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Underground > Creation >

Jenny Everywhere and Gender

09:23 / 04.09.03

It's been mentioned briefly before, and has been a discussion point on a couple of blogs, but I'd like to hear thoughts about the issue of open-source character Jenny Everywhere and the fact that (so far) her creators have been exclusively male.

I'm particularly conscious of this debate as my Jenny story, My Bloody Valentine, has as its central plot device the conceit that when on her period, Jenny is more prone to "cycle" through her various incarnations. I thought it was a good way to illustrate Jenny's "power" (for want of a better word), but I confess to having slight doubts when writing it simply because of the fact that I'm not a woman.

One blogger (who posts here and will hopefully join in this topic) has suggested that first and foremost Jenny should be written as a person rather than a woman, especially given the gender of the people who are writing her at the moment (I'm paraphrasing the point there, and apologies if I'm off the target).

So what do we think? Jenny creators: how do you approach writing Jenny? How much weight do you give to her being a woman? Do you find it difficult, easy or don't you think about it?

Others: Do the comics read as though they are about a woman written by men? Does it show through in some more than others, or not at all? Does it matter?

Can male writers successfully write female characters?

Tryphena Absent

09:55 / 04.09.03

first and foremost Jenny should be written as a person rather than a woman, especially given the gender of the people who are writing her at the moment

I suppose that was my point to an extent but even as a woman writing Jenny Everywhere I think it's necessary to regard her as human rather than exclusively female. It's too easy to be drawn in to the cliches of femininity, writers do it all the time, Jenny could become a silly little girl far too easily. I suppose the one thing I don't like about My Bloody Valentine is that Jenny is presented as an exclusively heterosexual and extremely feminine young woman. If Jenny Everywhere is indeed the Shifter than perhaps she'd have more variation in her relationships- where's Jenny the top? Where's the Jenny who walks over her man? Where's Jenny the lesbian or the Jenny who prefers to be completely alone?

The reference to her period is great. I think that the male writers of Jenny shouldn't shy away from the fact she is female but simply remember that the detail surrounding her as a woman doesn't mean that she isn't also a simple human being.

There are two Jenny's that I like, David LoTempio's and Joe Macare's. I suspect this is because their characters are formed through the details of the relationships with other characters. This gives the writers scope for representing Jenny, not as a girl but as a person. If she is seen through her interaction she becomes like all of us...
I get the sense from both that they really like her and that contributes to our own view of Jenny Everywhere.

Goodness Gracious Meme

14:20 / 04.09.03

I'm very interested in this. (Especially as isn't Kit-Kat doing one now? one of yours, Sax?)

Couple of simple points. Barbelith is majority male, albeit more mixed than it's probably ever been. Jenny's a open-source comic book character. There are very few(??) id'd women who post regularly in the comics forum AFAIK(admittedly i only lurk occasionally so could be missing alot)

But this doesn't explain all of it. Youse who hang around the Creation, what's the gender split like in here?

There's also the fact that certain sorts of fiction attract different constituencies. Slash, for example, is overwhelmingly female. Comics, not to the same extent as slash, are percieved as very male-dominated, and still are, though not as much as previously.

For the rest, will go away and read them all again, have a think and come back. Have a hunch that I was very conscious of her being written/drawn by men in everything i've read, but i'm not sure why and don't want to jumpt in with both feet. just this once(!)

Have a nagging feeling that it's to due with elements of 'cuteness' in most of the presentations, textual/visual, and the possible 'alterna-sexualising' involved.

but then that's a part of thinking yr characters are *great* and not neccessarily a negative thing.

But generally agree with Anna's point, that unless her gender/sex are a pivotal part of the narrative (as with yr period thing. Which I rather liked.) then Jenny as character should be the starting point/focus, and that this may involve gender/sex-influenced points, but shouldn't start from them.

Course, i'm not a proper writer, and having just struggled like hell to write some dialogue for Nelson, i appreciate that this subtlety is a pain in the arse to achieve...

This is *vague* innit? I'll come back when I've read'em again...

And certainly male writers/creatives can 'do' women. it's not all Hemingway, by any means! It's about how one approaches one's characterisation,and as anna says,being conscious of not lapsing into cliche/generalisation.

14:56 / 04.09.03

One blogger (who posts here and will hopefully join in this topic) has suggested that first and foremost Jenny should be written as a person rather than a woman,

I think I'd go with this (assuming I've interpreted it correctly).
Jenny's basic appearance & persona doesn't suggest an especially feminine character, and she's got no sexual signifiers unless writers/artists go out of their way to add them, so she can easily be portrayed as pretty androgynous. I think the fact that, unlike more strongly coded masculine or feminine characters, her gender doesn't have to an issue unless you want it to be makes her even more suited to being an open-source character .. if that makes any sense..

