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Gay Marriage

 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
 
Glandmaster
14:20 / 23.08.04
I agree with bcj - its stupid but then so is all state and/or cult sponsored 'unions'. Im all up for gay rights being a real man myself but we are falling into the usual trap of answering / reacting to the alleged state / cult norms.

The thing to do is look for the po solution. I see this as we should all have the right to claim a 'significant' other and these couples (more maybe?!) should have the same rights and benifits as 'married' types. For example what about two old sisters living together or patrick moore and his mum or two best friends - why do you have to dick the other person to pay less tax if there is love and respect evidently in play? Its a bit like the do parents have the right to smack childeren? I was asking do parents own thier childeren? instead. Glass half full, glass half empty or maybe get the right fecking size to start with?
 
 
Pingle!Pop
19:47 / 24.08.04
Im all up for gay rights being a real man myself

Unlike those poncy faggo - oh, never mind. Just glad you made sure no-one's in any doubt about the authenticity of your masculinity...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:28 / 25.08.04
I don't think any of us need to worry ourselves with taking the content of Glandmaster's post seriously.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:56 / 25.08.04
Well, this bit:

The thing to do is look for the po solution. I see this as we should all have the right to claim a 'significant' other and these couples (more maybe?!) should have the same rights and benifits as 'married' types. For example what about two old sisters living together or patrick moore and his mum or two best friends - why do you have to dick the other person to pay less tax if there is love and respect evidently in play?

Seems like a good question, although I'm not sure what a "po solution" is. I think deva mentioned upthread the idea of uncoupling the idea of civic partnership ("marriage" included) from not just heterosexuality but sex... you decide that you want to share a home/a life/ a family with somebody, or several somebodies, and organise your partnerships (which are in effect off-the-peg packages of rights, responsibilities and recognitions) accordingly.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
11:34 / 25.08.04
I think deva mentioned upthread the idea of uncoupling the idea of civic partnership ("marriage" included) from not just heterosexuality but sex... you decide that you want to share a home/a life/ a family with somebody, or several somebodies, and organise your partnerships (which are in effect off-the-peg packages of rights, responsibilities and recognitions) accordingly.

Mmm... certainly, there's plenty to be said for allowing any people to gain the same legal rights as married people; however, I'm not very convinced that fitting this in the Civil Partnership Bill is necessarily the best place. Unless, of course, the government were to abolish the institution of marriage entirely, I think that plenty of people would be rather upset at that bit extra such a move would add to the message of, "Your relationship isn't as valid/special as theirs," that is already inherent in calling the legal bond a "civil partnership" rather than actually allowing gay people to *marry*.
 
 
the Fool
00:52 / 31.08.04
Just to update people, its now illegal for me to marry in Australia. Laws were rushed through parliament last week with only the smallest blip in the media. The election has now been announced and gay marriage is nolonger an issue. Bad guys win again...
 
 
Pingle!Pop
17:05 / 22.12.04
... And an update here. Perhaps everyone else on the board was already aware ages ago, but:

Civil Partnership Act receives royal assent.

Hurrah! I'd thought the whole thing had been more or less written off after the Lords' wrecking amendment...
 
 
HCE
16:09 / 23.12.04
I wonder how those of you who are thinking of a checklist of legal relationships think the tax side should work.
 
 
Baz Auckland
23:01 / 05.04.06
Damn it again!

Canadian Conservative Government to "re-visit" gay marriage law...

The Conservative government of Prime Minister Stephen Harper says it will revisit the tumultuous same-sex marriage issue but no action is expected before the fall.

A wide swath of Conservative supporters eagerly await a chance to restore the traditional definition of marriage between one man and one woman. However, the Tories have said they will not seek to undo, or redefine, same-sex marriages that have already been performed.

Gay weddings were legalized across Canada last summer after court judgments repeatedly declared it unconstitutional to bar them.


That dumbest part of all of this, is the whole question of people that are already married... if they ban gay marriage, do they still have legal status? How can you have some same-sex marriages, while others are denied them? And there's the fact that the Supreme Court ruled that parliament had to allow it...
 
 
matthew.
16:28 / 06.04.06
The good news is, after I consulted with somebody who knows a thing or two about Canadian politics, that there is no fucking way the government will be able to take away marriage rights from everybody. It will never happen. There is sufficient opposition in the government to block any turnovers by them. As I understand it, 154 votes are needed out of 308. The Globe and Mail (a reputable, but Conservative paper) did a survey and found 153 members favour same-sex marriage while 136 opposed it. I would not worry too much.

However, if they do manage to take away same-sex marriage, I vow to run for office in my riding and make a big fucking stink about. Or, if that fails, pull a V For Vendetta on Parliament.
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
03:55 / 07.04.06
My big concern with Harper is that banning gay marriage has already been ruled as being in violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Thus Harper would probably have to invoke the Notwithstanding Clause to be able to pass any laws against it (the NWSC is the clause that allows French to legally be the official language of Quebec but English to be the official language of the rest of Canada).

