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Potentially awkward social situation...

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STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

15:59 / 19.08.03

Hokay.

Kind of a weird one, as usual.
I've got this friend; let's call him "A". Coincidentally, it turns out he knows another guy, "B", that I knew years ago and lost touch with (by accident).

Anyhoo... got a call a few days ago from "B", saying "just to let you know, I've had a major falling-out with A." A friend of A's just having moved in and sitting on the sofa about four feet away from me, I was loath to pursue the subject, but just said:

"How major?"

To which B replied "He and C (his girlfriend) are into killing amall animals for fun." I was quite hammered, and figured I didn't want to know any more, so I changed the subject and hung up. I have a vague recollection of him saying something about our local cemetery, though.

Then yesterday, I get on the bus home from the West End. By coincidence, there's my new flatmate (who, by the way, is totally unconnected with this, afaik) and A's ex-girlfriend, who I don't really know. She says "Oh, right, you're a friend of A's, aren't you?"

I respond: "Yeah. Um... I've been hearing some weird shit about him recently".

"If it involves animal cruelty it's probably true."

AAAHHHH!!! I really don't want this to be true. And I don't want to judge a friend on the say-so of an ex and someone who's just fallen out with him.

I'm going out for a pint with B on Thursday, so I'll try to find out more, and ascertain whether he's telling the truth.

But what if I bump into A beforehand? (He lives, like, a couple of streets away from me, so it's likely.)

16:12 / 19.08.03

Really quite bizarre. How well do you know this guy? Has this animal cruelty shit just come out of nowhere?

We're The Great Old Ones Now

16:15 / 19.08.03

Boink Boink! Wake up call for the Chairman!

Screw the social awkwardness: killing wee small beasties is a flag for all kinds of unpleasant stuff. The FBI considers animal cruelty to be one of the predictors of violence. (2).

First Strike gives further information, including Animal Cruelty and Family Violence: Making the Connection:

A 1997 survey of 50 of the largest shelters for battered women in the United States found that 85% of women and 63% of children entering shelters discussed incidents of pet abuse in the family. Children who have witnessed domestic violence or who have been the victims of physical or sexual abuse may also become animal abusers themselves, imitating the violence they have seen or experienced. A study conducted in 1995 noted that 32% of the pet-owning victims of domestic abuse reported that one or more of their children had hurt or killed a pet. Similarly, a 1983 study noted that children were reported to be abusive to animals in more than a third of a sample of pet-owning families referred to New Jersey's Division of Youth and Family Services for suspected child abuse.

In other words, the issue is not whether you have to avoid an unpleasant issue with your pal, but whether you're drinking with the next Fred and Rose West.

Don't piss about with this. Take advice, make an anonymous report, something - because you really, really don't want to have said "oooh, but it's not serious" if your pals upgrade to schoolchildren.

Yes, I'm being alarmist.

Yes, I'm still right.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

16:17 / 19.08.03

Believe me, my unusual fascination with serial killers means I have a library of that stuff!

I know A pretty well... according to his ex, this kind of shocked her, too, and they were together for years.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

16:18 / 19.08.03

yeah... in further response to Sam Vega... this is why I want to find out whether it's actually happening. Apart from anything else, even if they don't end up killing a bunch of people, I find the idea of killing animals for fun utterly repulsive on its own merits.

16:26 / 19.08.03

At the risk of sounding overly reactionary, if it turns out your mate really is torturing animals, fuck him off asap.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

16:38 / 19.08.03

Well yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking. But I want to find out first, y'know?

We're The Great Old Ones Now

16:58 / 19.08.03

Well, understood, but how can you find out and be sure? You can't just say "oh, by the way, I heard you get your kicks ripping limbs offa neighbourhood cats, how weird are you?" and be assured of the honest truth...

Sorry to sound so strident, but you did call this a social situation, whereas from this end it looks a bit more, er, radical than that.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

17:05 / 19.08.03

Well yeah. I'm seeing B on Thursday... (actually I phoned him and asked him out for a beer for precisely this reason) and will try to get more of a handle on the whole thing.

Otherwise, if it really is happening, for his mate and his ex to both know about it he's obviously not keeping it that secret, so I probably could go with the whole "what's this I hear about you being an animal-torturing bastard" approach. According to B, there was some kind of confrontation, suggesting that he's quite open about it.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

17:50 / 19.08.03

Oh, my. Well, watch yourself, I guess.

