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[+] ?external / internal entities? [+]

 
 
h3r
20:55 / 27.08.03
The collective consciousness has asked for it....so here it is...
A thread dedicated primarily to the discussion on...(ta-ta.!!)....
.......EXTERNAL versus INTERNAL entities...
( as partially discussed in so many other threads, most recently in the immensly entertaining as well as educational "contact alien" discussion)

We've all heard about 'em, read about 'em, conjured them, etc...
(think about the holy guardian angel, the tibetan "tulpa" , plantlike and insectoid beings encountered during DMT trips,etc)

So what do the experts have to offer?
Are entities which we communicate with and meet during rituals/drug sessions/psychotic episodes or just in plain old "daily reality" part of us and figments of our own creation/imagination or aspects of ourselves? Or are they truly autonmous and selfsufficient ego-aware beings who do NOT require us to conjure them into existence? Do they exist independently from us? Do they have independent and selfcontained agendas?

Let's see where this takes us.....
 
 
h3r
21:00 / 27.08.03
damn..got so excited to forget about the summary ;(
oh well, guess this thread wont be found in future searches by new barbeliths to join many years to come...
so we can REALLY reveal the truth this time, no one later will find whatever our final assessment of the situation will bee...no cryptic encoding necessary....lets hear it....undiluted knowledge please.....
 
 
C.Elseware
21:22 / 27.08.03
I'll make a stand!

I have as my working theory that all magick is internal. There is no supernatural begins. There is no god. Nothing but dear old reality. I think that the most intelligent thing you can encouter is man and that contacting aliens/angels is just getting your brain in a state where you exagerate the internal dialogue, perhaps no longer become an individual.

I stress this is not a deeply held belief. It's the best guess based on my experience and instincts.

This does not mean that it's not helpful to work with them as if they were external, for the purposes of bringing about change & learning.

If your higher self told you to jump of a cliff...
 
 
h3r
23:05 / 27.08.03
Ë¡sèwÃRe, do you belive in the collective subconsciousness / gaia theory? Or rather, do you believe in the possibility of a "real human in reality" being able to access such a collective awareness level?
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
00:27 / 28.08.03
And for my triumphant return to the magick board, I have chosen this board to start on. I don’t know why I was gone, I just needed a break. So, here’s my book on this nonsense.

First, in my opinion everything is interconnected, meaning you are part of the same ‘organism’ as, say, a walrus or a screwdriver. There’s always a bigger fish out there, just as there’s always a smaller fish too. So, for all we know our galaxy might just be an atom to some organism, just as a single blood cell of ours might be a whole universe somewhere. (Scary part is I’ve thought this way sense I was seven)
Now, that leads me to the problem of extradimensional beings, or gods, if you prefer, and their origins. Now, if we assume for a minute that our atoms really are home to an entire omniverse, what happens to that omniverse when it’s home atom is used in nuclear fusion? Do we accidentally viewed as some kind of god when we mess around with quantum mechanics? I’m not questioning the ethics involved with this, I’m just creating a hypothesis.

Now, as to legit extra-terrestrial lifeforms visiting Earth, that’s another question entirely.
 
 
Seth
04:41 / 28.08.03
It's an irrelevant question. Neither stance is provable, and we can each have our own pet theories based on little more than what comforts and affirms our worldview. What's important is how we relate to deities and what the relationship is used for.

I made God(s), God(s) made me. Do we anthropmorphise forces to help our understanding, or do these forces emanate from divine beings? What's the difference in practical terms? As above, so below can easily be reversed to as below, so above - the equation works either way. It all leads back to our relationship with the unknown and the divine.

The question strikes me as a trap, to be honest. Both viewpoints should be held in tension. We perceive with our subjective senses and build our flawed world models from whatever stimuli we receive. The process of working with deities is therefore both internal and external, and it's limiting and counter-productive to reduce it to an either/or choice. It's possibly the least interesting question that can be asked in deity work, and one that has been covered many times in older threads.

Click on the Moderate Thread text to add an abstract.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
05:39 / 28.08.03
I think there is a good reason to assume they are internal at the beginning: if you're overly rational and have difficulty listening to your intuition, it can be helpful to allow yourself to treat your "first thoughts" in response to stimuli during a magic state as meaningful, even though you "know" you're "making it up." (woooooo scare quotes) Starting from the assumption that your own mind-talk is a good source of information can work wonders for the beginner--though you might change your tune when the universe starts grabbing you by the scruff of the neck and saying "Look here."
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:18 / 28.08.03
I second everything set says in hir post above.

