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Organic food

 
 
Fist Fun
05:17 / 15.02.02
Spawned from the GM thread.
Organic food is it a "good thing"? Do you eat it? Why? Why not?
Personally I don't eat much organic food. Mainly because I am not sure about the scientific basis of it being better than normal food. My partner is a plant scientist and, according to her, it isn't better. It is mostly a marketing ploy - well at least it is when you buy organic bananas from Asda.
Of course there isn't just the scientific side, there is the political side as well. What I'd really like to get out of this discussion are some rock solid arguments FOR organic food, so then I can bounce them off my own personal plant authority and see which ones stand up to scrutiny.
 
 
Ariadne
06:44 / 15.02.02
I'm a bit erratic in this - sometimes I'll buy organic, sometimes I don't other. I do try to get organic milk and cheese because I think it's less likely to have chemical residues and other nastiness in it. I also assume the cows are treated better but have absolutely no basis for that belief!

I think the argument for going for organic is along the lines of "less bad for you" rather than better - the food itself is the same, I suppose, but you avoid the chemicals that are usually put into the soil and sprayed on the crops. Which has to be a benefit, surely?

And politically - yes, when I'm in the mood to make the effort I try to buy organic stuff from smaller growers at farmers markets as opposed to buying from the supermarkets.
 
 
Fist Fun
07:01 / 15.02.02
quote:the food itself is the same, I suppose, but you avoid the chemicals that are usually put into the soil and sprayed on the crops. Which has to be a benefit, surely?

Well no. There is an illogical unscientific taboo raising its head again. It seems intuitive that food treated with chemicals are worse than those treated naturally. Is it though?
I have absolutely no problem with treating plants with cropsprays, as long as they have been thoroughly tested as safe for everyone and everything involved. This isn't the case right now, but that isn't a reason to rule out the technique entirely.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:29 / 15.02.02
I dunno about residues being non-harmful... isn't there a government recommendation that people should wash all fruit and veg before thye eat it because of chemical residues on the skin? Pesticides are designed to be harmful to some forms of life - I don't think it's surprising that people are a little worried about ingesting them (whatever scientific basis there may or may not be for this).
 
 
Ariadne
07:44 / 15.02.02
Yeah, - I don't believe that they are harmless. As Kit-Cat Club says, they're expressly designed to be harmful. If they were safe for 'everything' involved they'd be a waste of time and money for the farmer!
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
11:13 / 15.02.02
I'm a firm supporter of Organic food and eat it when economic options allow.

There are various reasons for doing this.

1) The environment consideration. The full effects of pesticides, man-made fertilizers etc are unknown. We have no idea what organisms we may be forcing into extinction and in addition to the ethical concerns about xenocide there are also the consideration of the knock on effect. {case example} way back in the day we killed all of the Dodo's, it wasn't until the late eighties that we discovered that there was a kind of tree that required the urine of the Dodo for propogation. We have yet to discover if the absence of this tree will affect another organism, but it hasn't been ruled out yet. {/case example}

2) The biological consideration. We can't claim to be fully aware of the biological effects on our own bodies. I may well piss off some scientists by saying this but the track record is not good. DDT, MDMA amongst many have had bad results that weren't anticipated. We evolved eating food that wasn't fucked around with and it's served us incredibly well. Sorry to say this but there are some areas where I don't trust the men in white coats.

3) The taste consideration. Amidst cries of psychosomatic I will happily maintain my stance that organic food tastes better. I honestly beleive this to be true and I love it when my food tastes better. I'm not talking about just vegetables, meat is better as well. There is nothing quite like an wonderful, medium organic steak.

Edited to add, if you want some extra info to look at for consideration, contact the Soil Association.

[ 15-02-2002: Message edited by: Wisdom of idiots ]
 
 
The Natural Way
11:36 / 15.02.02
Yeah I know, people go on about the psychsomatic thing, but I really love organically grown tatties. We have a farm shop dowen the rd that does lovely ones - lovely and nutty.
 
