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Mbeki's request to anti-capitalist protesters.

 
 
Strange Machine Vs The Virus with Shoes
21:32 / 04.09.03
I read about this in the London Metro free paper of all things. Can anyone give any corroborative info? For those who know how global capitalism works this is a big coup. The ANC gained freedom from white rule, but South Africa was not free from western capitalist exploitation. From many accounts it got a lot worse. Water and electricity have been privatised to appease the IMK/World Bank. The ANC gained power only to realise that there were more powerful forces at work, they are trying to straddle two worlds. The people and the markets. They need our help in any way possible. We, as members of the countries that control the global capital organisation surely have some power in changing them? These institutions may face resistance from those the impose their directives on, but they can argue this away with the idea that they are ignorant of global economics. We have a duty to act/react.
 
 
SMS
14:39 / 05.09.03
I'm afraid I don't follow South African politics very closely. What was Mbeki's rewuest to anti-capitalists?
 
 
Thjatsi
17:09 / 05.09.03
Yes, perhaps we would be more willing to help if you expanded a bit on this issue. Or maybe you could link to some reading material for us?
 
 
raelianautopsy
07:43 / 06.09.03
I don't know about this specific thing, but from my understandings the problems with South Africa, sadly worse now than under apartheid, are due to communism(which Mandela was party to), not capitolism. Regardless, there are serious problems all over Africa that cannot no longer be blamed on "the evil coloniol West", and need to be solved and taken responsibility for by their own citizens, instead of endless wasted foreign aid. If too much privitization is in fact the problem, why can't their government stop it? They are not total slaves to the WTO, its a volounteered orginization, China begged to get in.
 
 
Linus Dunce
13:29 / 06.09.03
Trying in vain to find information on this story, I only found some far-left groups describing Mbeki as something of a turncoat. I was not able to find a copy of the Metro article, however it doesn't surprise me that it would print, "African leader promotes chaos in his own once-ordered country" whether it was true, half-true or not at all.

I visited the Cape not so long ago and, despite having a robust left-wing, it certainly isn't a communist state. It has visible and real problems with poverty, race and HIV but I'm really not clear on how things are "worse" than under apartheid. Perhaps by the anti-capitalist definition things are a priori worse because there is no longer any centralised control of the means of production, which is the ultimate goal of our dear, crypto-marxist friends.

You know, I might join them, if it wasn't for things like ...

For those who know how global capitalism works

Join our exclusive club.

They need our help in any way possible

They can't help themselves, poor things, and we should do whatever we feel is OK, unless we're the IMF or whatever, then meddling in other countries' affairs is wrong.

they can argue [resistance] away with the idea that they are ignorant of global economics.

Don't read any economics or history books, you don't need to worry about that.

We have a duty to act/react.

Be a good soldier.

Viral marketing, anyone?
 
 
Helmschmied
13:30 / 06.09.03
But the IMF does have power. If they refuse their demands, the IMF cuts off the aid money, and they could see their international trade and credit rating die.
 
 
Linus Dunce
14:01 / 06.09.03
Absolutely. That's the way it works. That's what banks do.
 
 
raelianautopsy
16:52 / 06.09.03
I still wish I knew of the specific article so I could know what I'm talking about. But shouldn't countries have a level of self-sufficiency without the humiliation of being totally dependent on charity? The American welfare state, foreign aid, all of these have just made problems worse over time for the needy. And as far as I know the intense poverty and disease shows that things are worse, they are rapidly turning into a third-world country. As far as I know Mandela did describe himself as a communist, and I'd imagine that has something to do with the direction the countrys going, although I'm no expert. What usually happens in revolutions is that instead by seizing the bougaisee(spelling?)/white colonialists/, etc. they never bring themselves up to their level, instead they bring the upper class down to their's and everyone just stays poor. But Globalist capitolism is a diffirent kind than historically sound protectionism capitolism which is obviously the preference for self-sufficiency. Of course, capitolism is the worst system of all except for all the other ones.
 
 
Linus Dunce
18:44 / 06.09.03
raelianautopsy -- Disease is worse because they cannot afford to pay western prices for medicine. It has nothing to do with communism. This story has been in the news recently:

See here.

Even after redistributing some of the wealth, South Africa is overall a poor country. This is why their currency won't buy much in the west, and why they had to convince the WTO to let them have western drugs at a special cheap rate. Even if all their resources were pooled, I'm afraid it wouldn't make everyone bourgeoise. There simply isn't enough to go round. And SA's revolution wasn't about socialism -- it was about democracy and the rights of black people. It would be nice if either side of the capitalist/anti-capitalist argument could provide the solution. But it won't. It's not a matter of being humiliated or whether it's right or wrong that they pay their utility bills to a private company (BTW, nationalised utilities charge their customers too) -- it's about pragmatism and compromise and finding a way out of the mess.

