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MIT&M? Teaching Magic.

 
 
C.Elseware
09:17 / 13.08.03
Continued from the thread The Disease that is Popular Magic

There was a discussion about a "university of magick", and many people saying that they've been looking unsucessfully for teachers.

So I'm turning it around. The people on this forum have more experience than many people interested in learning. So what have you done to make yourselves available as teachers? OK, maybe you're not an expert, but you know things which other people would like to learn.

I have done a lot of tutoring of students at my university, and that is how I ended up knowing so much about my subject. Watching people learn the same things in different ways helps you learn it more fully.

However I feel very uncomfortable taking responsibility for someone elses spiritual development, but then if not me (or you) then who?

So as an experiment I've agreed to teach a friend something. The hard part was working out something tangible that I have to teach that they would not have already got from a book. I have never seen any advice on teaching this stuff, but the more I think about it, the more the lesson in my head takes the shape of a little initiation. If I told them what it was in advance then it wouldn't work. (And they read this forum, so sorry, can't describe it here).

I have a friend who has been through some formal magick society initiations (Golden Dawn I think) but that was a long time ago, and he's obviously not aloud to talk about it.

I do really like the idea of teaching stuff in person. Magick is an art and a discipline and a knowledge. Teaching via mail/books/internet is all very well, but ultimately like trying to teach someone to drive via email.

Anyone got any experience as a teacher or student? Could you teach? Should you?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:27 / 13.08.03
I won't teach until I'm ready to practice ritually and prepared to talk about what I'm doing again. I'm very quiet about Magic at the moment, I won't discuss it with anyone in real depth and I'm not at all ritualistic in invocation. I definitely don't have the discipline to teach anyone and I'm not sure that I could teach anyway... I'm probably not patient enough. I mean I might get stuck with a Ravenwolf fan.
 
 
Quantum
11:46 / 13.08.03
My cunning plan is to teach Tarot for some additional income. When I read for people I end up spending more time explaining the symbolism of the cards and the structure of the major arcana than interpreting so I thought why not include that explicitly? All I need is an advertising campaign..
As you say, the one of the benefits is you get a much better understanding by teaching it to someone else, and it motivates you to hone your skills so as not to be embarassed.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
11:54 / 13.08.03
I do really like the idea of teaching stuff in person. Magick is an art and a discipline and a knowledge. Teaching via mail/books/internet is all very well, but ultimately like trying to teach someone to drive via email.

My first experience of being a 'magical student' was doing a correspondence course (postal, this being pre-net era) with the Order of the Cubic Stone. Basically, they sent me a set of 'grade papers' (basic qabalah stuff) and I worked through them, and had feedback from a moderator. It was interesting, but unsatisfying as I quickly found out that my moderator and I weren't exactly singing from the same hymn sheet (i.e. I got soundly ticked off for spelling magic with a 'k' and was told that "messing around with sigils" was tantamount to juggling sticks of dynamite). Around the same time, I met a woman who'd been doing magic for some years, and I felt that learned more from her in a half-hour conversation than I had in six months of rather terse letters from the correspondence course moderator.

I agree that books/emails have limitations. I would say that learning with a group or an individual is best (that's been my experience anyhow). For example, I can still remember the high priestess of the first wiccan coven I was in, over 20 years ago, showing me how to use a sword in ritual.

In the same coven, after I was given the '2nd degree' initiation, I had to do some 'teaching' which was very interesting, as it allowed me to focus on my own opinions and achieve a measure of clarity - very necessary if you're having to explain stuff to other people. Having to prepare 'training material' also helped me to look at magical techniques and practices and discover new ways of thinking about & understanding them. Teaching has been for me, a wonderful learning experience.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
12:15 / 13.08.03
However I feel very uncomfortable taking responsibility for someone elses spiritual development, but then if not me (or you) then who?