I've got a lot of time for the flatland/timeworm theory that spyder's post edges towards. I think its a very effective working metaphor for all sorts of aspects of magic - however any theory of this nature is pretty much impossible to definitively 'prove' one way or another. I think that by getting too hung up on this question, all your likely to accomplish is the conscious obstruction of processes that seem to work at a deeper unconscious and plain mysterious level.

There's loads of fairly recent threads on this already, and I'd be repeating myself if I went into any more detail.
 
 
illmatic
09:14 / 28.08.03
This does seem to have been covered a few times in recent threads – does anybody want to stick in a few links?

So, searching for something new to say on the subject, it occurs to me that we’re not entirely independent “subjects” ourselves ie. self contained independent units acting to a greater or lesser degree on an external world, even though this is how we tend to think of ourselves. Our language reflects this as well ie. we “come into” the world or “face up” to it. If we think of ourselves in this way, the inside/outside dichotomy remains quite clear. However, reflection shows this view of ourselves to be quite false. If we think about it, our sense of self arises to a great degree from this world’s impact on us – from the physical (ie the food we eat, the air we breath, even the ground we tread upon) to the mental (self definition and identity arising from our place in the world, sensory stimuli etc) Our sense of self seems to be more an emergent property, arising from the collision of the internal and external.

Might not any entities encountered also occupy this space – neither entirely interior or exterior, but a property of interaction between us and “something else”?

In practice though, it comes down to expediency with me – while it might be easy to say that an entity is a mask of self if it crops up in dream or whatever, when you start receiving messages or whatever from an external source this becomes a lot more contested. As I’m sure everyone here is thoroughly bored of hearing, my favourite way of doing this is consulting the I Ching. When I receive a hexagram I’ve never received before if I am trying to argue it’s “simply” the result of my subconscious, then I have to allow that my subconscious has precognition or some depth of knowledge greater than I have, to select the correct hexagram. I’ve also got to allow for the possibility of some sort of psychokinesis to allow the subconscious to affect the fall of the dice or coins or whatever. So rather, than attribute such astonishing to an unknown strata of myself, I find it’s “easier” for me, to think of the results as the responsibility of some 3000 year old Chinese spirits. Ultimately though, I suspect the answer (which I’ll never know) is something that transcends both of these explanations.
 
 
h3r
16:56 / 28.08.03
just to clarify... my initial motivation for this thread was NOT to come up with an answer.

but some good comments and discussion has happend within 24hrs, not too shabby.....
To me this is a stimulating topic, because it leads to the understanding of "reality" and one's interaction and existence within it. FUrther exploration into what makes us tick is something that allows for a balanced and happy existence I think. The truth shall set you free....
i relate to most everything having been said so far....

whats intriguing for me is the mentioned scenario:
when the universe starts grabbing you by the scruff of the neck and saying "Look here."

it seems to me that as long as there is a sense of "ego awareness" present, there clearly ARE external entities, the more one transcends the boundaries though an understanding of "one-ness" arises, the borderlines of individually compartmentalized "selves" fade away. Of course even when realzing that we're all one, ther must be a "bigger fish" somehwere that this just realzied one-ness is part of......

hey illmatic, or anybody else, what is a godd introduction book to the I ching, I never really got into it...
 
 
h3r
17:12 / 28.08.03
........and a comment on
Spyder's "legit extra-terrestrial lifeforms visiting Earth, that’s another question entirely. "

a digression:
this is what I think, or rather the definitions I subscribe to:
"Aliens" are physical beings like us humans, basically they are just different humanoid species referred to as aliens rather than humans because they are not common ( note I didnt use "indigenous", since neither are us humans) to planet earth nowadays.
"extraterrestrial" lifeforms on the other hand are only borderline physical they also inhabit "higher" dimensions and exist in both the physical realm and another dimension. Dolphins are an example of an ET species. Us humans have also ET traits (the pineal gland allowing us to exist on other planes) and there a more and more theories surfacing that the human species is about to move ahead in evolution toward becoming a full fledged ET race ( similar to our forefathers the Lyreans ca.70000 yrs ago), thus more and more of us becoming aware of our abilities to phase into astral/hyperspace, and starting to take advantag of more than the currently used5% of our brains....

based on those definitions, ETs (since they can be encountered in hyperspace and astral plane, etc) are not clearly definable as "external" or "ineranl".
but then again, absed on some of the aerlier discussion, even the physical person (watching over my shoulder while a type this right now and trying to get me back to work) next to me can be interpreted as "internal", as a construct of my own private matrix, rather than an independent organism
 
 
Aertho
18:33 / 28.08.03
Personally, I'd be much happier with a world where contemporary culture evolved to influence people to rise to the challenge of understanding each others' communication. People evolving into super-powered psychics is allegorical at best and masturbatory at worst.

