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How useful is "intelligence"?

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Whisky Priestess

13:55 / 11.08.03

An acquaintance of mine, otherwise notable for his general milky-smelling loserishness and lack of obvious uses, last night mentioned that he'd just discovered that he had an IQ of about 150 and was thiking of joining Mensa. He seemed to think that having a high IQ was in some way a marketable skill and that this might open up a number of enticing career paths.

I silently scoffed at the poor lad's naivete and out loud, tried to let him down reasonably gently by pointing out that the skill was in using it, not having it - but was I wrong?

Could he (for example) make lots of good contacts at Mensa who would be likely to offer him a job on account of his superior spatial reasoning and number skills? Is it like the Masons? Is the only use of high IQ to boost your confidence and win Countdown? What have people's experiences been?

13:58 / 11.08.03

If I was employing someone, about the last thing I'd be interested in would be a good score in an IQ test. Experience, knowledge, enthusiasm and a pleasant personality would all be far more important.

Tryphena Absent

14:00 / 11.08.03

Well I suppose it depends on who he might meet at Mensa and how well he gets on with them. Somehow I doubt a high IQ = immediate job success and an indoor swimming pool.

Goodness Gracious Meme

14:05 / 11.08.03

There's also the question of whether a high score on a mensa test proves anything beyond the fact that you're good at mensa tests. Even the most typical milkround pyschometric tests, for example (the one example of such a test being a gateway to a career/cash) these days are pretty different/more rounded than a straight IQ test. they tend to test yr skills/applied intelligence...

Is your acquaintance successful in 'swimming pool terms'?

maybe he could marry Mensa money?

do quiz shows?

14:28 / 11.08.03

MENSA is aimed specifically at people who are clever enough to do the tests (most people) but not clever enough to realise you're paying for the right to identify yourself as a pretentious wanker.
Quite apart from that 'intelligence' is a myth (there is no measurable stable personality trait that is intelligence and we can't even define it), IQ tests are arbitrary and culturally dependant, what we call intelligence is a complex of factors that... oh never mind, you people know all this because you're clever.

Does having a high IQ help you get on in the world? Resoundingly not, all the clever people I know are dissatisfied and spend a lot of time bored. And the stupid people are in charge.

14:34 / 11.08.03

On the other hand, maybe this will give him the confidence to go out and do things he wouldn't have done otherwise because now he 'knows' he's smart when he didn't before. And maybe he'll meet other people he likes, feel better about himself generally - I wouldn't knock it completely.

14:46 / 11.08.03

I suppose joining Mensa and engaging in the various social activities might give you some benefits, like joining the right golf club. So it's not a complete waste of time if he's into that sort of networking, and industries he's interested in are actually represented in Mensa. On the other hand, he could also consider joining the Masons.

14:50 / 11.08.03

was thiking of joining Mensa

either that was deliberate or the most Freudian typo ever!

I have a very low IQ, just scraped into a school wch required one of 120, and that was after extra training in taking the tests. That hasn't stopped me teaching at Uni level, so I just don't see IQ as a very useful guide.

As for money, I have a mate with a PhD and two M.Sc.'s who, despite working in jobs wch require all three qualifications, has never earned as much as an aquaintance with an average degree and a job as a primary teacher.

So what i'm saying is that 'intelligence', 'IQ' and earnings don't seem remotely linked, as far as i can tell.

Oh and definately yes to what Anna said. Some of my most intelligent mates (I mean, intelligent IMHO) left school with virtually no qualifications at all, and are thus seen by society as as dumb as they come.

Whisky Priestess

15:14 / 11.08.03

Ah. No. "Thiking" was in fact a typo. And I'm astonished that schools actually have IQ barriers. How very eleven-plus. I was just wondering, really, if being good at IQ tests or joining Mensa had any practical application at all, (apart from winning non-knowledge-based quizzes, obviously). It just seems so inherently useless and yet it has an aura of such significance.

No star here laces

15:54 / 11.08.03

It's about as useful as being clever or having good ideas - i.e. not at all...

Whisky Priestess

16:12 / 11.08.03

... unless you do something with it, exactly. All he seems to be able to do so far is write terrible autobiographical plays, poor lamb.

