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The secularists in black robes

 
 
Hieronymus
04:54 / 28.08.03
Be warned. It's a bit late and my head isn't quite completely in this.

So I'm reading this ABC News article about Judge Moore and the 10 Commandments monument fiasco in Alabama and while personally I feel a sense of relief that the monument's been moved, I can't help feeling that there's soon to be some kind of 'payback' or 'win' from the literalist Christian Right and I'm wondering if the statements made in that article make it clear that there's a true belief and consensus from Christians that their rights are being taken away.

I'm not overjoyed personally that the seperation of Church and State had to be and was eventually protected nor am I jumping up and down, gloating that people like Judge Moore and his supporters got 'what's theirs'. I feel on some level there's something I can do, even on just an individual level, to make it clear to fundamentalist Christians that I do not want to trample on their faith by holding to the Constitution. But I honestly don't know what to say or do to make that clear. I just don't see the logic of endorsing any one religion in the state's capacity and, more importantly, I fail to understand how that's percieved by the Religious Right as an out-and-out attack upon their world, as part of a grand conspiracy by atheist officials to wipe Christianity off the face of the earth. Can someone lend an answer?

Ugh. I am tired.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:25 / 28.08.03
The separation of Church and State is only important if you don't believe with a burning passion that one particular religion - and hence worldview and moral code - is right in every particular.

So, if you're a Christian fundamentalist, and you hate the idea of gay marriage, and someone tells you that a law banning it is unconstitutional, all that says to you is that there are aspects of the Constitution which fly in the face of the Law of God, as revealed by the Bible, which is the unimpeachable Word of God and is not subject to discussion.

That there are varying translations and interpretations of the Bible does not enter the conversation either, because you read the Bible in the light of the guidance of the Holy Spirit - i.e. you only hold your opinion because that's the opinion God wants you to hold, and because God is a just and loving God, you cannot possibly be misled. Since God is omnipotent, there is no possibility of error.

Anything which limits the power of the Christian right to legislate against the things of which they (in the name of God) disapprove is a direct attack upon God's Law.

See?
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:50 / 28.08.03
Well put, Sam.

I've been reading a little about this and I almost see the Christian fundamentalist point of view. Since they don't care, and probably oppose, the separation of church and state and the constitutionally enshrined religious tolerance, all they see is that they are in the majority and the laws of the land are designed to frustrate their tyranny. Sorry, I mean "love".

Is this a case where there is a consensus amongst the eilte to preserve a tradition that the majority are against? Like the often cited abolition of capital punishment in the UK?
 
 
illmatic
12:58 / 28.08.03
It's interesting to me where Bush sits in all this. i've read some commentators who've said that now he's in power. he won't be throwing as many sops to the relgious right ie. anti-abortion legislation etc. He seems pretty distant from this one, while you can be sure that Clinton would've been held near-enough personally responsible.

And wasn't this whole thing an explict test of constitutional seperation by Moore right from the beginning? Didn't he have "Roy's Rock" delivered in the dead of night without telling any of his fellow judges? It seems the whole thing has been designed to test this issue and push against the church/state boundary.
 
 
Hieronymus
13:54 / 28.08.03
But it would seem that the fringe groups, who I've always believed were the mouthpieces of a zealous minority, are in fact speaking from the point of view of the majority of average Americans. The majority of Americans do not want gay marriages. And in both an ABC News poll and a CNN poll make it clear that at least 2/3rds if not a inch or two more of the people do truly think that the 10 Commandments deserve to put on public display in courts. Despite its constitutional violations.

So I don't think it's simply a matter of the elite pushing an issue, Lurid. People endorse these guys with their votes and their feet and their support.
 
 
illmatic
14:01 / 28.08.03
I think Lurid was agreeing with you actually - at least that's how I read his post - the "elite" being the federal goverment. Perhaps Moore pushed the issue knowing it would tap such a vein of popular support. I think the parallel with capital punishment in this country is very apt, but I can't think of anything else to say expect "scary".
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:18 / 28.08.03
Yeah, sorry for being unclear. I meant that the "tradition" being preserved was the separation of church and state.