Granted, I sincerely believe that as time progresses and culture DOES evolve, more transpersonal awareness and "psychic phenomena" will emerge, but hopefully it will be seen as less TELEpathic, and more EMpathic.
 
 
Sebastian
18:52 / 28.08.03
A synchronicity is an isomorphism between a seemingly internal representation and a seemingly external one.

If you are "thinking" about Joe (internal), and Joe knocks the door (external), there you have it. That is, if you didn't expect Joe to knock.

If you think of turning on the light, and when you flick the switch the light goes on, thats another synchronicity.

Usually, the emphasis is placed on the first type of synchronicity, as it appears to be subjected to greater degree of randomness than the second one. However, we have worked more than hard to eliminate a great deal of randomness from the second, and still the light might significantly not turn on at a given time. And the question here is "synchronic to what?".

Magic is pretty much either directing synchronicities (creating a match between internal and seemingly random external events, like you say "rain" and it rains) and also picking on the synchronicity when a seemingly predictable external event unexpectedly mismatches an internal one.

Oh no... this thread was about entities??
 
 
Aertho
19:21 / 28.08.03
Entities in regards to giving "ghosts", "gods", and "phoenix forces" SOME kind of valid sentience in physical space.

I think he's asking if we acknowledge these things said above as physically real, and therefore acknowledge their own sentient wills. The problem is that there seems to be a mixup in the delivery of the question. I want to know excalty what h3r needs to hear.
 
 
h3r
21:32 / 28.08.03
as stated earlier, i dont need to hear anything specifically. I am not looking for the ultimate truth, solution or answer.
but it sure is interesting to see what everybody has to say. it seems people do have strong opinions, and there lots of posts on this broad topic.
I enjoy agreeing with a post, then another one comes in, and I go "yeah, thats kinda true too!".
so it is a good "breaching experiment" and demonstrates that the way we choose to perceive our reality is ALWAYS exluding certain other valid perspectives. Once any new reality-construct has been defined as a closed system, it will be torn down sooner or later (unless one puts on the blinders and ignores new facts or ideas!)....
Chesed, I do believe that the evolutionary trend towards ET like existence will spawn empathy rather than controlling-ego-mindfuck-tyranny. but I am a utopian

And I'm not specifically concerned with only physical realities as someone suggested. It's more the question of seperate "soul" or"consciousness" , both of which dont necessarily manifest in the physical realm anyways....
 
 
salix lucida
03:20 / 29.08.03
Are entities which we communicate with and meet during rituals/drug sessions/psychotic episodes or just in plain old "daily reality" part of us and figments of our own creation/imagination or aspects of ourselves? Or are they truly autonmous and selfsufficient ego-aware beings who do NOT require us to conjure them into existence?

Yes.

To be less of a smartass, I tend to believe that there do exist such autonomous beings, but most of our metaphysical or dream communications are with bits of our own mind. Mix that with the tentative belief that we-sentient-beings are all just bits of an overmind anyway and it gets even fuzzier, and the distinctions even less relevant.

And to comment on Chesed's statement as well, *pathy would then be communication between bits of this overmind just as, mundanely, internal conversations happen, or simple powers of unconscious observation and wishful thinking. In either case, we need more of it.
 
 
—| x |—
03:37 / 29.08.03
So elsewhere wrote:

“There is no supernatural begins.”

To which, I’d say, I agree (but, of course, I’d say “There are no supernatural beings,” for better grammar and spelling ).

There are “reasons” I hold for taking this stance as well. Words like “supernatural” and “paranormal” are immediately seen to be loaded words that carry all sorts of metaphysical baggage with them. Both imply a “world beyond” or a place transcendent of this world, and, well, there is only a singularity after all—the phrase “one world” means so much more than people think…

So, there isn’t anything that can manifest in the singular universe that isn’t natural or normal. Some things merely appear to manifest with alarming (or perhaps mind-numbing) regularity, while others are normal, but simply do not manifest with regularity compared to our limited life-span.