Well, it's good that you're thinking in these terms (as from my experience, many wannabe 'teachers' just assume 'responsibility' and have this "I know what's best for you" attitude which really fucks me off).
Whenever I've been involved in 'teaching' magic (either in a group or 1:1 situation) I've always made it fairly explicit that "responsibility" ultimately remains with the individual(s) concerned. This is a really important issue though, as so much of magical experience is intrapsychic, and if you're teaching some technique that has an element of risk - like possession, for example, you just can't predict how someone's going to react. But the only way to 'learn' that sort of thing is to do it, so preparation (before), sensitivity (during) and monitoring (after) become paramount.
Again when I've been entering into a long-term teaching/guiding relationships with someone, I've tried to set aside some time for drawing up a 'contract' (though not usually that formal) of mutual expectations, goals, and responsibilites (which can be just simple stuff like timekeeping, keeping in contact and so forth, setting boundaries on contact etc.).
 
 
illmatic
13:13 / 13.08.03
AoG:I felt that learned more from her in a half-hour conversation than I had in six months of rather terse letters

I can totally relate to that. My first “formal” learning experience was a year long daily practice supported with correspondence and the occasionally phone call from a mentor. Pretty fantastic it was, as well, but if I’d had face to face contact my mentor might have picked up on some of the traps I built for myself ie. trying to get it 100% right, beating myself up if I missed a day (which I did, invariably). I still count myself lucky that I didn’t hand over responsibility to a complete dickhead, as other people I’ve met seem to have done at times, which can be a very wounding experience. I think the lesson there is just to look out for people you trust, and be aware of what you might be projecting onto them, rather than taking it all at face value.

The best learning experience I’ve had by far wasn’t framed as teaching at all. It was simply a relationship I had with a friend who was an experienced magician , regular chats and conversation with someone who was a good friend. If I’d ever referred to him as a teacher or guru I know he’d have cringed or told me to fuck off, but the snippets of our tangential conversations meant as much to me as all my reading.

I’d see any teaching or learning that I may do as simply the sharing of experience – “I tried this, this happened to me – what about you?” If you are teaching, this might help to loosen some of your expectations/wishes/projections onto any “pupils” (yuck!). I think this is important because at some stage their experience will diverge from yours, even if you’re working with the same material.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
13:34 / 13.08.03
I’d see any teaching or learning that I may do as simply the sharing of experience - "I tried this, this happened to me what about you?" If you are teaching, this might help to loosen some of your expectations/wishes/projections onto any "pupils" (yuck!). I think this is important because at some stage their experience will diverge from yours, even if you’re working with the same material.

Great stuff Illmatic! I do feel it's important for those who are thinking of becoming 'teachers' (mentors, whatever) to examine their own motivations both beforehand and during the relationship. Something that's helped me assess my own performance is to keep a special 'diary' for noting & analysing my own perceptions of how the relationship is progressing, and to have the occasional 'performance review' with the other person(s) so that the relationship can be fine-tuned. Being in a teaching (yuck) relationship with someone can get pretty intense at times, so like you say, it's important to be aware of your own projections/expectations as well as those of the other person(s) involved as well. I had a close relationship with a guy I saw as a teacher some years ago, and I used to feel that "here's someone I can tell all my mad thoughts to". He still occasionally comes out with stuff, in his quiet and unassuming way, that just blows my head off.
 
 
illmatic
13:41 / 13.08.03
I think, to a degree, that it isn't even the teaching that's the most important thing - it's just great to be able to touch bases with someone who can echo and expand on your experience. I did a little bit of phone counselling a few years ago and one of the key things I got form that is that sometimes people just want to be heard and validated. I think this is as true for our magicial experience as any other area of life.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
13:44 / 13.08.03
Here's some reflections about the whole 'magical university' idea

I've been reading Pekka Himanen's The Hacker Ethic and the Spirit of the Information Age (Vintage, 2001) and he talks about the sociological impact of networking, hacking, etc., in terms of open-source learning. He makes a constrast between "the Monastery and the Academy" which struck me as being germane to thinking about the transmission of magical information between individuals in general, and in particular, with respect to discussion boards such as Barbelith. Himanen describes "the Monastery" in terms of being 'closed', i.e. that everything proceeds from authority and information is imparted hierarchically to a closed group, and does not allow for initiative or self-criticism. He quotes the Rule of St. Benedict: "It belongeth the master to speak and to teach: it becometh the disciple to be silent and to listen." It strikes me, from my own experience in magic, that the Monastery model is the dominant model of magical teaching - as bequeathed by the 19th century magical orders and some of their contemporary counterparts - and those individuals who wish to be accepted as 'authorities' and to teach from that basis.