Interesting to hear from you, Discursive Mass, that you feel that there really is popular support for having the Ten Commandments in a courthouse. Do others from the US agree with this assessment of public opinion?

Whats also interesting is that I have read - I can't vouch for the reliability of the source and it was a late night news trawling session, so correct me if I'm wrong - I have read that Moore has refused to have other religious symbols to be displayed alongside the Ten Commandments. He has also, according to some accusations, preferred Christian values on homosexuality over strictly legal guidelines in delivering some judgements. Anyone care to comment?
 
 
pachinko droog
15:48 / 28.08.03
None of this surprises me in the least. Although the US seems to flip/flop back and forth between extremes of permissiveness and conservatism, its actually more of a media-induced facade, like most things concerning America.

From what I've experienced thus far, this country is by and large, very conservative and very religious and has always been that way. There are pockets of liberalism/tolerance/permissiveness, but by and large these areas are in major cities that have been undergoing gentrification for some time, as well as in the college towns.

The Christian Right have always been well, ambitious to say the least. They want to be in charge of this country, period. They "know best". You can argue with them until you suffer from oxygen depletion, it doesn't matter. They "know" they're right. Which makes them rather a scary lot to deal with. They want an end to the separation of church and state. They want mandatory school prayer. They think abortion is murder. They think homosexuality is a sin. They want to tell us all what we can and cannot watch, read, listen to or think about. They want total and absolute control over every aspect of American life. And of course, they want us all to convert to their brand of religion.

Obviously, this is nothing new. They've been espousing these views for quite some time now. Except now something has changed. They've gotten one of their own into the White House. Hence the big agenda. Its not a Born Again backlash, its a resurgence. They've got plans for us, so to speak. Not the dreaded Apocalypse (that would be bad for business), but rather a continual and concerted effort at chipping away, bit by bit, all those laws that stand in the way of their eventual objective, cited above. If they tried to do this in one fall swoop, red flags and alarms would be going off all over the place. Hence the pick and chisel approach. Or the "boiling frog" analogy if you prefer.
 
 
SMS
02:22 / 29.08.03
I think the Christian right perceive a kind of persecution or a general disdain for them because of something very real.

First off, when we speak of Christian and Muslim fundamentalism together, the conservatives tend to hear something they think is incredibly unfair. On the one hand, you have people trying to pass laws teaching creationism in schools, standing on street corners handing out bibles, maybe even making claims that non-Christians will not find salvation. On the other hand, you have people blowing themselves up, crashing planes into buildings, and trying to bring down the states of Israel (primarily) and the United States (secondarily). Now, most will acknowledge that terrible things have been done in the name of Christianity in the past, but it seems to be considerably less common today. It's important to look at this from the perspective of the Christian right. They are being associated with murderers.

Secondly, it is impossible for any government anywhere to be completely neutral to religion. The law has to be based on ideas taken to be true, and if those ideas conflict with that of some religion, then the government has essentially taken a religious position. There are some people who believe that God does not want them to seek medical care when they are ill. They are allowed to do this, but there is no religious exemption for them when they wish to deny basic medical care to their children. The reason for this is that their belief is essentialy untrue. The public schools are teaching our children every year that human beings evolved from species of primates. The government has taken a position on the truth of both these religious ideas; the ideas will be tolerated but contradictory ideas will be promoted.

This bias is unavoidable. Our best efforts to be fair involve appealing to secularism: remove the nativity scenes, the ten commandments monument, the words "in God we trust," and so on. The problem with the appeal to secularism is that the one set of ideas it never contradicts is the atheistic set. We do not intend for the government to take the position of atheism any more than we want it to take the position of theism, but, in some sense, it has to do one or the other. The religious left seems comfortable with this, but the religious right does not, and I understand.

Thirdly, many people do ridicule the religious right as ignorant buffoons who want simply want to control the way other people think. Aside from the hostility in this accusation, there is also a hypocrisy in it. To call the most important belief in a person's life buffonery is an effort to control the way xe thinks. They are told that to oppose abortion is to oppose women, which seems odd to them because half of the aborted fetuses are, in fact, female. They are told that they must help promote homosexual marriage or else they will be regarded as bigots.