And, speaking of pragmatism, don't be so quick to knock government aid. It helped your country through some bad times -- read The Grapes of Wrath.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:36 / 06.09.03
Note, too, that South Africa's "revolution" was less an all-out revolution than a series of radical governmental reforms, which were brought about, in large part, by international economic pressures.

In other words, global capitalism made the end of apartheid both possible and inevitable.
 
 
raelianautopsy
01:47 / 07.09.03
I know it wasn't a violont revolution, but its still a radically diffirent country than that of however many years ago, not just the apartheid changes.

But there was always disease, not just AIDS, and there was always expensive drugs. What is diffirent now? Not to mention the government doesn't believe HIV and AIDS are related. Of course, that may be true and I may be wrong. Again, I don't know that much about South Africa, but this is my opinion based on the facts I do know.

And I'm still against all governent welfare (and corporate welfare) and foreign aid. Name one country better off after recieving foreign aid and eventually got off that aid.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:34 / 07.09.03
But there was always disease, not just AIDS, and there was always expensive drugs. What is diffirent now?

Well, most obviously that the entire polity is meant to be being treated to an equal standard, rather than a tiered system existing in effect for different colours. This is pretty basic stuff..

Not to mention the government doesn't believe HIV and AIDS are related.

Thabo Mbeki said that, some years ago. "The Government" is a different entity. He was, if I recall, primarily attempting to draw attention to the fact that a) South Africa could not afford AZT or other combination treatments, and thus could not organise a prevention régime on those lines, and b) that AIDS resulted from poverty, which is to say that a low standard of living, limited hygiene and so on were things leading to the growth of AIDS (a syndrome resulting from the inability of the body to fight off infections) in South Africa. The absence of a causal link between HIV and AIDS seems to have been ignored as a concept by health organisations throughout SA, but the poverty argument seems valid - if you have no way to prevent infection, you are more likely to develop full-blown AIDS sooner.

Name one country better off after recieving foreign aid and eventually got off that aid.

Germany. Next?
 
 
_pin
11:29 / 07.09.03
Here's an idea: as most developed Western countires built up thier wealth by exploiting hugh numbers of people (we could consider this aid), and thus never really ahd to bother with labour costs and so stuff was cheap, why don't we just send people to them as slaves? This would save a lot of money, becuase it would be a one-off payment on shipping costs only.

What, that's a shit plan? Let's give them money instead then. We can term it retroactive payment for services rendered. And Ignatius_J, did you say that the way the IMF, which isn't a bank, operated was completely fair and just and benefical simply because that is the way banks work? And it's everyone elses fault if the system doesn't work, and can't possibly becuase banks might opperate unfairly, bearing in mind that the IMF isn't a bank because the World, um... Bank is?

And how is welfare making things worse, except stopping people from dying, so there's more poor people to need looking after? SA's govt should probablly just restrict it's work to white people, so they could afford it. Eventually all the black people would die, and we wouldn't have to worry anymore. Or maybe we could just ship all our journalists out of there, so that we don't have to watch poor people dying on television and feel guilty about it- I know it would solve my problems.

And yes, state-owned utility companies charge their customers, but they don't charge them for the utility, the maintenance costs, a return for investors and overly-inflated bonuses for foreign bosses that thus do not benefit the SA econmy at all. It's probablly quite likely it'd work out cheaper under a different, state-owned system, isn't it?

Can someone please tell me this request now?
 
 
Linus Dunce
15:21 / 07.09.03
And Ignatius_J, did you say that the way the IMF, which isn't a bank, operated was completely fair and just and benefical simply because that is the way banks work? And it's everyone elses fault if the system doesn't work, and can't possibly becuase banks might opperate unfairly, bearing in mind that the IMF isn't a bank because the World, um... Bank is?

Er, no, I didn't say that. I'm currently trying to avoid histrionics, and I thought I was doing rather well. If you point your pupils at the words I wrote in sequence from left to right, top to bottom, you will be able to verify that for yourself.

However, I did refer to the IMF indirectly as a bank, evern though don't have the word "bank" in their title. My mistake, sorry. But, in their own words, they do this:

The IMF provides credits and loans to member countries with balance of payments problems to support policies of adjustment and reform.

so perhaps you would forgive my sloppiness. Perhaps we should have a word with The Halifax etc. as well for not having the word "bank" in their titles either.

[Utilities] It's probablly quite likely it'd work out cheaper under a different, state-owned system, isn't it?

So exactly where and when has that worked before?

We can't find the request, sorry. That may be important.

Name one country better off after recieving foreign aid and eventually got off that aid.

The UK. Next again!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:06 / 07.09.03
So, conversely, since Mbeki's response to anti-capitalist proteastors remains obscure...how about if we abolish foreign aid, and at the same time abolish trade restrictions and farming subsidies? In which case, we suddenly have a lot of food that is comparatively cheap as chips, against subsidy-hungry big European and American farming businesses...