15:10 / 04.09.03

Re "cuteness": I'm very aware of this with regard to what i've contributed so far, in that I've presented what is basically a blandly pretty girl who is probably an amalgam of past and present girlfriends. Although this is reflective of wider problems in the work I've done (as MBV was basically my first attempt to draw a comic "properly", with anatomically correct characters rather than wacky cartoons, I ended up being quite timid in my depictions for fear of having come out distorted or unrecognisable)*, it's definitely relevant here.

I don't know if any other creators identify with the following but I find that when i'm just doodling absent-mindedly, characters come out not only having male characteristics but specifically looking somewhat like me. My awareness of this and conscious attempts to combat it probably led me to arrive at what i thought would be a universally recognisable, and therefore stereotypical, depiction of "femaleness". Which is what Anna and Bengali are talking about - rather than getting hung up on all this, treating her as a *person* with individual characteristics would lead to more engaging results all round. I'd say that with Nelson's work, for example, there's a greater sense of the character existing outside of any particular depiction of her, and less worrying about making her "pretty" in each panel.

In real life we move away from stereotypical understandings of people who are "other" through interaction with them... is there a parallel to be drawn? Even something as simple as "it'll get better with better with practice"...

*I hope this doesn't come across as a defence

Goodness Gracious Meme

16:02 / 05.09.03

not to me, 'sdead interesting.

Our Lady of The Two Towers

14:50 / 06.09.03

It'll be interesting to see what happens now that Jenny is known of outside of Barbelith and some related blogs.

19:31 / 09.09.03

The great Jenny and gender debate.

I still think this has less to do with gender and more to do with character development. In strips where character development/interaction is comparatively weak, it tends to be weak across the board on both male and female characters, for example in the late shift Jenny is the only character present and the plot is very simple – but then its also a single page strip. My Bloody Valentine has a similar problem in that each of the snaps into different jenny lives is very short and offers very little room for more than the most perfunctory character interaction. Conversely in Name’s not down, there is plenty of character interaction but virtually no story – Jenny and friends going clubbing.

Don't get me won't i'm not trying to dismiss any jenny stories, i just think some are more character based and others are ideas based.

So yeah, since in the strips anna omits characterisation is weaker in both male and female characters I have difficulty seeing this as much of a problem of gender portrayal.

13:54 / 10.09.03

I have had a ruddy great idea for a Shifter story scenario (not so much for the story itself), those of you familiar with my predilections should be able to guess the general idea. Might offer a way into a character-driven story, but no doubt I shall never get round to it...

I am still working on Sax's story, sloooowly (sorry Sax). I dare say we shall see whether my version is different in a genderish way, though it seems unlikely (so far she is closer to Nelson's, but in a sort of BiP way...).

14:04 / 10.09.03

If I recall correctly (it's centuries since I wrote it (only joking, Kit-Cat)) there's a whacking great gender issue in the middle of The Death of Jenny Everywhere, which I've handled with my usual cack-handed aplomb.

Goodness Gracious Meme

21:22 / 10.09.03

"in a sort of BiP way"

you're the second person to reference me in relation to JE. Or her in relation to me. err...

05:59 / 11.09.03

When I sent KCC my script she did say I'd managed to write Jenny "a bit like BiP" which is strange considering we've never met.

00:05 / 12.09.03

An interesting side issue to the jenny and gender debate is porn.

Jenny can be used by anyone, to do anything. Anything. Doesn't matter if you think it's 'true to her character' or not.

so what do people think of this?

13:19 / 12.09.03

I think that would be really sucky but there is no 'true to her character' with Jenny as she may very well be a porn star in an alternate reality.

Tryphena Absent

13:50 / 12.09.03

I still think this has less to do with gender and more to do with character development

While I'm inclined to agree with you I still find that the scripts with weaker characterisation seem to fixate more on the gender of Jenny Everywhere. In Late Shift Jenny examines her hair, sticks in a female generational reference and she works a checkout girl. These things don't necessarily seem to be absolutely female but let's face it- a male character would have referenced his father and probably had a more masculine job.

Weak characterisation almost always ties in with gender cliches. You want Jenny to be an everyday working class girl- great- make her a probation assistant or a gardner. Just because she's normal doesn't mean she has to be unoriginal.