Now, of course there are arguments for homosexual marriage that do not involve an appeal to namecalling. There are arguments for abortion that do not appeal to namecalling. There are arguments against most of the positions of the Christian right. And people on both sides have their share of this kind of thing. And I don't mean to support the religious right. I'm probably a moderate about most things.

I don't disagree with most of the things said in this thread so far either. The conspiracy to boil the frog slowly might be just the way politics works, but it is probably true and it is probably bad.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:16 / 29.08.03
SMS: Now, most will acknowledge that terrible things have been done in the name of Christianity in the past, but it seems to be considerably less common today.

1, 2... many. And that's just the cheap shot. Getting a little more complicated, you can look at Chechnya, Ingushetia, and great swathes of Africa for out-and-out Christian-based religious wars - not to mention:

Some of the most extreme elements in the religious right have continued to advocate violence against gays and lesbians, including Reverend Fred Phelps, who maintains a website at www.godhatesfags.com. Bishop Holloway notes that one Anglican Bishop at the Lambeth Conference stated that there were no homosexuals in Africa, and those that they found, they stoned. (Egale/Ontario Superior Court)

It's not that they're being associated with murder. It's that they're being associated with murder that they don't approve of.
 
 
bjacques
08:51 / 29.08.03
Most public hostility toward and ridicule of Christian fundamentalists derives from the latter's bad manners in public, such as publicly insulting other people's beliefs while trying to get the law to enforce their own. As a devout Subgenius, I think Christianity, Islam and Judaism are so much tripe, but I don't go around picking fights; and in fact, if they only pay $30, they can even believe silly superstitions involving volcanoes, spectral soul parasites and 75 million year old space empires. By the way, the CoSG actually pays its taxes; the Fundies not only dodge taxes, but under Bush's "faith-based initiatives," they hope to collect them too. Except for a few abortion clinic bombings and assassinations, Fundies are less violent than their Muslim brethren, but they're still pretty rude.

The government must avoid promoting religion or else must promote all of them. Christians aren't forced to "promote" homosexual marriage; they just can't legally prevent them. Huge difference. The theory of evolution is preferred in biology classes in reputable schools because it's the best at explaining how we got here, it was arrived at *after* gathering of evidence and anyone is free to try to knock it down. None of these is true of Creationism, which is not science. Do we have to learn Eskimo Creationism? Yoruba? Of the Ten Commandments, only about half of them are what you could call social rules; the rest are sectarian chest thumping.

The US government doesn't "promote" atheism, except by accident; it simply doesn't concern itself one way or the other. That isn't oppression of Christians--it's privilege denied. There are few Christian holdovers, a Congressional chaplain. Fine, but that doesn't mean we need more of the same. One could also argue that, since the American Atheists (or their successors) want the chaplain's office abolished but that won't happen, the government doesn't promote atheism either.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:47 / 29.08.03
Except for a few abortion clinic bombings and assassinations, Fundies are less violent than their Muslim brethren, but they're still pretty rude.

You can, of course, prove this, with numbers and other evidence, otherwise you wouldn't say something which was potentially so fraught with prejudice.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:11 / 29.08.03
Pushing for laws to teach Creationism to kids that may not be Christian seems pretty rude to me.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:03 / 29.08.03
Secondly, it is impossible for any government anywhere to be completely neutral to religion. The law has to be based on ideas taken to be true, and if those ideas conflict with that of some religion, then the government has essentially taken a religious position. - SMS

I think this is valid only inasmuch as it is the point of view of someone who interprets everything religiously. Laws are passed by legislatures on the basis of necessity, rather than morality. Hence "true" is entirely misleading as a criterion for law. Moreover, the idea that one loses a degree of neutrality by agreeing or disagreeing with a religious position is ridiculous. It is only if that religious position is taken to be some kind of gold standard that you would conclude that.

Being neutral with respect to a position does not mean never saying anything to contradict it. A neutral judge will find for and against parties without compromising that neutrality.