Now, quite awhile ago I conducted a thread here in the magick forum where we discussed these sorts of things. It was called diZzy. One aspect of that thread touched on this particular duality: internal vs. external. As well, the primary thesis in that thread was that any & all dichotomies have an identical structure that is based on the principle of the excluded middle: A or not A. In this case: internal or external is the particular instantiation of the universal. Tagging along with this assertion about dualistic structure was the idea that there is a “whole” or unitary singularity that cannot be expressed as such in reality, but must, perhaps partly because of our structure (mental, physical, etc.), divide itself into what appears to be two opposing realms, notions, ideas, and etc..

Thus, when we say something like “I created God,” or “God created me (and everything else),” what we express is our own interpretation of this division: we pick a side. Of course, in picking a side we are leaving the whole behind (or, to be less dualistic, we are simply ignorant of the whole) and willfully neglecting an aspect of reality.

Deep structure is hard to describe in words since words are mostly a product of our sense of surface references. How do I tell you what it feels like all at once when my cold hand is in hot water and my hot hand is in cold water? Is there a single word that expresses this unified sensation?

When there is an answer to this question, then we can perhaps see an answer to questions regarding “internal” and “external” entities. It is a neglectful stance the one that sides. To answer as best as possible, we need only rely on the impact of an ancient phrase (so long as this phrase has weight for us and is not merely parroted): “neti-neti.” Not this-not this (or closer to English “Not this and not that.”). To get an insight into the significance of this phrase we can cash it out with respect to specific instances with the aid of the following structure:

A is B & A is not B & A is neither B nor not B & A is both B and not B.

So, wrt our particular concern qua this thread:

Are there entities external to us?

There are entities external to us & there are no entities external to us & there are neither entities external to us nor are there entities not external to us & there are and are not entities external to us.

That’s the answer. Or perhaps more apt: that's my answer...
 
 
illmatic
08:01 / 29.08.03
h3r: Go to www.biroco.com and click onto his yijing pages (nad have a look at his blog while you're there, it's great). There's a really solid basic introduction and lots of reviews of heavier academic books. Get yourself a copy of Richard Wilhlem's translation and away you go. The instructions on casting hexagrams are in the back of Wilhelm but the pages above will give you a lot of useful context.

Like to get more stuck into this discussion but am too busy today.
 
 
h3r
17:50 / 29.08.03
dr. sinister, you came as close as possible to defining the situation with words, and actually presenting somewhat of an "ultimate" answer that leaves one with the sense of
A)satisfaction that now everything is set in stone and explainable
and B)disillusion because everythings a circle and now we're back at the point where we started off....

can anybody relate to that?!?

thnx tony jaguar, that site you point to looks very interesting. i'm into hakim bay and TAZ stuff. in fact i'm doing a little music thing next month at a Joseph Matheny lecture where he will provide scientific facts that some european scientist have come up with, which suggests that we do live in a reality construct similar to how the matrix movie portrays it...basically physical aspects of us in some womb-like egg somehwere, while we're hooked into a big computerprogram which we mistake for reality.....
it'll all be webcast and i'll let u know bout it...

this reality contsruct theory would blend EXTREMELY well with dr. sinisters "A=B and simultaneously A =not B" theory...if we DO actually perceive reality based on programming routines and algorithms etc, one could argue that it should be possible to run and access different routines (which contradict or even completely negate each other) within the umbrella master program construct. In this context we could also compare ourselves to AIs, having the ability to organically "grow" our own new routines and codes, which sits kinda nicely with what we understand as Chaos Magick I would say....
Of course there also would be a "bigger fish"to that "reality"program....but we can't even fathom or scratch the surface to that one unless we were to poke holes in the immediate construct and unmask it for what it really is...

anyways, this has been bit of a digression, but if we really consider that we are able to grow new routines ( and therefor create "rules" about whether there are external or internal entities) it definitely helps to discuss the stuff in a forum like this.....
 
 
—| x |—
21:33 / 29.08.03
dr. sinister, you came as close as possible to defining the situation with words…that leaves one with the sense of…disillusion because everythings a circle and now we're back at the point where we started off....

Yes, diZzying, isn’t it! I am v. fond of the Mobius Strip as a model of the process and object.