17:11 / 11.08.03

"I am so smart. S-M-R-T!"

Nothing alone does anything. However, somethings in tandem with others work wonders. Think about it, if you're smrt enough...

17:24 / 11.08.03

my 2 cents:
1 cent: i knew a couple who found that they qualified for mensa, and were going to join, excited to get w/a group of like-minded intelligent individuals, who of course would band together to use their superior brains to help solve world problems. they looked into it, and according to them, it's not more than a snobby wine-and-cheese group.

2 cent: i've read that having a higher IQ usually does help you, in whichever career you choose. for example, it doesn't mean that you will become the president of yr country, or a CEO, but if yr a carpenter, then yr more likely to move up to head carpenter (or whatever) more quickly. having said that, i have also read that more important than IQ (in general, in life) is EQ, this new thing they made up, which stands for emotional intelligence quotient. i believe this, cos if you are so shy that you mumble yr way thru an interview, or if yr so hot-headed that you scream at people for next to no reason, you will not go far, even if yr IQ is off the charts.

18:19 / 11.08.03

Good two cents there, mantis. The High Priest of EQ is Daniel Goleman who brought out a best selling book about it. Convincing stuff, I think. We used to teach our team leaders about it in my last job.

Intelligence can be useful but only if you can apply it in some worthwhile way. IQ tests measure bugger all that's of any use in the real world, IMHO. I always do well in them but would rather have trained killer squirrels nibble my toenails off than spend an evening in a roomful of smug bastards who think their score makes them special in some way.

Wilful stupidity is equally unattractive, mind. I think your friend would probably be wise to sign up to Mensa right away, Whisky, if he is as challenged as you describe in ordinary ways. Maybe it's a good way to get a shag. I suspect they all have very bad hair and poor social skills but I'm prejudiced, no doubt.

18:57 / 11.08.03

It's all about the desire to succeed. I speak from experience as the archetypal "bright, but unmotivated" kid.

I've found that ruthlessness and moral flexibility will get you farther than education or intelligence.

Which explains why my ex-girlfriends make so much more money than I do.

Grand Panjandrum of the Pointless

19:31 / 11.08.03

It seems to me that IQ tests place far too much emphasis on speed, on how quickly one can solve a certain no. of puzzles.
The crux of the matter being that the successful application of intelligence to life is not about solving lots of brainteasers fast, but with coming up with workable solutions to much bigger problems that don't necessarily have clear answers. And with taking the right amount of time over it. And with delimiting the problem properly in the first place.
I was taught at university by a bloke who got a first at Oxford, a PhD at Cambridge, and failed the intelligence test for the RAF. He was a relatively slow thinker, and I think one of the most intelligent people I've met.

But perhaps this is superficial too- as one philosopher said to another
"If you didn't talk so bloody quickly, no one would think you were so clever."
To which he replied
"If you didn't talk so bloody slowly, people wouldn't think you were so profound."

23:11 / 11.08.03

Yes. Being insufferably smart is a short cut to personal wealth, sucess and fulfillment. I'd explain how but you're too stupid to understand, Whiskey. IQ tests are adept at demonstrating how talented you are at taking IQ tests in much the same way that academic exams primarly expose ones talent at jumping through the particular hoops that whoever is setting the exams values at that time.

On the other hand, badly written autobiographical plays are the cornerstone of true civilization, so get off my back, you can't have a part.

02:14 / 12.08.03

I think having a high IQ gives you a leg up in the world but being attractive probably helps more.

02:29 / 12.08.03

Whover said that Mensa was like a snotty wine and cheese party pretty much had it dead on, as far as I understand... It is apparently for people who need to feel superior, and I would much prefer to use magick to pamper my ego and feel superior to everybody else....

Anyway, there might be advantages to your friend joining. The main one I can think of is that he might run into one of the anomalies - the janitor with the IQ of 200 who just doesn't give a shit and will prompt your friend to figure out what's most important for him.

10:36 / 12.08.03

Agree completely with Quantum and Iszabelle about the indications that joining Mensa send out – it seems like a sign of an insecurity complex, rather akin to putting B.A. or similar after a name on a business card.