The problem with the appeal to secularism is that the one set of ideas it never contradicts is the atheistic set. We do not intend for the government to take the position of atheism any more than we want it to take the position of theism, but, in some sense, it has to do one or the other.

Since atheism doesn't come with an ethical or legal code, it is really quite hard to contradict it in those terms. Are you really saying that any failure to mention theism is atheistic? This idea seems fairly problematic, in my view. Again, it is a position only really makes sense if you take theism as the default position and see any deviation from theism as "biased". I'm not aware of any laws that declare the non-existence of deities, so I just can't see how they could be described as atheist.

Agnostic might make more sense, I suppose, though there is a presumption that law is theological in nature. I mean, you wouldn't call a recipe book atheistic or agnostic, if it failed to observe religious guidelines on permitted food, would you? Hmmm. Maybe you would.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
12:50 / 29.08.03
"A neutral judge..."

A creature which does not, of course, exist. And that is why any sign of religious bias has to be stepped on when it appears in government.
If a judge cannot discipline hirself to avoid faith driven actions, how can xe be relied on to avoid faith-driven thought, and judgement?

"The defendant pleads 'Not Guilty', by reason of not having been smote by God."
"Ah well, fair enough. Case dismissed."

I find it almost funny, actually. The fundamentalists (in thought, not deed, is where this definition applies) seem to be getting into this mess only because they have as much faith in "USA" as they do in "God". If they really are in the majority, they could simply get the constitution changed, right? But that would be Un-American. Boo, hiss!
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:38 / 29.08.03
It's a fascinating test of faiths - strict constructionism vs. Christian Evangelism.
 
 
Hieronymus
15:18 / 29.08.03
Obviously, this is nothing new. They've been espousing these views for quite some time now. Except now something has changed. They've gotten one of their own into the White House. Hence the big agenda. Its not a Born Again backlash, its a resurgence. They've got plans for us, so to speak. Not the dreaded Apocalypse (that would be bad for business), but rather a continual and concerted effort at chipping away, bit by bit, all those laws that stand in the way of their eventual objective, cited above. If they tried to do this in one fall swoop, red flags and alarms would be going off all over the place. Hence the pick and chisel approach. Or the "boiling frog" analogy if you prefer.

This might require another thread, but how exhausting is that kind of a worldview approach? To remake the world in your religious view/ perceptions in an absolute and non-negotiable way? Can that even be done?
 
 
pachinko droog
16:28 / 29.08.03
I'm not sure if it can be done per se, but the Born Agains get props for trying. They're very well organized, that much can be said.

I just re-read the Howard Bloom interview from "Disinformation: The Interviews", and in his shpiel regarding the Global Brain of bacteria vs. humanity, he indicated quite strongly that such a weltanschaung is in the end, detrimental to our survival as a species. Given the Born Again stance on such things as stem cell research, cloning, evolution vs. creationism, and the alliance between the religious right and the political right--especially with regards to the enviroment--it becomes clear that he is not just taking the big picture panoramic view of things as they are, but as they could be.

Bringing it back down to the here and now, it can be summed up that using religious arguments to impede scientific progress and education is not only stupid, it is dangerous in the extreme. The religious right has repeatedly used what I call the "back door" approach to get their agenda fulfilled, especially with regards to impeding science. They use moral arguments to try and stop stem cell research, for instance, using the same logic that they apply to abortion.

Given what is going on in the world today, from global warming and strange weather to odd new diseases cropping up and the ever present threat of bioterrorism, I think it behooves us to restrain the pitbull of religious extremism when it comes to scientific progress. The last thing we need to be doing is putting blinders on, especially when one considers that, according to Bloom at any rate, we are well overdue for a modern Black Plague that could wipe out 2-3 billion.

That being said, I do think that science needs a moral compass, but not one that is imposed from "on high" as it were. It should come from within the scientific community itself. Physicians for Social Responsibilty, there's a perfect example.
 
 
SMS
16:49 / 29.08.03
Again, it is a position only really makes sense if you take theism as the default position and see any deviation from theism as "biased".