 
Ierne
12:23 / 15.02.02
I can't afford organic food. I do buy veggies & fruit at farmer's markets when I can though, to show some support for small farmers.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
02:35 / 16.02.02
I'm a bit slack with organic food; I prefer the taste much more than conventional produce and try to buy organic bulk food when I can. Most of the people I work and play with buy organics, and although it's pretty crazily expensive, it's way yummier. Most of the time. I'm living in a house where organic food isn't a priority at all. But we hardly ever buy fruit and veggies from the supermarket -- someone does a market shop every week, and I'm finding that stuff bought from the market is almost as good as organic food.

Reasons: Kit-Kat Club and YNH surveyed most of my reasons in the GM food thread, and I guess this is not just an argument for buying organic, but an argument for growing your own -- which I hope to do when I don't have such a crazy life. But in my experience (growing up on organic farm which doubled as a biodiversity 'creche', growing and sending away lots of different varieties of seed to interested people), the organic industry has a far better understanding of this stuff and often practices far better land management than conventional producers.
 
 
Polly Trotsky
04:34 / 16.02.02
I suppose I need to ask what constitutes a rock-solid argument. The suggestion that it's illogical and unscientific to question the use of pesticides, vermifuging, or radiation is silly.

In the US a baroque webwork of agencies shares responsibilities for determining safe levels of chemical residue in and on food. This is further complicated by grandfateher clauses and multiple acts/challenges.

Most pesticide registrations were granted before extensive cancer research even began, and many remain untested. Chemical horrors like cyanzanine and DVVP (neither of which are internationally regulated) were in use until 1998, and will remain in the soil and water of farming communities for generations.

The cavalier "this isn't the case right now" makes me fairly uncomfortable, Buk. What do we do? Sit around and wait for coincidental population studies when half the births to farm workers have flippers and no eyes?

And, really, that's only stuff sprayed at the source.

The FAO of the UN and the WHO have both voiced concerns over antibiotic and hormone "enhanced" livestock, noting: the possibility of long term build up of residue in the consumer, allergic and carcinogenic reactions, toxic environmental levels.

Even the GRAS (Generally Recognized as Safe) list is hopelessly backlogged with somewhere dozens of very common additives awaiting further testing and many with concrete toxicities (not, however, well publicized.)

Cottonseed oil, used as frying oil in many restaurants, isn't even technically a food.

But I ramble, and must stop.
 
 
Fist Fun
08:58 / 16.02.02
Fair enough that some methods of producing "unorganic" food are harmful, no one would dispute that. That is what we should fight to stop, but we shouldn't call into question every linked technique we should evaluate it on its merits. The point is that as long as techniques are thoroughly, stringently tested and documented to be safe by neutral bodies then they should be available for use. There shouldn't be a taboo about applying "unnatural" techniques, just because they don't feel right. If safe organic farming can meet the needs of a community then great, if safe unorganic farming can do it better then that is great too.
 
 
Tom Coates
08:58 / 16.02.02
Let's not forget what some of the chemicals are designed to do. My mother recalls when she was young you'd see adverts saying "Now with PRESERVATIVES!" - the idea being that the food would last longer, wouldn't spoil so quickly etc. Eating food that has gone off is probably much more harmful then eating food that's been given preservatives.

I'm not saying that chemical assistance is a good thing - just that there are actually considerations - not all chemicals are 'bad' and it seems to me a little simplistic and absurd to say "all chemicals bad", "no chemicals good". I mean take e-numbers - one of the big issues with people in the UK. One e-number just resolves to citric acid. One orange will have much more citric acid in it than any chocolate bar or pot noodle. It's completely not a bad thing - it's just a name for a chemical that stops things discoloring and which we eat every day...
 
 
Disco is My Class War
12:08 / 16.02.02
Yes but Tom, the point is that it's not just about additivies. Additives are their own issue. What I'm talking about is stuff that's being sprayed onto a whole ecosystem; the effects are always going to be unpredictable. Like superphosphate, for example, which was used in the fifites and sixties as a way of beefing up the soil. It worked, fantastically well, and lots of vegetables grew. Until the soil became phosphate-heavy, 20 years later, and it all died.