H. Bey’s ideas wrt TAZ are v. interesting; however, the idea that we are like these “Matrix” eggs “plugged in” to some rather large bio-computer is merely a metaphor of the times, and steeped in our science and science fiction narratives: “neti-neti.” Sounds like a reasonable metaphor/model, though. As for your ideas such a reality, I think they sound fruitful in the sense that any model that gives us motivation to realize our intrinsic magic/k is fruitful.

I would certainly agree that contradictory or self-negating “programs” can be run within a larger structure. I could be v. fearful of certain sexual practices while my neighbours carry them out in the house next door! Certainly, in a sense, we are AI’s: we are the artificial constructs that have risen out of the more basic computation machinery that is the Earth, which is itself a running subroutine of the solar system, which is itself a running sub routine of the Milky Way, which is itself…you get the picture, I know, I know!

Now imagine if, continuing the metaphor, the Universe’s program was actually being carried out on a quantum computer: all possible states of any possible universe are accessible here and now because this is the “calculation space.” Put differently, we are a part of this computations “rough work” and occur “on the same page” as any and all other “rough work.”

If anybody can relate to that…

 
 
h3r
23:30 / 29.08.03
dr sinister keep talking!! you're responsible for a big smile on my face now

definitely can relate.
isn't it beautiful how we can get off on a tangent and connect that way....

today is a good day!
 
 
Deadwings
06:46 / 30.08.03
Erh. Human perception is a massive hallucination, right? I mean, everything we experience or see or whatever is entirely filtered through a mask of chemistry and electrical impulses overlayed upon itself like a Recursive Onion (tm). So the grand fallacy in this is accepting anything as truth. Or as internal. Or as external. It's just an idea, but to a well trained (or expertly decieved) individual, the cell wall between in and out, between me and you can become permeable to the point of non-existence. The only way to really answer such a subjective metaphysical question is to remove all differentiation between given options until only one answer remains. True or not, it simply is.

...Shit, did I just repeat what Dr. NSSRBTANTMOAGTSEACGTZ said?
 
 
—| x |—
18:28 / 30.08.03
Geez, when you put it like that my name makes me sound like some kind of Cthulu Mythos Monster...with a doctorate!

…everything we experience or see or whatever is entirely filtered through a mask of chemistry and electrical impulses overlayed upon itself like a Recursive Onion.

Hmm yes. Apparently we intercept millions of signals from the “world” at any moment, most of which are filtered out of consciousness at the brain stem, and then we only (or so it is said) use about 8-11% of our brain’s capabilities to process that fraction of signals. In other words, our reality is pretty “dumbed down” by the editing of our brain. But think about this: on a more Eastern—or specifically Buddhist—view (and, if you’ve seen that thread in the conversation regarding the belief test, then you’ll also have seen that aspects of my belief structure are 100% compatible with Mahayana Buddhism!) the things in the world “co-arise.” This phenomena is called pratitiasamutpada” (sorry if this is misspelled—my Buddhist Dictionary is packed away at the moment!). Now what this cashes out as wrt Deadwings’ quote above is that not only are manifestations “tainted” by our filtering input through a human nervous system, but also, our manifestation is “tainted” by the filtering of input through the various objects we interact with. Put differently, a tree or a rock, say, by the way it is set up to interact with reality, will assist or aid in the manifestation of us. Thus, not only is everything we see filtered through our chemistry and etc., but all those things and ourselves are being filtered through all sorts of different configurations of chemicals and etc. depending on the apparent “objects” that we are interdependently co-arising with.

The tree experiences me through its own modes of reception and chemical composition. I experience it through my own modes of reception and chemical composition. Together, those “interpretations” of the world mesh to create the manifestation of the tree and me (of course, here there would also be dirt, grass, likely some residual H2O in the ground, and etc.—where would the chain of interdependence begin or end?!—but for an example it needed to be simple: two apparent “objects”). Ya’ C?
 
 
LVX23
21:56 / 30.08.03
Dr. Cthulu wrote:
the things in the world “co-arise.”

Your example refers to physical objects such as trees and people, but does it extend to formless energies of unknown origin, as in the "magickal entities" we speak of? If mutual apprehension is necessary for existence, does this negate the possiblity of noumenal existence? Can a thing be just a thing if not apprehended by another in some manner? In other words, if a tree falls in an empty white titanium room, is it still green?