20:00 / 19.08.03

What if animal abuse turns out to mean sport hunting?

20:01 / 19.08.03

I s'pose there's always the hope that there might be an innocent explanation..
maybe it's an exaggeration, or a misunderstanding or something...?

20:48 / 19.08.03

Killing small animals in a cemetary with his girlfriend? Could it be some sort of ritual shit? The other thing that came to mind when I saw "girlfriend" was crushing, but I don't see why you would do that in a cemetary... mind you, I don't really see why you would do it at all.

If you meet him in the meanwhile you'll have to make an excuse and be too busy to stop because otherwise you'll spend the whole time you're talking thinking "what's that stain on his trousers? was that a vole?" and you'll give it away anyway.

21:16 / 19.08.03

Good luck, Stoatie. I'm not sure if that's an entirely appropriate thing to say, but I figure it can't hurt.

Cloned Christ on a HoverDonkey

23:00 / 19.08.03

I also suppose a lot of what determines how you're gonna handle this depends upon how well you know 'A'. I mean, if 'A' is a life-long bosom buddy, then maybe you're one of the only people who he can discuss this openly with. Maybe from this kind of discussion (in my naive, idealistic universe), he could end up trying to seek some professional help/counselling.

If this 'friend' is really more like a simple acquaintance, then I'd suggest you keep a very wide berth from him. That kind of cruelty to animals can only be indicative of some very serious mental problems.

Good luck.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

23:15 / 19.08.03

Don't know what to say, except to second S.V.I.P.'s concerns and to murmur holy crap. Hope this situation resolves itself somehow.

04:55 / 20.08.03

Definitely wait until you've heard from B; and if he seems certain - then do ask A about it, because as you said, B, C and A's ex all seem to know about it so it's no great secret by all account.

It may be bad, but I doubt it's as bad as all that. Definitely some hyperbole going on somewhere.

El Gato Was Right: the t-shirt

05:10 / 20.08.03

God, the whole fucking alphabet's loopy these days, innit?

Lilly Nowhere Late

05:18 / 20.08.03

ummm, what is "crushing"?

Stoatie if you run into A before I do, just avoid the whole thing by saying
"your hair looks like crap! Call Lilly!"

Then, as we discussed, I will find out what the truth is by bluntly
asking.

I have been thinking a lot about this, and I feel less and less suprised
that A&C would get into sex rituals and involve harmless rodents.

That said, I think it is inexcusable and if its verified, that will be the end
of A`s hair, to say the least.

Let me know if you find out anything.

07:25 / 20.08.03

Crush movies are like snuff movies but with animals. I seem to remember a bloke going down for sometime quite recently for making Crush stuff.

13:59 / 20.08.03

Gosh, I wouldn't know what to think.

So, the options are:

1. A & C are sick.
2. For reasons of their own, B & A's Ex are being slanderous or histrionic.

From here, I think either are just as likely. If two people can get together to torture animals, then two others (What exactly is going on between those two? Or is there another party involved as well?) could get together to tell porkies. I don't envy you -- two of your friends are weird, you won't know which two until Thursday, and maybe not even then.

07:30 / 22.08.03

So, how did the pint with B go? What's the beef?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

11:30 / 22.08.03

He cancelled yesterday. I'm hoping to see him today!
(Incidentally, I bumped into A on Wednesday night, and turned down the offer of a pint cos "I'm really fucking knackered". I don't wanna say/do anything until I know for sure, but I don't think I'd have been able to not mention it.)

Tryphena Absent

11:44 / 22.08.03

Watch it Stoatie, you're walking on dangerous ground here, refuse a pint more than once and he's going to know something's going on!

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

02:00 / 27.08.03

Gah! Got woken up by my flatmate last night who'd been out for a pint with friends of his, and she just said "Apparently it's true. I'll call you later" cos I had to go to work. Now it's four in the fucking morning and I haven't heard anything, so will have to wait until later today. It just sounds like it's gonna be really fucked up.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

11:25 / 27.08.03

Oh, shit, it is real fucked up. And no, he's making no secret of it. Is proud of it, in fact. Or, at least, was, cos I don't know if anyone's still speaking to the guy anymore.
Seriously considering an RSPCA/pigs phone call right now.
AAAHHH!!!
Freaked out. Going to bed.