I take the view that any position is biased, and that bias is therefore unavoidable.
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:11 / 29.08.03
You mean that if you aren't promoting Christianity, you are opposing it? You are either with us or against us?
 
 
SMS
20:36 / 29.08.03
SMS: Now, most will acknowledge that terrible things have been done in the name of Christianity in the past, but it seems to be considerably less common today.

Sam Vega (with links omitted): 1, 2... many. And that's just the cheap shot. Getting a little more complicated, you can look at Chechnya, Ingushetia, and great swathes of Africa for out-and-out Christian-based religious wars - not to mention:

Some of the most extreme elements in the religious right have continued to advocate violence against gays and lesbians, including Reverend Fred Phelps, who maintains a website at www.godhatesfags.com. Bishop Holloway notes that one Anglican Bishop at the Lambeth Conference stated that there were no homosexuals in Africa, and those that they found, they stoned. (Egale/Ontario Superior Court)

It's not that they're being associated with murder. It's that they're being associated with murder that they don't approve of.


No, that wasn't a cheap shot. But the only point I meant to make was that it seems like the major attrocities committed in the name of Christianity are considerably less common today. Whether or not this is a fact is another matter. I was trying to address the part of the initial post that said:
I feel on some level there's something I can do, even on just an individual level, to make it clear to fundamentalist Christians that I do not want to trample on their faith by holding to the Constitution. But I honestly don't know what to say or do to make that clear...

To Lurid's question:You mean that if you aren't promoting Christianity, you are opposing it? You are either with us or against us?

No, I didn't say that. What I am saying is that there are always biases one way or another, no matter how much you try to stay neutral. There are degrees of this, of course, which is why trying to stay neutral is worth the effort, but total success is impossible. Yes, the liberal reason for passing laws is out of necessity, but what is determined as necessary is based on truth.
 
 
Ria
22:28 / 29.08.03
the Iraq and Aghanistan wars may count as christian fundamentalist violence if you chose.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
07:21 / 30.08.03
Yup. I'm sure I remember the word "crusade" being used...
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
09:15 / 30.08.03
SMatthew: "No, that wasn't a cheap shot. But the only point I meant to make was that it seems like the major attrocities committed in the name of Christianity are considerably less common today. Whether or not this is a fact is another matter"

And other faiths' fundamentalists are still happily eating babies for kicks? Sorry, I just don't follow your argument any more. Sure, the really obvious violence these days involves those funny little guys with beards, and is therefore automatically linked to faith, even when most of the acts (all of you original examples, for one) are not driven by faith. Israel is about land, 9/11 is about US political interference. Certainly, faith is heavily interwoven with all the other little causes that make this stuff so complicated to resolve, but it is not the central thread. If you could take out the religion, people would still be fighting, just not as devotedly.

You asked us to feel some sympathy for the Christian Heavy Brigade, because the term 'fundamentalist' seems to associate them with groups of people who seem to be irrationally violent? Doesn't that just suggest a lack of understanding on the fundies' side? As does this whole sideshow? A judge who put choice excerpt from the Koran in his courthouse would suffer the same 'persecution'.
 
 
bjacques
15:11 / 30.08.03
SVIP, I did leave out the Sudanese Christian rebels, who might even the balance of terror with their tactics. Likewise, if the crusade is in effect, the Coalition have massively shifted it back to the Christian side. But honestly, if you're talking about unapologetic and indiscriminate murder or mayhem out of religious bigotry, Muslims and Hindus are probably neck and neck, with Christians being a distant third.

As for the latter part of the statement, I can prove Christian fundie rudeness on a graph, as the late Bill Hicks liked to say. Just look at their voting and polling figures.

The government doesn't have to be totally neutral--it only has to try to be. Religious regard only extends to not interfering with worship or lack thereof, as long as nobody's civil rights are violated. If that's not enough regard, too bad. Murderous Mexican drug cults aren't allowed to sacrifice college boys to bewitch the cops either, and I can't go around smiting pinks and glorps, as J.R. "Bob" Dobbs demands. Nor can Scientologists break into IRS offices. Conversely, fundamentalists, Christian or otherwise, don't have to like homosexuality or teenage girls (or boys) showing off their navels, but they aren't allowed to forcibly stop it. If that's oppression, they can move to a more godly country like Saudi Arabia.

