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The truth comes out about the Ecstasy study

 
 
Querelle
04:07 / 08.09.03
Remember that story not so long ago about the John Hopkins study that confirmed that Ecstasy destroyed dopamine-producing neurons in the brain, possibly leading to Parkinson's disease, which sent waves of shock and horror through our quaint suburbs? Turns out the substance they were using in the study was methamphetamine, not MDMA.



2 questions:

1) How this possibly could have occured, especially at John Hopkins, is beyond me. Apparently the researchers did no kind of reagent verification to confirm how pure the substance was that they were working with, or even if they had the right substance. A simple melting point analysis or chromatography (extremely simple tests) would have shown that they weren't even using the correct drug in the first place.

2) Why is this nowhere to be found on the pages of CNN or MSNBC? You can best your ass that this was on the front page in 52-point font when the erroneous study came out. So why not report it now? Isn't it in the interest of the public to know the truth about this important, potentially policy making bit of disinformation? Of course not, since it doesn't fit in with the "Just Say No" mentality STILL in force in America. Gotta push that fear (see: Bowling for Columbine).

Has anyone who doesn't live in the States heard about this on the news / in your papers?

What is the solution to this problem?
 
 
raelianautopsy
07:10 / 08.09.03
But doesn't that mean that methamphatemines cause Parkinsons so there still are drugs that are bad for you? The problem with America is they don't want to say that there are levels to what drugs are worse for you, and which are least harmless. They just want to say all are equally bad. Not to mention the hypocrasy of our society's obsession with legal perscription drugs, often just as or more dangerous than the illegal one. But still, drugs are mostly bad and the fact of the matter is that the system wants you to be a stupid junkie ready for prison slave labor. Supposedly Bush's family and the British royal family and the CIA are the controlling drug runners of the world (opium production has signifaganly risen in Afghanistan since the U.S. has occupied them). My main point is legalize marijuana but don't take ecstasy or methampatamine (or prozac and ritalin).
 
 
Thjatsi
09:26 / 08.09.03
A simple melting point analysis or chromatography (extremely simple tests) would have shown that they weren't even using the correct drug in the first place.

That's a silly remark. It is true that both of those tests are easy to perform. However, no sane person wastes thirty minutes getting a melting point for every chemical that comes into the lab.
 
 
Quantum
09:57 / 08.09.03
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3089350.stm

Colin Blakemore, a Professor of Physiology at Oxford University, said that the sheer number of primates left dead or severely damaged already seemed implausible.

He told the BBC: "Whatever we think about the toxicity of Ecstasy, 40% of people using it each weekend do not die."
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:59 / 08.09.03
Well they should do that kind of test when they're doing a major, costly research project in to an illegal drug.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:16 / 08.09.03
However, no sane person wastes thirty minutes getting a melting point for every chemical that comes into the lab. - Thjatsi

I have no idea about standard lab procedure but is it really standard not to perform purity tests on the main object of study?
 
 
grant
20:50 / 08.09.03
Well, from what I understand, the researcher administering the test would simply trust that the lab has produced what ze asked them to produce.

From what the Salon article says, it appears that what the Johns Hopkins researchers should have done is *checked the freakin' LABEL*, since the problem was that the lab cooked up and delivered a batch of methamphetamine the same day as they cooked up and delivered the methelenedioxymethamphetamine.

It's not that the lab didn't cook up what was asked for, it's that the delivery person swapped bottles. Which means whoever was expecting the meth elsewhere at Johns Hopkins ALSO had the wrong compound....
 
 
Bastard Shit Man
01:13 / 09.09.03
I feel sorry for the monkeys.

“HOOT!! Shit-scientist, shit-scientist! Hhnh.”
 
 
ephemerat
03:06 / 09.09.03
Which means whoever was expecting the meth elsewhere at Johns Hopkins ALSO had the wrong compound....

Did anyone else get a sudden yearning for that missing bottle?