11:46 / 27.08.03

Jesus. That's really horrible. Sorry, Stoatie - good luck with whatever you decide to do about it.

Tryphena Absent

12:08 / 27.08.03

I think you should get together with a load of other people and call the RSPCA together, that way if he tries to crush you, you can blame it on someone else. I don't mean to be flip... I think that it should be done though but that you should also feel that you have support in this. I hope you're okay sweets.

12:32 / 27.08.03

Well, definitely call the RSPCA at least. If the guy's public about it, somebody else could report it and it could make the papers. If it's some ritual or crush thing, could it turn into another stick the Daily Maul can use to beat the goth/pagan scene? And there's the animals being killed too. It sucks learning something bad (and criminal) about someone you know, much less being in a position to act on it.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

16:43 / 27.08.03

Agreed. Get together and rat the fucker out. Not just for the animals, and not just because it's right, but because think how much of an ass you'd feel if the next thing was a neighbour's toddler.

10:36 / 28.08.03

Words fail me.

I agree on the reporting him. This is atrocious and he shouldn't think that it is something he can just brag about and get away with.

From your point of view Stotie it'll feel vile ratting on him, but from my point of view that will be nothing to the feeling of disgust you will have for yourself if you don't take action. I get the feeling you are that kinda guy.

Know that you have our support and hopefully the support of all of your friends who are no longer speaking to him.

How does one come to the place where that kinda thing seems to be OK? Or maybe I really don't want to know. I guess everyone's "bad place" is different.

Hugs to you and supportive vibes coming your way!

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

11:03 / 28.08.03

Hmm. Have been agonising all night over the two questions: "What's the RSPCA gonna be able to do other than raid his house (if that?) and if they did, and all this was cemetery-based, then what evidence is there?
And: Stokey coppers ain't gonna do shit.

(Apparently, as I found out this morning, both conclusions have been reached by others as well. I know it doesn't make them right, but...)

BUT.......!?

Just after posting on here yesterday, I sent an email to him to effect that I hoped all this animal killing stuff I'd heard was bollocks...
Just got a reply (which I'll paraphrase, rather than copy, because whatever, I'm not gonna reproduce people's emails, seeing as how you only have my say-so to go on that any of this is real, and blah blah blah...) which basically said:

It depends on what I've heard. He killed a couple of mice that were infesting his house, and what should you do with them, they spread disease, and "if there were kids around, then it'd be bad for their health" kind of bleurgh.

All fair and good. Except that from what I heard 2 days ago (a few posts above) they were caught in humane traps, taken to the cemetery and killed. For fun.

Still stuck on what to do. (Can't raise all the others who know to do a mass anonymous thing until next week... but have SO not ruled it out as an option- though the previous problems with it still apply.)

Sorry. I'm drunk at the moment (big surprise) and I REALLY don't like the way this entire thing makes me feel. I just so wish none of this was happening. I love my friends, and I count on them to be nice people. When they're not, it kind of dicks with my mental radar.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

11:28 / 28.08.03

[climbs down from the Horse of Tough Love]

Okay, look. If all you've got is a couple of hearsay mice, there's nothing anyone can do. You can alert the RSPCA, but they can't do anything without evidence either. Better, perhaps, to call them and ask for advice. They don't need a name to give you help. Similarly, the law - amazingly, on non-contentious issues such as the cruel destruction of our furry cousins, PC Jones and DI Smith are pretty much just like you; they don't understand it and it doesn't make them happy.

If anyone has seen this event taking place, if they can point to the burial places of little mices, that's a help. If there were video, or if your friend were keeping animals alive in poor conditions, that would be different.

For the moment, you can only seek advice, and maybe get something on file. But get that advice.

12:04 / 28.08.03

If all you've got is a couple of hearsay mice

Surely if they were the only victims, the original story wouldn't fit? If A's ex-girlfriend knew about it before, then would that not imply that animals were killed before going out with C? As well as, presumably, those of which you're aware, killed during the time he's been going out with C...

Unless his ex learned about the whole affair after they split up and after he and C became a couple...?

Tryphena Absent

12:43 / 28.08.03

It sounds like phoning the RSPCA is going to be entirely fruitless. They're basically going to tell you there's nothing that can be done so you should probably forget about this and just detach yourself from A. Let him live his life out with the occasional twisted action. You should only be friends with people you can love.

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