Re: the original topic, I tend to fall into the "Both A & B" category. I believe much of what pass for "encounters" with seemingly external entities are, in fact, psychological phenomenon. However, I suspect that there exist classes of beings that are outside of our current understanding of what constitues intelligence or sentience. Aliens, hyper-dimensional entities, hive minds, ascended masters, secret chiefs, and reincarnated llamas, are perhaps but a few of these possibilities.
 
 
—| x |—
08:12 / 31.08.03
From the Desk of Dr. Cthulu

…does [your example] extend to formless energies of unknown origin, as in the "magickal entities" we speak of?

Why not? I mean, sure it could, but I myself lean towards interacting with entities that are immediately present, and not ones that I might “create” or “manifest” as merely a product of my mind. For God’s sake this world is busy enough already—I needn’t make it much more noisy, OSISTM. What I guess I’m saying is that in my life so far I have encountered v. little by the way of “magickal entities” beyond those entities which appear to me on a regular basis. Certainly, I’ve “felt” presences on occasion, but if those things were “real,” then yes, they are as embedded in the immediate context as I am, and thus, they are equally as made to manifest by myself and the other things present as we and those are by them.

If mutual apprehension is necessary for existence, does this negate the possiblity of noumenal existence?

Hmm, this term “noumenal” (from Kant et. al., yes?) is the flip side of “phenomenal,” IIRC. That is, it is a mere dichotomized division of a singularity; thus, it doesn’t so much negate the possibility of a merely “noumenal” existence: it undermines the idea that there is a separation from the phenomenal and so-called “noumenal” world(s). One and the same (like the giant and the bell-hop—see Twin Peaks).

Can a thing be just a thing if not apprehended by another in some manner? In other words, if a tree falls in an empty white titanium room, is it still green?

Well geez, this gets into the discussion that Quantum and I were engaged in over in the Headshop awhile back about things and relations. On the view I currently hold (and this is the aspect that caused much debate between Q and I) there can be only emptiness or nothing if there is a single thing; that is, if there is a thing, then it is composed of relations between other things, and there can be no manifest atomics—everything needs a partner. So, the tree would still be “green” iff there was an entity present who experienced the greenness of the tree, otherwise the quality of being green does not have a partner for mutual manifestation. However, the tree would still be a tree wrt it’s inter-relations amongst its parts & wrt its relations to (partnerings with) all the bits of stuff that partner together to make the “white titanium room.” Two entities here wrt tree and room. And how many things are there wrt the composition of the room and the tree?!

However, I suspect that there exist classes of beings that are outside of our current understanding of what constitues intelligence or sentience. Aliens, hyper-dimensional entities, hive minds, ascended masters, secret chiefs, and reincarnated llamas, are perhaps but a few of these possibilities.

Hmm, I don’t know if I see it so much this way myself. Certainly I do think that there are beings we don’t understand as being intelligent, but I think that these entities are no more than what is already present to us in the here and now. That is, take a grove of trees or even a single tree. I think that these things have intelligence and communicate at least with each other (but more deeply, everything, I think, communicates with everything—reality can be seen as a wave front of intertwined information). However, there sentience and communication isn’t currently within the scope of our definitions of “thinking things.” So, the list of things that you have given seem more to me to be manifestations of those sorts of intelligences: the mountain communicates with us, but we are forced to see that communication as “gnomes,” say—merely because that is along the lines of how we are going to process such contact: we need it to make some sort of sense to us—after all, mountains don’t talk or think, right?

As for “hyper-dimensional” entities, I dunno’. I used to think that there were things like that, but now I am more thinking that the only hyper-dimensional beings are instantiations of us and/or things like tress and rocks and birds and what have you. I mean, I think that I am a “multi-dimensional” being in the sense that not only am I consciously carving out a “world-line” (see Relativity) in a four dimensional spacetime matrix, but I am also carving out an infinite number of possible lives in an infinite number of possible worlds: the real me is that creature that is that collective set of experiences. I am but a tentacle or appendage of a larger being that is still identified with a “core” (if you will) me. My problem is that I only use a bit of my brain to decode a v. small amount of the assload of information received each moment. I have an intuition that the more I can learn to “see,” the better access I have (but still from a “limited human perspective”) to interacting as if I was more than a mere appendage of this strange and wonderful creature, but as a set of appendages.

On a total tangent now, this sort of model is what I use to encourage personal growth. Not only do I envision the Self that I desire to become, say, a better skater, I also picture shifting my perspective closer and closer to that set of world’s where not only am I a damn good skater, but I am a sponsored skater. Now, I can’t quite slip into that world since I still have so many attachments to this one—both immediate, in my past, and in my future. This set of attachments prevents me from fully jumping into the appendage of my Self where I am that pro skater.

