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Underground > Switchboard >

"Britain on brink of 'Big Brother' ID card"

  
 
Cavatina
21:39 / 06.02.02
I was shocked to read today (in an Oz newspaper) about the proposal by the British Govt. to introduce identity smart cards:

quote:'Mr Blunkett said the credit card-sized pass, which would cost $3 billion to implement, would be called an "entitlement card".
It would carry data on whether the holder was entitled to state benefits and to use the NHS and education system.
The card would be based on "biometric" technology, which meant it would bear the holder's fingerprints and possibly a scan of the iris.
The system could become law as early as next year.'

Australians managed to dodge a national identity card ('the Australia Card') in the 1980s when the then Labor government realised it would be voted out of office if it went ahead with it. What is the reaction of the British public to the proposal?

[ 07-02-2002: Message edited by: Cavatina ]
 
 
The Knowledge +1
21:41 / 06.02.02
I won't do it. It's as simple as that. Fuck them.
 
 
Sauron
21:56 / 06.02.02
I love Knodger. Not only is he not scared of the Scary Haus on the Scary Hill. Even Tony B can't fuck wit' him.

Apparently.

British public's reaction appears to be apathy, verging on support. I think after Sept 11, and the growing 'Refugee Problem'. The public's Raegan-esque attitude to their personal safety is unfortunetely overriding any worries concerning civil liberties/ invasion of privacy.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:01 / 07.02.02
Are you sure you're not confusing 'public' with 'tabloid press' there? Mind you, the apathy bit sounds about right.

I think that there is likely to be considerable opposition in Parliament - can't see many Labour backbenchers being happy with this, and the Tories *should* be against it - and that's really where it's important to have opposition because otherwise the govt will just steamroll everything through.

There have been noises about ID cards before which have never come to anything (I seem to recall the idea being proposed as a response to football hooliganism...) - this sounds scarier and more likely to go through.
 
 
Sauron
10:06 / 07.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Kit-Cat Club:
Are you sure you're not confusing 'public' with 'tabloid press' there?


No, I think you are confusing 'public' with 'minority liberal minded thinkers'. NB when The Mirror, who are anti- Guantanamo Bay, conducted a reader's poll- 94% were for it (camp X-ray).

I think MPs will put up a fight, but the backdrop has changed since Thatcher tried to introduce them as an authoritarian tool shrouded under the guise of a holigan deterent device. The new 'anti- foreigner' spin is much more compelling.

[ 07-02-2002: Message edited by: Sauron ]
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:19 / 07.02.02
Well, you probably have a point there (tho' I don't think that being anti-ID cards necessarily equates with being liberal - it could be opposed from pretty much any point on the political spectrum, with the possible exception of totalitarian/autocratic regimes).

I *don't* know what the public thinks about ID cards, but I'd be surprised if press reports are accurate - put it that way.

Oh, and I agree about the 'anti-foreigners' thing. Grrr.
 
 
Cavatina
10:30 / 07.02.02
Posted by Sauron:

"...the growing 'Refugee Problem'..."

Illegal immigrants?
 
 
Mr Ed
10:30 / 07.02.02
Shouldn't this be in the switchboard?
Well, the main reason they're giving for it working this time round is the technology will work and it'll keep johnny foreigner out of our hair.

It has fucked up before in the past:
Failed benefit card wasted millions

and we still have resrevations on the electronic tagging of criminals See the scottish report and a parilment debate (see HANSARD)

How is a compulsory ID card different from the National Insurance Numbers or a passport? It can't track you down, it's not a credit card, it won't get used everday, it's just a document that you have to produce if the police think your up to somthing dodgy, and I can't it conflictiong with the European Convention Human Rights
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:31 / 07.02.02
The ID card thing seems to me to be a red herring. I carry a driving license, a couple of credit cards, several membership cards, all of which can be used to track my activities. Any competent PI can have my medical, credit, tax, and other records in 24 hours. The government already possesses as much information about me as it could want.

I sometimes think that a total lack of privacy coupled with a lack of laws restricting personal choices would be freer than semi-privacy and lots of farting about trying to hide unsanctioned grey activity.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:58 / 07.02.02
Cavatina - the 'refugee problem' isn't really just illegal immigrants (in fact I',m not really sure how it relates to them, since they're not as visible), but asylum seekers - who are perceived to be coming over in droves, using up a lot of public resources in the process, because of Britain's oh-so-marvellous facilities (which is a joke in itself). The perception seems to be strongest in the South-East, which is where most asylum seekers end up at first, and relates specifically to people coming through the Channel Tunnel. It's magnified by the existence of a large refugee camp at Sangatte, which is right by the French end of the Tunnel and contains a lot of people who want to cross over - and lately they have been storming the entrance to the tunnel...

Again, I'm not sure exactly how the perception relates to reality (I personally doubt that the problem is as great as it is made out to be, but the fact that it is localised obviously makes it seem bad to the locals - if you see what I mean).

Oh, and while govt treatment of asylum seekers is generally adequate it is by no means good - giving them vouchers which they cannot exchange because shops refuse to take them, etc - and the govt is definitely trying to grant asylum to fewer people.

[ 07-02-2002: Message edited by: Kit-Cat Club ]
 
 
Sauron
13:36 / 07.02.02
Refugee Problem =
Killer/ Devil/ Hell's Dogs =
Flesh eating bugs!!!! =

Wapping Wank.

[ 07-02-2002: Message edited by: Sauron ]
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:43 / 07.02.02
That's pretty much what I thought, too...
 