90% of Americans believing in God doesn't make us an officially Christian country. Almost as many of us believe in space aliens, but we're not legalizing anal probes anytime soon.
(why is it that the aliens into clinical sodomy always land in America...? Can't we get the cat-suited space babes that land in Brazil?)
 
 
SMS
16:03 / 30.08.03
I think it is important to try to understand, in a sympathetic way, the views and feelings of other people. In fact, I had initially thought that was part of the purpose of this thread.

I am far from being a part of the Christian right, or the born-again Christians, or the Christian Heavy Brigade(CHB), so these aren't my feelings. I don't feel threatened when I hear a comparison between Muslim and Christian fundamentalists, but I have spent the last year casually studying the political right in an effort to try to understand them. Those things I mentioned are some of the things I've picked up.

The reaction to the term fundamentalist should be understood on an emotional level. The CHB doesn't have a coherent position on this, but the underlying feeling is there among some of its members.
 
 
Lurid Archive
21:32 / 30.08.03
I think it is important to try to understand, in a sympathetic way, the views and feelings of other people. -SMS

I completely agree. I assumed, from your comments earlier, that you were trying to exactly that. And though you didn't intend it in that way, I still think that the position you were describing implies that, for those christians, anything short of promoting christianity is equivalent to promoting atheism.

I mean, you say that the government has to take religious positions in passing laws. OK, I don't really accept that, but I will for the sake of argument. You say that removing references to a deity and the trappings of religion amount to the government taking the position of atheism. Again, I don't agree. However, where does that leave a government that doesn't want to take the position of atheism in the eyes of the christian right? Simple. Mention God as the source of "truth" for our laws, put the Ten Commandments on display and so on.

I didn't really think you could have been much clearer.

We do not intend for the government to take the position of atheism any more than we want it to take the position of theism, but, in some sense, it has to do one or the other.

I don't buy that, but the Christian right does. And I think that is why there is a lack of sympathy.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
08:35 / 01.09.03
You say that removing references to a deity and the trappings of religion amount to the government taking the position of atheism.

Ca depend. Should one be defining the position of atheism as "absence of theism" (or perhaps rather, "absence of a theistic position"), or does it imply an "antitheistic" view?

Both are technically valid definitions, but perhaps the "discrimination" claimed by the Christian right is due to a confusion of the two, believing that they are one and the same.

Of course, using that argument, the fact that courts don't show the Koran/Torah/Satanic Bible/whatever is blatant discrimination. However, I wouldn't particularly savour the prospect of explaining that to someone who believes that theirs is the one true religion, which should be taken as the unimpeachable truth, and that those who follow any other religion are tragically (or evilly, even) misguided and will burn in hell for all eternity because of their false beliefs. And, if the poll cited in the article is to be believed, such people constitute nearly two-thirds of the American population. Which I find rather worrying...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:40 / 01.09.03
bjacques - I wasn't challenging your statement about Christian rudeness. I want figures for your claim about Islam and Hinduism being more prone to 'murder and mayhem out of religious bigotry'. I also want to know how far back you're marking the cut-off, and why.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
15:55 / 01.09.03
Jesus, man. Why not just come out and say you think he's full of shit, instead of pussyfooting around?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:50 / 01.09.03
Because I don't know yet whether I think that's the case. You, on the other hand, I only read when I forget to put you on my ignore list.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
20:02 / 03.09.03
Ooooh. You've been letting your claws grow out, little kitten.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
20:26 / 03.09.03
bjacques, now that Jack and I have exchanged another round of pointless hatemail, how do you feel about answering my objections?
 
 
Hieronymus
23:20 / 13.11.03
*Bump*

Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore was removed from office Thursday for refusing to obey a federal court order to move his Ten Commandments monument from the rotunda of the state courthouse.
 
  
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