And as a stand-up comedian friend of mine used to say, “Mensa aren’t so clever – after all, their HQ is in Wolverhampton…”

Whisky Priestess

13:16 / 12.08.03

I just remember my Mum, who failed the eleven-plus and got a 2:2 at university (and let these two things sear their way into her soul) constantly banging on about her high IQ and in the same breath saying how meaningless it was. I think if you have to tell people about it you've got some serious insecurity, social or intellectual, going on.

But it must be nice to be a secret genius. I reckon if I had a really high IQ, like 175 or something, I'd just smile smugly and knowingly when people boasted about their score of 152.

Smiles smugly and knowingly, for no good reason ...

13:29 / 12.08.03

I read that that British IQ test thing they did showed that people's income was pretty much inversely proportional to their IQ.

Being on minimum wage, I'm more than happy to believe this research.

Whisky Priestess

13:56 / 12.08.03

Time to marry a stupid rich man, methinks.

16:32 / 12.08.03

It's small consolation, I know.

21:37 / 12.08.03

FWIW, there's a "new" IQ society out (www.highiqsociety.org) who are basically rejecting Mensa as an old-school group of 50 year old pretentious golfers, and building their own network of young geniuses. They claim to have a more accurate IQ test.. they've got 5 different ones, even one that's culture-neutral so that if English isn't your native language you aren't penalized. You have to be in the upper 5% IQ percentile (which comes out to around 126 or higher), then you can join (about $50USD, I believe).. the cool thing is that membership gives you the opportunity to join their Research Institute, which is some think tank that is used to solve complex world problems or something or other. It's a pretty cool, ambitious idea.. it sounds like these guys are getting paid to use their brain power, which is how is should work in an ideal world. Anyway, I took the test last night and barely passed, but I don't know if I want to shell out the cash to join. It's interesting to check out anyway.

Goodness Gracious Meme

21:47 / 12.08.03

Time to marry a stupid rich man, methinks

Isn't it always?

22:01 / 12.08.03

No one works harder for their money than the person who marries for it.

22:03 / 12.08.03

Etherbunny, I will give you the $50 to join if you promise to start up a Joycore thread on on the highiqsociety messageboard.

05:12 / 13.08.03

Well, my grandpappy used to say, "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's probably just a bunch of dung beatles taped together."

08:24 / 13.08.03

A couple of the people I know who've joined Mensa managed to alienate all their friends by picking them up on any comment which wasn't considered high-brow enough, and debating everything into the ground. In that way knowing you have a high IQ seems to adversely affect how you get on in the world, so maybe it's better not to know.

By the way I love the thought that losers smell of milk!

09:45 / 13.08.03

milky milky!

alienate all their friends by picking them up on any comment which wasn't considered high-brow enough, and debating everything into the ground.

send 'em here, i imagine they'll fit in just fine. ;-)

11:09 / 13.08.03

Well if having a high IQ means being able to grasp things quickly it must be useful. I sometimes wonder about my damn brain. Why do certain things only make sense after about a month?

Morlock - groupie for hire

12:54 / 13.08.03

Pretty meaningless, Buk. I'd love to be able to understand, say, General Relativity, in a month. Note that the IQ problems are really simple if you understand the trick, it's more about looking at things in the 'right' way. It's multiple choice, rather than derivations, explanations, whatever.

Best I've heard about intelligence:
"Intelligence is the ability to understand complex matters. Genius is being able to explain them."
Not to be confused with door-to-door salesmanship.

19:04 / 13.08.03

I'm absolutely rubbish at IQ tests (so bad that I usually give up on the online ones in disgust well before I finish) and I certainly don't think of myself as stupid. On the other hand I spent today correcting an error I had made in every single spreadsheet I have created over the last month (it wasn't entirely my fault, but still...).

Being intelligent in the very narrow sense of IQ tests, exams etc. doesn't necessarily mean that one is actually competent at anything.

ONLY NICE THINGS

19:31 / 13.08.03

It's a pretty cool, ambitious idea.. it sounds like these guys are getting paid to use their brain power.

Well, yes. They are using their brain power to get people to send them $50, and thus getting paid into the bargain. Pretty slick, really...

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