More seriously, as Dr Ricaurte is quoted as saying: "This apparent labelling error does not call into question the results of multiple previous studies demonstrating the neurotoxic potential of MDMA (Ecstasy) in various animal species." While I may question the often contradictory evidence in many of these studies it seems foolish to throw out any possibility of (potentially permanent) neurological damage resulting from Ecstasy use on the basis of one label mix-up (regardless of the publicity surrounding the botched results).

Obviously, I use E myself along with a range of other potentially, or actually proven, harmful substances (including nicotine and alchohol) but I'm not about to throw out good scientific research simply because its results may conflict with my own wishes. There have been other reports (e.g. the one from the LMU) linking Ecstasy to depression as much as there have been ones linking it to potential positive benefits (e.g. as a potential aid for Parkinson's patients).
 
 
Nematode
20:35 / 09.09.03
Do we need research to tell us something that is fairly obvious about 'e' use. You do it a bit it's ok. You keep doing it you start to suffer radical depression on a wednesday. You plug on and you end up fried and on prozac. You can't get feelings that nice indefinately for ten quid, that's just not the way it works.
 
 
Ganesh
21:36 / 09.09.03
You need research to know how generalisable your own experiences are, yes.
 
 
Lurid Archive
00:14 / 10.09.03
Agreed. Though, to be fair, research into the adverse effects of drugs is so politicised that many prefer anecdotal evidence. I've certainly heard many people recount and experienced myself the depression that Nematode describes. I don't know anyone that has suffered brain damage due to ecstacy.

While I don't want to dismiss any research into the harmful effects of illegal drugs, I have to also acknowledge that the scientists' credibility gap in this area isn't just due to wishful thinking on the part of users.

BTW - I read about this in the Observer, which is mainstream media.
 
 
Thjatsi
03:44 / 10.09.03
I have no idea about standard lab procedure but is it really standard not to perform purity tests on the main object of study?

Actually, we work with doxycycline, and no one in the lab that I know of has ever tested it to make sure it isn't some other antibiotic. If it were, say puromycin, the results of half the lab would be fucked for a year.

You people are making me paranoid. For a second there, I was actually considering taking a sample down to the organic chemistry department. Like I don't have enough real problems to worry about already.
 
 
Jrod
09:54 / 10.09.03
So, the net effect of this study was to create the perception that E is as dangerous as crystal meth. Great news for the drug warriors. Thing is, the effect of meth use on dopamine production has been well known for some time. While E certainly has the same effect, surely it's nowhere near as pronounced and rapid. It would be interesting to know for certain, but someone fucked up the experiment to find out. Oopsie!

Though anecdotal evidence doesn't "prove" anything, just ask anybody who's actually used both meth and E which drug is more harmful, and you'll get the same answer, I bet. When it comes to killing your brain, ecstasy can't hold a candle to crystal meth, aka choad, aka ice, aka that horrible shit.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:21 / 10.09.03
Thjatsi, I'm still slightly surprised. Perhaps I don't know enough about how these chemicals are produced, but it strikes me that many things could go wrong on any particular batch. What if some technician was half asleep, or there was a variance in purity or someone put the wrong labels on the bottles. Sure, these things don't happen often but, as you say, you could lose a lot of research time.
 
 
grant
14:46 / 10.09.03
Again, this is just my general impression (as someone who's read about this stuff) but I don't think most pharmaceutical researchers have the ability to test the stuff right where they're working with test subjects. They'd have to take a sample elsewhere, to a chemical lab - maybe on the same campus, maybe not.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
 
Thjatsi
15:35 / 10.09.03
Though anecdotal evidence doesn't "prove" anything, just ask anybody who's actually used both meth and E which drug is more harmful, and you'll get the same answer, I bet.

I've done both, and I think that MDMA is far worse than speed. I've tried speed about three times, and felt sort of weird for the next two days on each occasion. I did E once, and had massive mood swings for the next month or two. Massive mood swings aren't fun when bipolar disorder runs in your family.

Back to science.

Lurid, you've freaked me out, I'm going to ask the lab about it today.