Jenny can be used by anyone, to do anything. Anything. Doesn't matter if you think it's 'true to her character' or not.

Damn right. There is no truth to her character really... we have to reduce Jenny down to our own preferences. Some we're going to like and some we're going to hate. I'd quite like Jenny to be a porn star but that really is walking on dodgy ground... if you're going to write a sscript like that you have to counterbalance it. Who wants to hear another story of a down and out stripping off her clothes? The only thing that should be asked of people writing Jenny is that they write their own story rather than repeating or copying someone else's.

14:15 / 12.09.03

Have you considered writing a Jenny story, Anna? It sounds like you'd enjoy it and I'd love to read it.

Ok, back to the serious discussion.

Tryphena Absent

14:58 / 12.09.03

I'd quite like to give Jenny siblings and ghosts actually but I'm not sure that I'd get the pacing right. That seems to be the most difficult thing with this kind of writing... the visualisation of the work. I need to read some scripts to see how everyone else has done it, I've looked at one (which I really enjoyed reading) but I think there's such a shortage of artists at the moment that I'm a little wary of getting dug in.

20:31 / 12.09.03

Is this the part where I sigh wearily and longingly?

Yes. It is.

sigh.

21:52 / 12.09.03

While I'm inclined to agree with you I still find that the scripts with weaker characterisation seem to fixate more on the gender of Jenny Everywhere. In Late Shift Jenny examines her hair, sticks in a female generational reference and she works a checkout girl. These things don't necessarily seem to be absolutely female but let's face it- a male character would have referenced his father and probably had a more masculine job.

Actually no - the check out thing was more to tie into late night queuing. I was also attemptig to give jenny an existence that was the opposite of the hyper cool- work free existence that we have seen in other strips. To give her an original job would have detracted from the point i wanted to make about jenny as a mundane character, with a mundane average and, if you will, unoriginal job that she has to do to bring in money - like everyone else.

On the generational thing, I now wish I'd cast her as the missing Lindenburgh baby, (the baby wasn't kidnapped - it shifted) but of course, Lindenburgh baby was male. (as for the hair - its envy on my part, pure and simple.)

Damn right. There is no truth to her character really... we have to reduce Jenny down to our own preferences. Some we're going to like and some we're going to hate. I'd quite like Jenny to be a porn star but that really is walking on dodgy ground... if you're going to write a sscript like that you have to counterbalance it. Who wants to hear another story of a down and out stripping off her clothes? The only thing that should be asked of people writing Jenny is that they write their own story rather than repeating or copying someone else's.

I disagree with you about reducing jenny to our (presumablely the writer's) preferences. I think it entirely comes down to the kind of story being told (which i suppose can always be read as the author's preferences). Depending on the story, Jenny may well need to do stuff that the writer doesn't agree with - I think this comes down to seeing Jenny as hero. She isn't necessarily. Sometimes she is. But since she is EVERYWHERE sometimes she isn't. Sometimes she's Servelan wiping out the the rebels cos she think's she's right. And sometimes she's a terrorist, and it would be wrong to assume just cos jenny believe's in something it is automatically so.

Tryphena Absent

22:13 / 12.09.03

I disagree with you about reducing jenny to our (presumably the writer's) preferences. I think it entirely comes down to the kind of story being told (which i suppose can always be read as the author's preferences.

Hmm... I think I mean our preferences as creators or readers. Really I'm trying to say that we tend to be subjective in relation to the stories we like. People often take style above content so when I say 'reducing it down' I don't necessarily mean that just because my Jenny wouldn't do a particular thing I'll dislike another Jenny who does, more that I will always prefer the way some Jenny's behave (ambiguous Jenny's who allow little moral absolute in storyline). Of course Jenny should do things the writer doesn't agree with... but here I feel gender rears its head because women and men wrt what they may properly do... well, it's a big difference. If a man is writing Jenny will he understand the social implications of everything she does?

Btw- Jenny Everywhere= Lord Lucan anyone??

06:30 / 15.09.03

No, the beard wouldn't suit. But possibly Amelia Earhart.

08:04 / 15.09.03

no, if you look back at the late shift Amy Earheart is clearly Jenny's mom...

but still should should have been a sex changed lindenburgh baby...

14:04 / 15.09.03

/offtopic

Anyone wants some photoreferences for Jenny go here - Amelia's a bit thin for Jenny but some great white leather flying helmet action!

offtopic/

19:58 / 16.09.03

I was talking to impulsivelad about this thread and said:

"my post may have made it seem like I'm more worried about that issue than I am, it was more like I was just acknowledging something that irritates me about my work which happened to touch on what was being discussed."

so when he replied

"Yeah, you post did kinda seem like you were obssesing on gender everytime you pick up a pencil, heh"

I thought I'd post the above. you know, just for clarification.