Thus actually going back and overturning the law just...I dunno. It sets a dangerous precedent, especially since it was such a major law that, IIRC, had quite a bit of public support. Harper isn't going back to overturn it because of politics, he's doing it for ideological reasons.

Which is to say, I'd strongly disagree, but I would be really pissed off if it was something that had 0% public support, that everyone hated, or if it was a law that seriously hurt the country or its citizens (I'm not talking about gay marriage in particular, which I support, but laws in general). But, as I recall, over 50% of those polled said they supported gay marriage. It does NOT create an undue hardship on the country, and it doesn't do anything other than allow same spouse partners to claim spousal benefits. Which isn't really taking that much out of the government's pocket (and if Harper uses that as a rhetorical argument it'd be tanamount to political suicide). It just gauls me, it always gauls me, to see politicians restricting people's freedoms because their ideology or morals direct them to.

...and I realize that I'm not exactly saying anything new here, but I just felt the need to vent.
 
 
redtara
10:17 / 13.04.06
If you're not religeous, and most of the major religions get disproportionally upset with lesbians and gays than with the covetous or the bearers of false witness say, then your marriage options are reduced to entering into a civic palaver. A contract sanctioned by the same people who handle the bin collection contract. Romantic.

I know that there are other issues; taxation, access during illness and visibility not being the least of them. but it strikes me that gay marriage is the gay community demending the right to a pretty crappy institution, frankly we all deserve better.

I have five kids, two cats and a full time job. I don't need a husband I need a sodding wife!

Aaaah, now then....
 
 
alas
15:34 / 15.05.06
Just thought I'd add this annoying little comment from the Pope. I realize it's no shock, but still the language choice (at least as it's been reported in English) is a bit jaw-droppy...

The pope spoke to members of the Pontifical John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family, an institute founded by the late pope to promote church teachings on the sanctity of marriage and family.

During an audience to mark the institute's 25th anniversary, Benedict called love and marriage between man and woman an "authentic good for society."

"There is a special urgency today to avoid confusion with other types of unions based on a weak love," he said. "Only the rock of total and irrevocable love between a man and woman is able to build a society that is home to all men."


Oh, the rest of us? We're all here to be happy little homemakers for all (straight) men.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:38 / 15.05.06
No, but c'mon alas, he said "all men" therefore QED he is not homophobic at all! Do You See?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
15:40 / 15.05.06
Irrevocable love? What a strange way of putting it. Says something about the way the Catholic Church views love... as directly equated to marriage, I suppose.
 
 
alas
17:57 / 15.05.06
[the "rock of total and irrevocable love" is pretty intimidating--makes me feel like Indiana Jones at the beginning of Raiders... (Help! I'm about to be crushed by the rock of total and irrevocable love!)]
 
 
Spaniel
20:05 / 15.05.06
I've tried following this discussion, I really have, but sadly I keep wetting myself thanks to Dr Cameron's assertions.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:28 / 15.05.06
Love and marriage, love and marriage, go together like a horse and carriage...
 
 
sleazenation
10:05 / 16.05.06
There is a species of shrimp whose young inhabit sea sponges. As the shrimp grow the become trapped in the sponge. The largest male and largest female eat all their brothers and sisters until only that pair remain. In Japan, sea sponges containing such trapped pairs of shrimp are apparently sometimes given as wedding presents...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:23 / 16.05.06
'the sponge of total and irrevocable love' - doesn't quite have the same ring to it...
 
 
SteppersFan
15:16 / 16.05.06
Notwithstanding the (perfectly reasonable) critiques of heterosexual marriage posted here, it's still true that my wife and I really loved our wedding. For us, it was all about having our selves and our love recognised and celebrated by all the people we loved. That public ritual - we had a humanist wedding in a big steel-lined civic hall in Sheffield - was really great and deepened our relationship. So it was / is alright for us .
 
 
Ganesh
17:57 / 16.05.06
That's nice.
 
 
Queer Pirate
18:47 / 16.05.06
I'm quite alright with people marrying each other if that's their ideal relationship model - and it's definitely heartwarming to see two people promise each other undying love.

However, I have an issue with traditional marriage being treated as the pinnacle of relationships and with married people being given privileges. It really creates a stigma against polyamorous and/or sexually non-exclusive relationships.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:25 / 17.05.06
Well yes, that and the way that a thread on gay marriage is taken as requiring a post about how much I as a heterosexual love my heterosexual spouse...
 
 
Queer Pirate
17:13 / 17.05.06
Well yes, that and the way that a thread on gay marriage is taken as requiring a post about how much I as a heterosexual love my heterosexual spouse...

That just reminded me of a button I gave to a (female) friend of mine once:

"I'm not gay, but my girlfriend is."

Lol...

***EDIT - As an afterthought***

BTW, the two ladies have now been happily married for quite a few years now and they make such a great couple!
 
 
Ganesh
17:20 / 17.05.06
Yeah, I used to tell people, "I'm not gay, but I suspect my boyfriend might be".
 
 
grant
16:19 / 31.08.07
Now legal in... Iowa?

For non-Americans, this is peculiar because Iowa is a conservative, largely rural Midwestern state.