Himanen contrasts "the Monastery" with "the Academy" which is where things get interesting. Using Linus Torvald's creation of Linux as an example of open-source development, he says that the real innovation of the free operating system was not technological, but social, as it was developed, in an open, social manner. For Himanen, in the Academy, ideas are open - if someone has a good idea, others can build upon it and adopt it for themselves. The multiplicity of viewpoints is, in itself, a central element of the proceedings. He says that in groups of [Linux] hackers, 'referee' groups only retain their 'position' as long as their choices correspond to the considered choices [my italics] of the entire community. If those choices diverge, then the community bypasses the original group and creates new channels. According to Himanen, this means that "authority status" is open to anyone and is only based on achievement, and that no one can assume a position where his or her work/ideas cannot be reviewed by peers. He goes on to say that a hacker's learning "teaches" others and that "an ongoing, critical, evolutionary discussion forms around various problems. The reward for participating in this discussion is peer recognition." Himanen talks about "the Net Academy" as "a continuously evolving learning environment created by the hackers themselves."

This Academy model, which Himanen says has it's roots in Plato's Academy (where students were not recipients of passive teaching but companions in learning), seems to me to be a useful way of looking at evolving approaches to magical 'teaching' as it occurrs on web forums such as Barbelith.
 
 
*
14:58 / 13.08.03
Interesting points, 0 gravitas. If Himanen were a magician (or whatever term is currently in vogue; I haven't been paying attention to that thread), how would he suggest we apply this same concept to magic? With a Wiki of Shadows, maybe? And how could one integrate personalized teaching/sharing of experience over the 'net?
 
 
Quantum
15:04 / 13.08.03
the Rule of St. Benedict: "It belongeth the master to speak and to teach: it becometh the disciple to be silent and to listen."
Heh. My name is Benedict IRL and I say "It belongeth the master to speak and to teach: it becometh the disciple to speak and to teach in return"
Everyone is always learning, to put yourself in the headspace of 'Master' obstructs that process. Master, student, we should be both.
 
 
Salamander
21:08 / 13.08.03
I didn't read your posts, not enough time, but I've had three apprentices, the first I failed with miserably and she's gone back to her regular disfunctional life, and the loss will burn my backside forever, jesus she had talent. The second had talent, and she is now pursueing a degree in homeopathy, she says her true will is to help people heal, rah rah girl go on. The current one is still underway, also a girl with great talent. I know what some of you dirty minded puritans are thinking, all three girls, my motivations in question? I have never offered to teach magick, and I don't accept any, ANY, form of compensation. I've found that the socratic methode of question answer, question based on answer, plus short lections on paper do best, leaving most effort and work to the student, only supplying key concepts, guidence, and the occasional nudge, is usually the best compensation. Teaching is not without it's sorrows and joys, as with anything in life.
 
 
Salamander
21:10 / 13.08.03
compensation? I meant combination, man what a fruedean slip!
 
 
trouser the trouserian
11:07 / 14.08.03
Hermes,
I know what some of you dirty minded puritans are thinking, all three girls...

In all honesty Hermes, I'd have to admit that for me, the most successful 1:1 'teaching' relationships I've had have been with women rather than men. And why? Simply 'cos I relate better to women than men, particularly on an emotional level.

Gentlething

Well, I'm gonna hafta dig out Himanen's book again and take another look at it. It also strikes me that William S. Burroughs' "Academy 23" concept would also be useful in this respect, again as an alternative model for learning (it's explained in The Job but I can't find an appropriate link right now). More later on this ... unless someone else wants to take up this point?
At the moment I'm a member of two groups (one quite small, the other tipping into 3 figures now) where the emphasis is very much on face-time interactions (i.e. a "primary group") but we're using the net in a supportive capacity - for all those things the net is good for, whilst recognising that what's really *central* to both groups is people getting together. Occasionally, in both groups, we've had people coming onto the e-group boards who seem to want to limit their interactions to email exchanges but who don't do well in facetime interactions - which is kind of missing the point of the groups. Obviously the 'lith is primarily a cyber-experience but who knows what kind of facetime 'communities'/TAZ's whatever might radiate forth from it, given time?