If anyone can even make out what I am saying through all that nonsense!

 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
22:51 / 31.08.03
Ok, realizing I didn't really read much of this yet, (I'm tried, sorry) Deadwings' "Dr. NSSRBTANTMOAGTSEACGTZ" grabbed my attention, so I read his post. I'd have to pretty much agree with him on it (I had this conversation once already today, ironically). All sensory information is translated by the brain, so what you percieve and what's actually there isn't neccisarilly the same. So, yeah. Internal and external are sensory illusions. I can believe that. Stop me if Dr. NSSRBTANTMOAGTSEACGTZ and LVX23 said the same thing, I'll read theirs later...
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
21:10 / 04.09.03
Damn Zero you are just too smart. I like trying to communicate with cities. They are a outside of me as anything is and yet I am a part of them and they are complex enough for for consciousness to be an emergent property.
 
 
Lionheart
18:05 / 10.09.03
I've let this go on for too long. Now this horrid abomination which we call "lack of a topic abstract" must be dealt with swiftly!

Gasp in amazement as I wring my hands and bring a topic abstract out from the nothingness!
 
 
h3r
18:29 / 10.09.03
thnx lionheart...
i trust you will extract the perfect summary/topic abstract from inbetween the lines of this craziness....
 
 
Aleph
00:33 / 15.09.03
Here is my theory,

Beings contacted during magical rituals and psychotic episodes are external. They are external, in a physical sense, they are not part of ourself as in our self identity or our body. They are as much a part of yourself as a television program is part of a television. You could say their likeness only entered the screen of your mind temporarily to be witnessed, however they are not part of oneself. I say this with the assumption that the universe is not one infinite blob where everything is connected. If one were to start with this assumption then of course they would be part of us, then the separation is only an illusion.
 
 
—| x |—
00:51 / 15.09.03
"I say this with the assumption that the universe in not one infinite blob where everything is connected."

Hey Aleph--like the name btw, makes me want to change mine to Aleph Null.

Anyway, I was merely curious: what in the universe isn't connected to the universe? I mean, what is it for something to be isolated from the universe? Would not the complete separation and/or isolation of anything from the rest of the things in the universe necessarily make that thing transcendent of the universe, and thus, entirely beyond any possible interaction with anything in the universe?
 
 
Aleph
04:36 / 15.09.03
Thanks Dr. ~ (c^2) > 0,

in response to your question:

"What in the universe isn't connected to the universe?"

Thats a difficult question to answer but I don't think I was saying that. If one thing in the universe is connected to everything else in the universe(not necesatily not connected to the universe itself though), then you can't say something is outside of you. Rather you would be just a subset of something larger than you but its still you. Like a brain is not a separate part of the human body, but we make a distinction of where the brain begins and ends so that we can call it such. However with a whole body, one knows where their body ends and the air around them begins. Does one say these distinctions are "real" or are not? Does one exist in a universe separate from everything else in that universe or are we all part of one thing with artificial distinctions?
 
 
—| x |—
05:50 / 15.09.03
OK, now I gotcha'.

Does one say these distinctions are "real" or are not?

Well to me, and I think this is likely a restatement or variation of several above formulations, we don’t say either, we say one and the other, we say one or the other. Beyond that, I can’t think of anything else that gives us the best possible choice of potential perspectives. I mean, I think we need to operate as if these distinctions are real—in some ways, but in others, I feel that is as important to think that these distinctions are our own constructions. I suppose with the view(s) that I tend to expound ‘discretion’ becomes a v. central an important trait to cultivate. Previously awareness was the most important term/notion/state, but now I see how discretion coupled with awareness is the central tenet of the GODOG. I never thought of it quite like that before, thank-you.

Does one exist in a universe separate from everything else in that universe or are we all part of one thing with artificial distinctions?

Well, again, it is and isn’t that way, it is neither way, and it is one or the other—all at once (please see my exposition on Neti-neti). We are separate from the universe—clearly. We are one with the universe (not near as clear, but attainable—esp. through altered or “beyond the quo” awareness). We are neither separate nor one with universe: a contradiction—then what are we? Food for meditation, that. And we are both separate and not separate from the universe: another contradiction—how can we be in such a contradictory state? More food for meditation &, IMO, a healthy awareness to promote.
 
  
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