It would be anive to say 'all chemicals are bad'. But until chemicals are made by someone other than mercenary companies who need to sell products to make cash, I'm going to continue to be verrrry sceptical.
 
 
Polly Trotsky
14:20 / 16.02.02
Tom, can you elaborate on e-numbers?

Citric acid has been tested and re-tested here, with no known toxicity and GRAS status.

I'd allow that when people find out it can strip petroleum off concrete they might "feel weird" about it, as Buk writes.
 
 
Grendix
03:16 / 19.02.02
hi all. I work at a natural foods co-op here in Atlanta, called SEVANANDA (it's sanskrit for 'service is bliss' or the 'joy of service')

We have product policy for certain items, ingredients that we choose not to carry, in deference to serving the people who shop there in the healthiest way possible. some of these are no processes sugars in anything, as they are artifically bleached, and that process reduces the benefits from the sugar, as well as adding chemicals to your body. we also don't carry anything w/ high fructose corn syrup, for same reason. nothing is artifically colored either. no food-grade dyes. there's been much evidence that food-dyes have been linked to cancer casuing agents.
(see M&M red dye #5 for example)

our produce is all organic, and for our grocery and healthcare products we do research to see how it's made and under what conditions.
now for the science. a woman wrote to our monthly newspaper praising us for carrying such good organic produce, as she's recovering from cancer, and would not trade her health for cheaper bananas that conventional stores carry.
she said she'd done a demograpghic survey at a store in town, before she went organic, and wanted to share what they'd slipped up and told her.
it seems this store, which had a flower/plant shoppe inside it was having trouble getting the roses and plants to bloom once brought into the store. it seems they were on the opposite end from the produce, all conventional. they finally tested, and it seemed that the chemicals which are gassed on the produce on trains, before shipping here had bee nwafting over across the store, and stunting the growth and bloom of the flowers there.
they agreed it was a big problem, as they kept losing money, but didn't do anything to stop it, just bought more plants.

think about that one for a second. it's across the store, just wafting around in the air, getting into your body. you don't know, and who knows how much effect it's having on you.
for the record, I am not vegetarian, tho for lent (tho not catholic) i've given up red meat and pork stuff again (was not eating it for 6 years, then my mom died, and people brought stuff to my aunt's house, and i didn't care what i ate)
I have stopped buying produce that's not organic, as you usually eat the skin or entire thing, I feel it's a better choice to get something better.

Also, from what I've seen, the companies that produce organic products seem to treat their workers better, especially since they're not exposed to toxic chemicals.
There's an organic milk-dairy Co-Operative called Organic Valley, and the farmers there grass-graze the cows, so they are treated better then forcefed ones.they also don't eat any GMO products (genetically modified organisims) in their grain. I only buy that milk, and it lasts in the fridge for at least three weeks (sometimes longer) and it still tastes good.

My General Manager went on a 9 day trip to nicarugua recently, to see how the Organic Equal Exchange coffee growers are treated, and what goes into picking this coffee. The farmers are treated w/ respect, and they get fair prices for their product, it helps support the local economy, and keeps them from having to grow crops such as cocoa for cocaine, and risk the US's drug martials buring them down to the ground. (but that's another story)

so, while it's not really scientific, it's what I know personally.

I try to buy wisely with my dollar, and think about who/what I am supporting with it.


For those who eat pizza in the US:
Domino's owner gives $100,000 per year to Operation Rescue, which three of the abortion doctor murderers had connections

For those who drink soda: PEPSI Co. gives over $1 Million EACH YEAR to various anti-abortion causes in the USA.

Choice wisely, how you spend does have an effect on what you get, or get taken away, from you.

*getting off soapbox now*

feel free to email me at Grendix@another.com if you've got any questions or rants.
 
  
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