From that CNN article:

The 63-page ruling, written by Judge Robert Hanson states: "Couples, such as plaintiffs, who are otherwise qualified to marry one another may not be denied licenses to marry or certificates of marriage or in any other way prevented from entering into a civil marriage pursuant to Iowa Code Chapter 595 by reason of the fact that both persons compromising such a couple are of the same sex."

The law describing marriage as between a man and a woman, "constitutes the most intrusive means by the state to regulate marriage. This statute is an absolute prohibition on the ability of gay and lesbian individuals to marry a person of their choosing," Hanson wrote.
 
 
Automatic
09:11 / 03.09.07
Funnily Iowa, despite being largely rural is actually a fairly liberal state. As far as I'm aware it's been one of the safest Democratic seats for about a decade now.

While there are a number of rural republicans, the urban democrats far outnumber them.

Great news though, go Iowa!
 
 
Querelle
09:35 / 03.09.07
I grew up in Iowa... historically, it's actually the large population of farmers that makes the state consistently lean to the Democratic side... don't know if I'd go so far as to say socially liberal, especially not in these times, but definitely Democratic. I think it's because Democrats in the past have heavily subsidized farmers and fought in their interests, while corporate Republicans could give a fuck less.

Regardless, the issuing of marriage licenses to same-sex couples only lasted a couple of hours before the judge who overturned the marriage ban agreed to stay his decision pending appeal to the state Supreme Court. Plus, Republicans want to put this up for a referendum vote in January. I guarantee you, if the Iowa public gets to vote on this, they will vote down same-sex marriage, by a wide margin.
 
 
alas
17:15 / 03.09.07
I also grew up in Iowa--it's a mixed bag, politically, but even the republicans tend to believe in a solid infrastructure and have traditionally been willing to invest substantially in schools and roads etc. But on these sorts of issues it's strongly "conservative" in the "hetero-family values" sense of the word. Still, there are reasonable people there who, slowly, I believe will turn against this virulent anti-gay rhetoric as more and more find themselves in some form of relationship with gay people.

But what about this whole Larry Craig thing? I have been fighting between my whole schadenfreude about his hypocrisy being exposed and the sense that this episode still reinforces very conservative norms about "proper" sexual behaviors and locations and that it's ok for police to set up stings to arrest people for ...what exactly?
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
02:01 / 06.09.07
RE: Larry Craig - while the whole "police sting" aspect is horrific, I think enjoying the disaster his political career has turned into can be put down to more than just schadenfreude (not that that's not a valid response). That is to say, an aspect of the outing of a homophobic public figure (ideally) could be a reinforcing of the stereotype (backed up by certain studies, if I could find the bastard link) that homophobic (especially, and prominently) men are merely repressed and almost certainly miserable closeted queer men. Which could certainly feed into far more negative stereotypes, but nevertheless makes the homophobic lobby look less like a coherent and valid force of opinion, and more like a bunch of sexually uncomfortable, miserable, self-loathing people without the courage to stand behind their rights to their own sexualities. While I think anyone has the right to remain closeted at their own disgression (fuckit, I've exercised it enough times), the point where they start actively campaigning to make life worse for other people who are queer is the point where their exposure as such stops being such a terrible thing in a sort of Utilitarian calculation of misery. Because, often, it stops them being terrible to a large number of people, and as this particular set of events* is only going to happen to people with a degree of wealth/influence, they're hardly going to be risking the full consequences of aggressive outing to a regualar citizen. Something along the lines of "If you lie down with lions, and then get the lions to go around eating people, and then someone points out that you're not really a lion at all, but in fact a bloke wearing a sort of tatty lion costume and in fact secretly attending human tea parties, then it's not really anyone's fault but your own that you then get horribly torn limb from limb". Possibly this is a moral scope problem on my own part, and possibly one should pay more attention to queer-phobic pressure to remain closeted, but then again, there isn't that much pressure to become an outspoken homophobic public figure.

Again, apologies if this is gibberish.


(As a sidenote, while being decidedly ambivalent (hah) about the idea of "real" men, I do quite like the idea that in order to be a "real" (gender identity) one must recognise and support the rights of people to love people of the same (gender identity). If the concept has to exist (and I don't think it does), organising it along ideological egalitarian lines seems like quite a nice way to go about it - "John can't go about calling himself a 'real man' because he doesn't recognise the rights of men to do naughty things with other men" sounds like the sort of thing that I'd be quite pleased to hear down the pub. Rather than the usual. Or something.)

*specifically, outing to discredit anti-queer action on grounds of hypocrisy.
 
 
grant
15:23 / 06.09.07
Slightly more on-topic schadenfreude: Crowd turns on Brownback after anti-gay marriage comments.

And I don't mean "turns on" in that way.
 
 
grant
01:12 / 07.09.07
AAaand, back off-topic:

Oh dear. Oh dear.

Craig's daughter appeared on national TV, saying, "My dad's not gay!"

A viewer from Boise saw her and said, "Waitaminute! She's got an outstanding warrant for a contempt of court charge!"
 
  

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