13:33 / 14.10.03

Anna de L said: I suppose the one thing I don't like about My Bloody Valentine is that Jenny is presented as an exclusively heterosexual and extremely feminine young woman. If Jenny Everywhere is indeed the Shifter than perhaps she'd have more variation in her relationships- where's Jenny the top? Where's the Jenny who walks over her man? Where's Jenny the lesbian or the Jenny who prefers to be completely alone?

Well, she does have a relationship with a bug-eyed tentacled alien of indeterminate gender...

Tryphena Absent

13:56 / 14.10.03

Well that's one!

I hope you'll forgive me though if I say that her alien relationship seems more novel in the context of the story than it would have if she'd gone out with a person who was slightly outside of a heterosexual narrative.

14:23 / 14.10.03

I'm just poor uneducated northern scum who don't understand these things, though. *Sigh*.

But, point taken. It was one I actually made myself just before MBV appeared - I said in another thread that it had occurred to me after writing that the story wasn't as politically correct as it could have been.

To which, if I recall correctly, Flyboy said upon reading it: "Don't be a daft twat." Although I may not be quoting him accurately there.

14:31 / 14.10.03

>> Well that's one! I hope you'll forgive me though if I say that her alien relationship seems more novel in the context of the story than it would have if she'd gone out with a person who was slightly outside of a heterosexual narrative.

Well, there are only about 5 Jenny stories at present, Anna - and Imp's new gender-bending (literally) Jenny story shows that Jenny's open-minded to such things...

and Jenny can be anything you write her to be, politically correct, sexually enlightened, whatever. As someone said above in this thread:

"Jenny can be used by anyone, to do anything. Anything. Doesn't matter if you think it's 'true to her character' or not."

So write your own Jenny story and that's the best way to make your mark/contribution to the character, bottom line. Jenny is always welcoming to new writers & artists...

14:52 / 14.10.03

This topic is a *deadly* intersection between my two favorite topics, and I mean deadly in a good way --one being art & how it's created; and two being gender. Reminds me a bit of the Women In Refrigerators debate. Bnd I have been messing around all morning & really must get to work... aargh...

...I guess I will just say, for now, that I think that you could say that "gender-positive" (whatever that means) portrayals of women (or indeed, men) don't tend to appear in mainstream comics because of marketing concerns. But the Shifter project doesn't have this, say, mainstream editorial agenda. So everyone can create according to their own conscience, or unconscious (which is how I believe art is created).

On the one hand, it's going to be interesting to see how the artists can mediate their own vision. I should post some pics from How To Draw Comics The Marvel Way; there's a pedagogy, definitely, for how to draw women --their size in relation to men, for example.

On the other hand, I'm wondering how to attract creators who "naturally" have a different vision --e.g., someone who could draw a Hothead Paisan Jenny Everywhere.

16:39 / 14.10.03

slightly off-topic questions:

What does "hothead" mean, aside from the colloquialism of one with a short temper?

And what's the Women In Refrigerators debate? Was that about Kyle Rayner's girlfriend being killed and her body stuffed in a refrigerator by a psycho villian who wanted to hurt those close to him? (fanboy here)

16:53 / 14.10.03

Hothead Paisan, Homicidal Lesbian Terrorist.

Women in Refrigerators.

19:31 / 14.10.03

I want to mention that I had a lot of trouble getting an artist to draw this story simply because it had two boys kissing (even though techinally one of the boys was really a girl) this pissed me off to no end. I mean, tell me my story is shit and you don't want to waste your time... but don't fucking tell me you'd love to draw it except for one stupid panel! grrr!

I'd just like to thank Andres for not being such a dick

21:22 / 14.10.03

See, my favorite part from that Women In Refrigerators debate was something that Rachel Pollack said:

Writers ...write much more from their unconsciouses than people realize. You think of something that seems really cool, and deep, and makes you want to rush to your keyboard, and you don't stop to look at just what it's saying, or where it might come from in yourself.

And as an artist, I think that there is almost no other way to write, or draw. I think it's difficult, and damaging, to go against your unconscious when you're making art.

But I'm also fascinated by the forces that have shaped, and continue to shape, our unconsciouses. And I do think that one can gently reshape one's own unconscious, or "raise" one's consciousness.

So to me, the Jenny project rests right in the crux of these two things.