Grant, the apparatus for getting a melting point is located in most organic chemistry labs. We don't have one to my knowledge, but it wouldn't be hard to borrow one for a few minutes.
 
 
Nematode
15:52 / 10.09.03
Duno what the situations like now but as far as I can tell I got pure e just twice in my pill period which was from about '91-'93. So what on earth was I taking and what was the long term effect? Surely that is, in the context of mass usage, the relevant question.
 
 
Jrod
02:50 / 11.09.03
I've done both, and I think that MDMA is far worse than speed. I've tried speed about three times, and felt sort of weird for the next two days on each occasion. I did E once, and had massive mood swings for the next month or two. Massive mood swings aren't fun when bipolar disorder runs in your family.

Guess I lose that bet. However, keep in mind that speed is not neccessarily meth. Generally, meth doesn't just make you feel weird for a few days, it keeps you awake for a few days. There are many forms of speed, with varying potencies. I wouldn't reccomend any of them to anybody with any mental problems of any stripe, but some are worse than others.

In many ways, lab results are misleading simply because you never know what exactly you're buying through the black market. They're still important, of course, but mean little to the actual users. People are using crank some fool mixed up in a bucket using lye and ephidrine all over the US, and it's unlikely lab results will tell us much about the long term effects this stuff has. There won't be any human studies using such crap, I hope.

In most cases, one time use of either meth or E won't do much or any damage. It's the effects of long term use that are important. Have there been studies on the addictive nature of "uppers"? Is caffiene more likely to hook someone than E, or vice versa? How does legality and availability determine the likelyhood of a casual user becoming an addict? We need more real world studies using black market substances... though it would be difficult to pull off.

Perhaps subjecting street drugs from various sources in an area to chemical analysis, and obverving the effects on the people who willingly use them would be a start. It would require that researchers gain the trust of the people engaging in this illegal activity, of course. That's a tall order when it comes to a subculture that's generally quite paranoid. Sorry if I've veered a bit off topic.
 
 
Thjatsi
07:40 / 11.09.03
However, keep in mind that speed is not neccessarily meth.

Good point. I suspect that I was doing some sort of purified ephedrine each of those times, but I'm not certain.

I asked the two most experienced people in my lab about testing incoming chemicals for purity. They both looked at me like I was an idiot, and said that sort of mistake is almost impossible.
 
 
grant
02:22 / 28.02.04
Hey! New MDMA study approved! Pychotherapeutic! With human trials!

Dr. Michael Mithoefer plans to conduct psychotherapy sessions with 20 women who suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder due to sexual assaults or other violence, and who haven't been helped by other treatment. Twelve of the women will receive MDMA prior to the sessions while eight will be given a placebo.

The Food and Drug Administration approved Mithoefer's protocol in 2001, but it took another two years to find an institutional review board willing to sanction the study, which is a required step when dealing with human research subjects.


You can read his protocols here, at the MAPS site.
 
 
Querelle
19:13 / 30.03.04
I think that's great news, grant. It's pretty clear to me and to the psychologists who did work with MDMA before (and after) it was scheduled that it does have theraputic value. I used to really suffer from social anxiety, which is something I still deal with though I'm on medication for it, but I remember my first couple of Ecstasy trips as being fundamental to reorienting my thinking re other people and putting me in a mental space where I realized I had the capacity to feel happy and connect with other people on levels I hadn't before. I imagine it would be pretty effective in a similar way to people dealing with PTSD.
 
 
The Falcon
14:28 / 07.04.04
"Whatever we think about the toxicity of Ecstasy, 40% of people using it each weekend do not die."

Surely closer to 99.9999%, no?
 
 
cusm
20:18 / 07.04.04
No, that's 40% do not die, EVER.

Now you know why its so popular, eh?
 
 
The Falcon
01:18 / 19.04.04
Sweet.

That means I can smoke even more.
 
 
Gyan
18:55 / 22.04.04
Hope you people don't mind a link to another forum, but I wrote a potentially useful question elsewhere. No one there could help, but maybe someone here can.
 
  
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