I do feel that Barbelith is already an emerging Net Academy in the sense that Himanen is talking about. Wikis, blogs & so forth are enabling us to share more info effectively and something I am particularly interested in - the process of de-emphasising the 'authorial' voice in magic. Whereas magical writing has been ('traditionally') one big cheese holding forth, Barbelith is more like a fruit salad - and when people start talking about producing communally-created texts and so forth, I get really excited, 'cos it strikes me that that's much closer - in a kind of cyber-way, to the idea of an oral tradition [info-tradition??] than over-reliance on the authority of 'experts'. Is that making sense?
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
13:03 / 14.08.03
Ok, so I've honestly only been intentionally doing magic for about 7 months, (although, looking back I did it a lot without realizing it) but I know someone who could have even more natural talent then I have (and everyone from a wiccian priestess to... ok, I don't have a good finish to that statement. But I've been told I have a lot of talent for this )
So, what do I do? I live in the most far-right-supreme-Christian-burn-the-witches location north the Mason-Dixon line. There aren't very many "magickians" in the area, which is why I'm basically teaching myself as I go. I know I can't fully train this person myself, I lack the experience. Do I try to teach her some of what I know and trust she'll figure out the rest (even as I'm trying to figure it out myself, since I also lack a teacher)? Suggestions, anyone?
 
 
illmatic
13:08 / 14.08.03
I love the idea of multi- source occult texts, shared documents. Might be the way to go – it definitely matches some of the feelings I get writing on Barbelith, I sometimes feel as if I’m jamming off other people’s ideas. And never really know where it’s going to go until I start writing. I like the idea of the “academy” – it definitely challenges the sense of the magician as a separate, all controlling, powerful outsider, commented on elsewhere. For me, a lot of the group stuff I’ve done has been about building relationships with others, letting them deepen. This doesn’t have to revolve around formal work either, could just be chatting over a few pints or a spliff or two.

To flip the question a little, we’ve talked about the experience of teaching – what about the experience of learning? What have people’s experiences been like of learning out of books, or from mentors? What qualities do you think one needs to get the most from one’s learning?

My one experience of mentoring thus far was interesting, but still pretty negative. The guy I was involved with had a bit of a tendency to live in his head which was exacerbated by him relying on net based communication. I was trying to get him involved in practices which would take him away from this, which he didn’t seem to get. This led to a split eventually, after a quite challenging mail from me when I was a bit annoyed, which I regret. This might have turned out very differently if we’d say, lived in the same city or whatever. If I end up having this sort or relationship again, it’ll be face to face only, I think.


Spyder - one suggestion might be just to share experiences with her as I mentioned above. Just spend a lot of time chatting and see what emerges.
 
 
Quantum
14:06 / 14.08.03
jamming off other people’s ideas illmatic aka Tony Jaguar
I think that's an excellent description of what goes on. Musicians in a band don't teach each other like master-student, they work together to produce something, or just for it's own sake. Same with magick ideally.

I do feel that Barbelith is already an emerging Net Academy absence of gravitas
I agree, the Magick is where I have the most discussion about this stuff, and certainly where I would point anybody who asked me for advice.

Spyder- what qualifications do you need to teach magic? none. How much experience? as much as you have. If you know someone who is talented then teach them what you know, not only will it help you understand what you already know better, but they'll teach you stuff whether you realise it or not. And if you DON'T teach them the stuff you know, how will they find it out? Is it fair to keep the stuff you know from them because you're not confident about it?
What I'm saying is don't be a teacher, be a fellow explorer.

(BTW you have my sympathies as a magician living where you do)
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:55 / 14.08.03
Illmatic - re: mentoring. "Mentoring" is really a hot concept in in modern business practice and organisations such as the NHS (just read a great article in last month's Nursing Times on mentoring programmes in modern hospitals). It's kind of become a bit of an occult 'buzzword' (partic. in CM circles) but like so many good ideas drafted into the magical sphere from outside, I don't feel there's been that much attention paid to the dynamics of mentoring. Yr experience with the guy who lived some distance away is a good one, though. Mentoring seems to be most effective when it takes place within a day-to-day living/working environment - be it an office or a hospital ward. You need regular facetime contact. I don't think it can work over the net, or for that matter, if you can't get together with the other person on a regular basis.

Magical 'jamming' way cool, dude!
 
 
salix lucida
13:35 / 15.08.03
Ill asketh: what about the experience of learning? What have people’s experiences been like of learning out of books, or from mentors? What qualities do you think one needs to get the most from one’s learning?

The occult-friendly group of misfits I most often associate with offline have accidentally developed a "sidekick system" of mentoring over the years. People who find their way into the group without a solid clue and metaphysical worldview of their own often wind up being mentored by whichever of us can physically spend the most time around them and get along with them the best. It informally ends when the newcomer has a pretty solid theoretical and practical grasp on things, and has developed a distinct paradigm of their own, off at an angle from their mentor's, rather than listening and buying into it completely. I've been on both ends of this system over the past few years.