 
The Knowledge +1
14:40 / 07.02.02
ID cards will one day be used to store our 'euros' on - that means no black markey, no drugs, no tax dodging, etc etc.
 
 
Sauron
15:09 / 07.02.02
Change your name back Knodger. It only works when you talk gangsta shiit.

I think I'm with Nick on this one actually- it's not as evil as it appears ... if you can access one. Problems start if you can't. OR if you lost misplaced yours- you may not be able to access amenities if this was the case.
 
 
Fist Fun
16:54 / 07.02.02
What kind of civil liberties would be suppressed. Examples?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
07:26 / 08.02.02
Well, it was a bit of a surprise as Blunkett originally said he didn't think there was any point to ID Cards, so I wonder who changed his mind for him. I am seeing it as a foot in the door, we're going to have cards but not be required to carry them around... until perhaps 5 years down the line where whoever's in the Home Office suddenly thinks its a good idea?

And why do we need to have a card that tells us that we're entitled to be treated on the National Health? Bet they won't allow an M to be turned to an F either (or vice versa), or a N?
 
 
Fist Fun
08:06 / 08.02.02
A foot in the door to what? Where do you think this could lead?
 
 
tSuibhne
12:41 / 08.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Buk:
A foot in the door to what? Where do you think this could lead?

Just throwing out how similiar technology has been used.

Replace money - A lot of colleges in the US use this. Basically a student puts a certain amount of money on their card (kind of like a check card) and then can use it at soda/snack machines, dining hall, bookstore, etc.
See post above about elemination of the black market.

GPS enabled - Some companies are already using badges (little plastic photo IDs that you wear around your neck) to track where employees are in a building, or if they're in the building.
I think people can make up their own reasons for not liking this.

Centralizing Information - Mr. Ed brought up how all kinds of information is already available to any PI who knows how to find it. If you look though, they generally charge a fair amount for the process, because it involves having to deal with different agencies and companies. It also involves knowing HOW to do it. The fear is that by centralizing the data, you remove those safe guards (as week as they are) and make it much more simple. Simple for say, your boss to check your credit record on a whim. Simple for say a script kiddie to fuck things up.

And then there's all the shit that hasn't made it to market yet. If people are interested, I'll ask our biometrics guy here what the plans for smart cards seem to be.
 
 
Fra Dolcino
13:43 / 08.02.02
It has to be asked, why? It may not cost the Government £3 billion, due to the offset of running the current driving licence and NI cards, which cost around £40-60 Million each, but will it prevent anything that it is meant to? I can't see it stopping determined fraudsters, terrorists, illegal immigrants, or any other bunch of 'target categories' that the Govt. always cites. Germany has ID cards and still has the same problems as us.

All they become then is a 'poor card': The better off will not require state health, benefits, etc, and will merely lead t stigmatise the use of the card. This will be worsened if financial information and criminal records are added to the info on the cards.

And then it serves to further alienate asylum seekers/refugees who yet to have a card. These people are not criminals, despite media insistence. Why not save money on ID cards for them and just make them wear clothes with 'foreigner' painted on it?


What information will go on the card? And when one is in place, won't it be simple to keep adding to a 'biometric' smart card, a few more bits and bobs? Religion? DNA? Fingerprints? Medical history (impotant for health benefits/insurance/applying for a job). It just allows more grounds for discrimination.

It could be argued that currently we have most information on cards anyway, but the information from your bank/NI card/library card/etc are (supposedly) protected from being passed on by the Data protection acts, and certainly aren't contained in one database (which also begs the question how this all encompassing database will be secured, and the consequences of this being breached/virused)

Will cards result in more police powers? Surely a widening of powers to a force that is 'institutionally racist' (OK, that was the Met, but they do police around 7% of the UK's population) is undesirable, but without any powers to inspect ID cards, it kinda reduces one of the fundaments of having them. The last time ID cards were in Britain, Churchill abandoned them after a report found that relations between police and the public were harmed by them (I can link an article and the High court ruling condemning them if anyone wants it)

See Privacy International report


Confusion as to the aims of ID cards is being cloaked by the 'terrorism' fear of the public, that Blunkett insists on playing to get this through.

[ 08-02-2002: Message edited by: Fra Dolcino ]
 
 
Spatula Clarke
13:54 / 08.02.02
On a related note, has anyone else heard anything about plans to introduce retinal scanners into airports? Surely that would only work with a national database of retinal scans?
 
 
Fra Dolcino
13:58 / 08.02.02
If they didn't have a retinal database, they soon would introducing them at airports/cash machines, etc.

I spoke to some expert at Barclays bank card securities once, and the reason he gave for banks not introducing fingerprints/retinal scans on cashcards was that people would be getting their eyes/fingers cut out when they were robbed and the banks didn't want to be lumbered with that responsibility.
 
 
tSuibhne
14:09 / 08.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Fra Dolcino:
I spoke to some expert at Barclays bank card securities once, and the reason he gave for banks not introducing fingerprints/retinal scans on cashcards was that people would be getting their eyes/fingers cut out when they were robbed and the banks didn't want to be lumbered with that responsibility.

Or it was becuase the technology has only recently started to get to a level where it's feasable. With the old technology there were all kinds of problems.

Got the flu, pink eye, a black eye, etc? Retinal scan wouldn't work.

Do pottery in your spare time? Your fingerprints wouldn't work (working with pottery rubs off a good bit of your fingerprints, kinda like sandblasting your fingers)

I beleave these things have been worked out though.
 
  
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