And how about if at the same time we ask countries currently in hock to the IMF to subscribe to certain economic standards, including paying off what would otherwise be the interest on their loans over the next decade or so, in exchange for abolishing their debt and removing the right of the IMF to demand policy adjustments within what would otherwise be their national economic self-determiantion?

How does that work?
 
 
raelianautopsy
05:54 / 08.09.03
From my understanding South Africa's 'HIV and AIDS not related' statements are related to the conspiracy theories that say AIDS is not an STD, it comes from the medicine that they give you when you get HIV, and vaccines, and all that. See the book, What if Everthing You Thought You Knew About AIDS Was Wrong. One thing that made sense to me is the idea that most AIDS in Africa is not really AIDS but other diseases like Ebola, since they do not always have labrotory testing and AIDS does not even have specific symptoms. They just say that it is that for more aid. But if they're Mbeki is into conspiracy theories, why is he starting the African Union which is very New World Order?

Actually the history of foreign aid is complicated. Germany and Japan and the Marshall Plan were all giving aid to countries that were first-world before their infrastucture was destroyed and we helped them rebuild a new one. But every single country since then (except for South Korea- I haven't figured out why, maybe because of so soon after the victory high in WWII, of course but not North Korea; and Israel- more on Israel later) that America has either invaded, nation-builded, CIA meddling, or foriegn aiding has been worse off after America intervened. Iraq right now will probibly not be succesfully nation-built (remember when Bush was anti nation-building?) because you cant force a country to be modernized. Another diffirence between the post-WWII nation-building is that there was a draft to supply the manpower, and the American people will not accept a draft for a war whose reasons are now being shown to be demonstratebly false. Again, before they were former first world countries being aided, not now with third world countries being expected to be pushed into modernization when money sent is just stolen by the corrupt sytsems. You can help in small ways, but ultimately a country must use self-determination to evolve itself. Israel (which if counting Eygpt that only gets so much aid for signing the Camp David accords, gets almost half of all foreign aid) seems to have enough self control to not be corrupt with the money and put it all in their military. I think ultimately this is still flawed, not just for the anti-American terrorism motivations this causes, but because Israel is such an intensely military government that eventually there will be a military coup and the military democracy will be replaced by a military dictatorship. Israel greatest dangers will come from itself, not its neighbours. And when did the UK recieve foreign aid?

If slavery is the reason for America's wealth, than why did the North, which had less slaves, have more wealth and technology and won the civil war? Many modern countries did not become that way by conquering other countries, not to mention America did not steal slaves but bought them while they were already slaves in Africa. In relative to history, the real evil was breeding children born into slavery even after the slave trade was abolished. Still, you work backwards when you say that a country is rich because it conquered another, because that doesn't explain how they were superior enough before the conquering to win the war. And when did America ever oppress South Africa? In actuality, all the former colonielist powers already do give tons of aid to their former colonies.

I really don't know that terribly much about South African politics being socialist or not, I just know I'm against foreign aid for reasons above. It is definatelly true that globalist banking policies do not help the situation, but the countries still have some degree of responsibility for agreeing to them first.

With regards to welfare, it isn't keeping them from dying all over the place, just making the lower classes docile and draining their motivation. While many blacks in America are doing better, those are the ones that get themselves educated and move out of the ghetto. The ones still in the ghetto are getting worse and worse. For example, public housing is a total failure. If your rent was twenty dollars would you rush to get a job? Of course, another problem for the lower classes is the high-violence illegal culture due to Prohibiton drug laws. Some charity is good, but the over-all welfare state is degrading. I can never understand why activist-types are supposed to be so anti-government, but they want the government to solve all their problems.

Too much information. Does anyone out there agree with my commentary?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:40 / 08.09.03
Autopsy:

See the book, What if Everthing You Thought You Knew About AIDS Was Wrong. One thing that made sense to me is the idea that most AIDS in Africa is not really AIDS but other diseases like Ebola, since they do not always have labrotory testing and AIDS does not even have specific symptoms.

I haven't seen the book, but that particular example is utter nonsense. AIDS may not have specific symptoms, but Ebola most certainly does - a short incubation period followed by massive collapse and eventual deliquescence of the internal organs. No one, confronted by an Ebola victim, would have the slightest question in their minds that this person had something a little more immediate than HIV/AIDS. Ebola victims have a tendency to explode.

More generally, as I've said to you elsewhere, you need to start a thread and explain where you're coming from. We need the Raelianautopsy minimanifesto - emphasis on 'mini' because otherwise no one will have time to read it. Two to four hundred words on your starting points - otherwise it's hard to know where to start disagreeing with you. And believe me, there's much in what you say I'd like to disagree with, not least on the factual level, as above.

