, but the plot wasn't much on staying-in-your-mind power. Plus after about half the film our entire audience just collectively thought "Wait, this is somewhat silly!" and started laughing at inappropriate places. It was great.

I'm baffled, though, at all of the promo chatter that said it was a Romeo and Juliet story. Where was that? I couldn't see it at all, except for maybe that one small semikiss between Kate and Whatshisface (that the audience laughed at).

Also: I want Kate's haircut, now please.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:53 / 21.09.03
I want Kate's clothes.

And yep, Razorblade Smile, managed 5 minutes of it.
 
 
cusm
20:05 / 22.09.03
I want Kate's clothes.

On my bedroom floor. And maybe hanging askew from lamps about the room, slightly torn.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
15:10 / 24.09.03
Posted by Flyboy

"And as ear-drum bursting, masonry shattering, PVC-tastic gunporn action movie eye candy, it was a darn sight better than The Matrix Reloaded..."

Is that an ironic pose or do you really believe that?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:59 / 24.09.03
As I'm sure I've said many a time, I don't do ironic poses. My thoughts on The Matrix Reloaded were summed up pretty exhaustively by the naysayers in this epic thread. That movie isn't without the odd enjoyable moment (usually undercut or spoiled minutes later - eg the ghost guys are scary opponents when they have shaving razors, not when they have machine guns), and Underworld isn't perfect - but I found the latter to be an enjoyable Saturday night out, while the former was what felt like five hours of my life that I want back.

Another point in Underworld's favour: there are nice little touches/connections that the film doesn't explain, let alone bash you over the head with, but you can piece them together if you keep your eys open - eg, Lucien's tattoo is the same symbol that appears on Victor's tomb (which nobody mentions because this is in the history books you're not supposed to read). Odd, and never commented on explicity, but it turns out this is because Lucien was Victor's slave - presumably he was then more than willing to cut this mark off to provide Kraven with the 'proof' of his death...
 
 
_pin
00:01 / 26.09.03
SPOILERS, DILLWEEDFACE














Fucking man from People Like Us getting his head cut in half! What the fuck are people shitting on here??
 
 
Jack Vincennes
17:03 / 06.10.03
I really wanted to enjoy this, just as a movie which I wouldn't have to think about too much (read: at all), but even my love of trashy movies can't justify this one.

I think that the defining moment of dreadfulness (and this may be some kind of spoiler, but if you've not seen this I can tell you in advance that the plot is the least of your worries) was when Michael was in the back of the police car, turning into a werewolf. The driver looks over his shoulder and... puts on a tape of some indeterminate metal. At full volume. So what do you do when you realise you're soon to be driving a 7ft werewolf around the streets of Prague? ROCK OUT, that's what. Yeah.

Kate Beckinsale, however, looks very good, as I believe has been noted before in this thread.
 
 
gridley
18:47 / 06.10.03
yeah, all my obscene love for Kate Beckinsale and happy memories of playing Vampire: The Masquerade couldn't turn this into a good film.

None of the characters had anything more than a one-dimensional personality. And what passed for plot was mostly just people going from here to there.

I mean does the character of Selene have any idea why she wears head-to-toe pvc? She doesn't seem like someone who gives a shit about what she looks like, so wouldn't she be more comfortable in jeans and a t-shirt?

I really think they should have focused the spotlight on one of those decadent red velvet stoner vampires that lived in the communal chill-out room. At least, they might have had something witty to say...
 
 
Simplist
20:14 / 06.10.03
Finally saw this yesterday afternoon, and lacking any kind of exaggerated expectations I quite enjoyed it. Very solid for what it was, a good afternoon's diversion. Very pretty, very stylish. Decent action (though nothing we haven't seen before at this point). The plot was fairly predictable, but did resolve in a reasonably complex fashion. My only major criticism would the alleged love story between Kate's character and Michael--it was so underplayed/underexplicated that it didn't even seem to be happening (possibly an establishing scene or two was cut?). When they start acting on these alleged feelings (he wants to stick with her rather than hiding, she helps him escape when she's supposed to kill him), it's not really clear why they're doing what they're doing, as the emotional connection between them has hardly been established. That said, I'm looking forward to (the obviously forthcoming) chapter 2.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:53 / 06.10.03
I enjoyed it immensely. *But* primarily because it was so very silly.