I find as a student, it helped a lot to have 'net forums and books AND such a face-to-face interaction... a lot of realworld "look, this works" and theoretical"here's some other ideas, play with them". Keeps it mixed-up, interesting. Books are nice, after all, but it's rather difficult to get a feel for the energy behind anything, that way. The 'net has been a bit more useful (though to be even more wary of, given the complete lack of quality control), as it's alive, in its way, and my path is fairly technomancish. As a teacher in our system, I've learned far more than I did sidekicking, though... damn kids ask all the questions I never thought about.

And I've completely failed to answer the second question. Ah well. I'm supposed to be working anyway...
 
 
Salamander
01:34 / 16.08.03
I like the idea of jamming, it'd be great to put on performance pieces of ritual for an audience, slightly freestyle and impromptu, cassical greek ritual theater, but thats of point

I like the idea that barbeltih is an academy, I've learned alot here you just can't get in books, the wiki's are some of the most imformative things I've read, on any subject. Though the whole lack of face to face contact does erk me a bit sometimes.
 
 
—| x |—
07:42 / 16.08.03
Well, I myself had merely a brief correspondence through mail with E.E. Rehmus. We exchanged letters for close to a year (perhaps six or seven letters each). That was the extent of my “official” mentorship. What is funny is that he and I discussed actual “magick techniques" v. little, and more simply related to one and other. And I think this is where all the best learning and instruction takes place: when it is simply in the relating and not in the “studying.” I mean, take a look at GM’s portrayal of Dane’s apprenticeship in The Invisibles: Dane basically “hangs out” with his teacher for an extended period of time & there is little actual “instruction.” I see that some of you above have put forward similar sorts of views.

It seems to me that being “magickal” or a “magician” isn’t like a career or profession—it is a way of being a human. Thus, the best way to teach and/or learn is to simply be and be with: in short, to relate. It is through an open and honest relation that we are going to learn and/or instruct others—the rest is all largely superfluous (but in its own way important).

Another thing is, to repeat what I’ve said elsewhere, I came to the realization several years ago that our “guru” does indeed find us, but that is a function of our readiness to “find” our teacher through our everyday interactions and relations with the world. If we continue to believe that we need to find that one right person or that one wise individual, then we are stuck on a hopeless road of a wild goose chase. However, if we take to each of our days (or most of our days, or hell, even a few of our days) the attitude that we are open to learn from whomever and whatever we encounter, then we are going to continue to learn and grow for the duration of our lives. Our guru is all around us, we merely have to be receptive to the teachings that bombard us in every experience. As they say, “live and learn.”

Which means for me as a potential “instructor” of things occult that I must never lose sight of the fact that the “student-teacher” relationship isn’t fixed; that is, whenever we are one, we are also necessarily the other (unless we are simply “bad” teachers). I can’t imagine thinking that I’ve arrived somewhere (well I can, but I needn’t create that reality trap for myself): a journey without destinations, departures or arrivals, ya? Or differently (and quoting the b-boys), “As long as I learn I will make mistakes.” The day I stop making mistakes will be the day that my heart stops beating, or so I hope.

One final comment: I feel quite strongly that taking on an apprentice is tantamount to releasing a copy of yourself into the world. Let me fill that out a little more because it doesn’t mean what it reads as saying. I mean, as people who take a role in “instructing” someone, we become entwined with that person; that is, we become one in the student-teacher relation. This entwining is non spatial-temporal: it keeps us linked throughout the course of at least this life. Thus, we become responsible for not only what we teach and how we teach it, but also, we become involved with the responsibility of how such teaching is put into practice by our students. In different words, we take a share of any karma accumulated via the applications of our instructions. This is another reason why I loathe Pop Magic/k: these authors are obviously hacks if they feel they can put forward such garbage into the world to make a quick buck—because it is trendy—and simply shrug off the use of their instruction. Obviously (at least to me), an individual who doesn’t recognize the importance of sincerity in their free doling out of knowledge also can’t possibly be aware of their share in responsibility for the use of such knowledge. This doesn’t hold for merely teaching occult, but all teachings: if we are teaching someone how to be a carpenter, and then if he or she goes on to build shoddy houses, we are partly to blame.
 
  
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