Haus:

how about if we abolish foreign aid, and at the same time abolish trade restrictions and farming subsidies? In which case, we suddenly have a lot of food that is comparatively cheap as chips, against subsidy-hungry big European and American farming businesses...

The problem there would be that you would either abolishing concealed subsidies such as the lack of tax on aviation fuel, or leaving them in place. The former course would hike up the price of imported foods, while the latter is one of the most profoundly environmentally unsound aspects of global economic policy.

And how about if at the same time we ask countries currently in hock to the IMF to subscribe to certain economic standards, including paying off what would otherwise be the interest on their loans over the next decade or so, in exchange for abolishing their debt and removing the right of the IMF to demand policy adjustments within what would otherwise be their national economic self-determiantion?

See Stiglitz, "Globalisation and its discontents"; countries need to develop indigenous industries before they deregulate and allow full access to their markets for forgeign corporations - otherwise the result appears to be the destruction of local competition and foreign-owned monopolies in short order - and such monopolies don't usually seem to function in the best interest of the country in question or even of their own long-term interest. The reason for this last is probably partly corporate culture, and partly legislative: it's still the case, I believe, that CEOs can be sued in the US for choosing a less financially rewarding but more ethical or more environmentally sound course; I'd love to see it happen in today's climate, and with the aid of someone like Stiglitz as an expert witness explaining why it was long-term better...

But I suspect you knew much of that, anyway. If you haven't read the book, by the way, it's a cracker.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:09 / 08.09.03
Oh, and for anyone who's interested, there's a supplement on Trade in the Guardian this morning - Stiglitz even has an article in there.

Haus - I realise I didn't factor in the effect of your suggestion on local food prices - Developing Country farmers would suddenly be able to compete with ours: EU cows are subsidised at a rate of eight hundred or so dollars a year...
 
 
SMS
14:55 / 08.09.03
raelienautopsy: Does anyone out there agree with my commentary?

I find it refreshing for Barbelith. I'm not sure where I stand on these matters, yet.

Sam Vega: We need the Raelianautopsy minimanifesto

It sounds like he's a pretty mainstream American libertarian to me. If he doesn't have time to write out minimanifesto, I'm sure you can find similar views by looking into the libertarian party. I hope I haven't prejudged you too much, raelienautopsy.
 
 
grant
20:37 / 08.09.03
Just for the record, Mandela and the ANC were communist fellow-travellers mainly because Communism was The Devil, as far as the apartheid gov't was concerned. They were hard-right wing authoritarians, engaged pretty baldly in the business of keeping the unwashed masses oppressed and in line. Keep your foot on the black man's neck lest he rise up and hold a knife to yours. Something like that.

One of Mandela's great strengths was in taking the populist message of communism and not applying it strictly along tribal lines -- there was a lot of fear that the Xhosas (majority of ANC, Mandela's tribe) were gonna try to squash the Zulus (Inkatha Party majority) once he got voted in, but the Inkatha are alive and healthy today. In other African countries, they weren't so lucky. And when it seemed like they were on the way to being lucky, the CIA started "meddling" (as in the deaths of Patrice Lumumba and Dag Hammarskjold), and the luck went away.

------

For the record, also, South Africa is *not* a poor nation. Most of the world's gold and diamonds come from there. The problem is, the owners of the mineral resources are so fantastically wealthy, they operate at a level at which concepts like "countries" and "citizenship" no longer quite apply. The Oppenheimers own DeBeers, who produce most or all of the diamonds. I think they operate out of the Netherlands when it suits them to do so, and have been so intimately connected with political power in South Africa for so long that they're pretty much immune to any sort of anti-trust or monopoly-busting action.
 
 
Linus Dunce
23:49 / 08.09.03
An interesting article on the real value of diamonds here. I wouldn't have thought it would be good to base an economy or measure a country's worth on them (and the value of the rand perhaps proves that no one does), bearing in mind as well, as the article explains, there are significant sources outside SA.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:59 / 10.09.03
From the Guardian:

Instead a coalition of developing countries, representing 60% of the world's farmers, has tabled its own far more ambitious proposal, which would substantially cut western farm subsidies - currently worth six times more than all global aid spending.
 
 
illmatic
09:04 / 10.09.03
RA – in response to your comments, yup, there is too much information there to respond to all of it. I appreciate you taking the time to express it though. I’m not exactly the political brain of Barelith but I’d like to respond to some of your comments about welfare in a new thread as this seem to be a key point divinding right-libertarin and leftist thinking - I've started a thread here.
 
 
Baz Auckland
13:10 / 10.09.03
I don't know if this was covered, but foreign aid isn't welfare, but low-interest loans. Those billions that are sent every year are added to the billions that are already owed. They call it aid, but still charge interest on it... A little different from welfare...
 
  
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