S

P

O

I

L

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R

S

First up, the paper-thin characterisation, and the fact that a startling amount of dialogue was (a) very silly and (b) contained massive undigested chunks of exposition cake.

Then there is the fact that our story opens at the moment that the werewolves have discovered a way to kill vampires, and the vampires shortly thereafter discover a way to kill werewolves. We see that previous werewolf-killing methods are at best thoroughly inefficient. How many people have actually died in the previous six centuries? I'll tell you. One. And that was Lucian. And he didn't actualy die. Death-dealers my arse.

Also, the vampires suck. Especialy ones who decide to handle gigantic masses of angry werewolf with *some whips*. They may be strong, but not as strong as Lycans until they have got to be Level 20. In order to be saved by doe-eyed boy, Selene has to pass out from a shoulder wound, and has subsequently to get CPR (WHAT? Did they forget about the vampire bit?). In essence, their one gift is to land on things.

Further, the vampires are very stupid. If you are delivering your elder to another coven, don't do it on a train. Trains are very obvious (Lycans can phone up directory enquiries) and it is very hard, if attacked by Lycans, to hang a left and lose them in the side-streets. Second, it may be a good idea not to store your other two elders in the same room. I'm just saying.

Having said all of which, and trying to ignore the utterly unnecessary shoehorned romance plot (how much better if Selene had done all this due to moral conviction or distrust of Kraven, who IS CALLED KRAVEN FOR GOD'S SAKE IS HIS MIDDLE NAME TREACHEROUS, rather than hetero goo), and the aforementioned crowbarrng of the industrial soundtrack, it was fun. Budapest is very handsome, everybody looked good (although the Lycans moved wrong, and I wish just once that vampires would not be fucking goths - at least Kraven had the courage to be disco), the action was generally nicely done, and Selene had a magic laptop, which is always good.

So, less expository narrative, more coherent plotting (did Kraven or Lucian actually have a coherent plan?) and better dialogue would have been nice (all the "leave us" must have been a running joke), but I still had fun. Definitely a film to see with friends to giggle along with, though...
 
 
The Strobe
21:43 / 06.10.03
I'd pretty much summarise it as one of the most terrible films I've ever paid money to see, but hey, now I know how bad films can get. Still, I enjoyed it more than Matrix Reloaded.

What the fuck was Bill Nighy doing in this? He didn't even get to sneer enough. Or be rude enough. He just got covered in latex. Still, hurrah for shitty cgi head-splitting effects. It's The Matrix versus Ultraviolet with a lovely, lovely side order of Highlander. Highlander, I tell you.

So much nonsense - all the vampires in the country live in one house? Stupid character names, and in particularly, the aforementioned Kraven's disco shirts (though not his disco accent)? Silver nitrate that looks like mercury?

SUNLIGHT BULLETS???

I think the "rocking out" bit Vincennes alluded to was easily the funniest thing in the film. I kind-of liked the doublecrossing, even if it was all a silly, and the werewolf transformations weren't dreadful. Scott Speedman was fucking awful, though. And the trailer gave away two moderate spoilers - what super-Michael looks like, and Kate's dodgy sword-wirework.

Kate was pretty though, wasn't she? Basically, the whole thing was appalling but I got a laugh out of it. I also got deafened. It's probably the loudest film I've ever seen - guns, metal, gunsmetal, etc.

It's probably more fun the more friends you go with, but on my own, it'd have been excruciating. Bill Nighy, though. Is this pennance or something?
 
 
Jack Vincennes
09:44 / 07.10.03
Bill Nighy, though. Is this pennance or something?

Probably for appearing in I Capture The Castle. It's a vicious cycle.

To Underworld's credit, I haven't enjoyed disliking a film this much for some time. As Haus pointed out, the vampires in it were rubbish : the result of any given fight scene was more or less obvious when the werewolf and the vampire had what looked like a shouting contest at the start. The werewolf was a foot taller and wider than the vampire, had huge teeth designed for savaging, looked scary - and the vampire had sharpish teeth and silly contact lenses (sp?). Hmn.
 
  

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