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So how was "The Filth"?

 
  

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Aertho
16:37 / 08.08.03
Although I was terribly interested throughout the run, I neglected to pick any of it up. I prefer MY Morrison in larger morsels; I'm planning on getting the tpb. Can anyone give me an idea of what to expect? I thoroughly enjoyed Invisibles, someone once suggested that The Filth was its Qlippoth... is that true? What were your overall opinions on the series? overall dislikes?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:47 / 08.08.03
Some really good ideas, sloppily executed by Morrison. Important plot points ignored for several issues so you think that perhaps they weren't important, then it turns out they were and there's no explanation for why they were ignored. Two issues wasted on an incredibly crap story about porn.

Paper-thin characters, except for Ned Slade, who is conversely one of Morrison's best creations, and Dmitri the Marxist chimp assassin, there to swear and shoot things. Don't worry about all that nonsense Morrison was talking about how The Filth was about ugly people having sex, within a couple of issues Greg shaves off that combover and is slim so that Grant can shag more fictional characters again.

Chris Weston's art is superb, much better than his stuff for The Invisibles. Good issues so far? #4, #7 and #9.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:49 / 08.08.03
But don't worry, someone will be along to tell you that it's brilliant and that I'm only underwhelmed because I'm stupid. They probably won't say it directly but words like Qlippoth will be used and the condescension will be as thick as a Winter frost.
 
 
The Natural Way
17:06 / 08.08.03
I agree with a lot of the above, TBH.

It's good in lots of ways, but it's very flawed.
 
 
The Natural Way
17:14 / 08.08.03
Good stuff: very, very funny. Dirty psychedelia (horrid suburban wallpaper looks quite *beautiful* viewed from the correct angle). A fantastic idea-fest improperly mined.

I think Grant needs to slow down and take his time over stories again. His between-panels approach often borders on incoherent. He condenses stuff so much these days that it all starts to feel like info-biscuits as opposed to a narrative. And he's got to stop *telling* so much and start *showing*.

Oh, yeah, and in general his characters need to stop saying things like: "I am blah, blah, blah, of blah formed in vats of distilled piss-time blah..." I'm sure some people out there know what I mean.
 
 
pachinko droog
18:14 / 08.08.03
Top-notch artwork, but the story's a bit, well--IMHO its probably one of the most self-indulgent things he's written. (I'm still buying the last two issues though, neurotic completitst that I am.)

I much preferred The Invisibles and his work on Doom Patrol (eagerly looking forward to those DP trades), as well as Animal Man & JLA --ESPECIALLY the "Rock of Ages" tpb. Oh, and can't forget those issues of "The Flash" he helped write. "The Human Race" 3-parter was my favorite story arc in ANY comic in a long time. But "The Filth"--not my favourite by a long-shot.
 
 
Bastard Shit Man
18:47 / 08.08.03
Every issue since #3 have delighted the pants off me. And when I went back and read #1 and #2, I loved those too.

If you’re into Qabalah, you’ll probably enjoy that aspect of the series; but it’s pretty much sub-sub-sub-text, so feel free to ignore it, if you like.

Quality of art and story struck me as more consistent than Invisibles – the fact that it’s a mini-series, I suppose.

Occasional dull moments…some panels of the first part of the porno story, the narrative pattern-repetition of the second part of the Libertania story, and that’s about it for me.

All of the issues made me go “eeuurrr”. Most made me laugh out loud. Two issues made me cry.

I love Filth to bits so far. Favourite thing on the shelves.

Two this month! Yes!
 
 
diz
18:59 / 08.08.03
overall, i like it.

i don't think it's Invisibles-level. i think that the characterization of the whole as a self-indulgent ideasfest is pretty fair.

however, i used to think the plot was more scattershot than it seems to be now. it seems to be cohering in some unexpected way for me. i think that, collected, it will make a hell of a lot more sense than it does now.

the pace does sometimes seem too rapid and jerky, but sometimes it has this weird effect where things make sense to me in a similar way to the way they make sense when i'm dreaming or tripping, where i can't explain it, but i understand it. you know? i don't know.

i am interested in the Qlippothic sub(subsub)text but it's a bit lost on me right now, i'm afraid.
 
 
eric minutes
19:05 / 08.08.03
I agree with Bastard Shit Man(hahaha)I'm loving the Filth...one of my favorite scenes from the Libertania story is when Spartucucs is explaining that all it takes is one rat to ruin a utopia.....then there's this wicked close up of his face in the shadows and he says...."one rat"....gave me chills....To put it simply...the Filth is the shit!
 
 
Aertho
19:48 / 08.08.03
I read that Qlippoths are only the Sephira subtracted of Meaning. The Godhead without Unity is its qlippothic Hell. Understanding and Beauty without Meaning seems a bit lost on me, I can totally understand Emotion(7), Reason(8), Imagination(9), Judgment(5), The Give(4) and Inspiration(2) without Meaning make plenty of sense. Hopefully this primer might help Dizfactor, as I hope it'll help me.
 
 
sleazenation
22:42 / 08.08.03
personally, i've going to wait till its over before saying how the filth was...
 
 
FinderWolf
23:30 / 08.08.03
Shit human shit human!! WHHOOOUUUPPP

Of all the animals, only human assholes ever needed stairs.

Dmitri-9 for President in 2004!
 
 
SMS
03:44 / 09.08.03
I tend to dislike stories in which I dislike all or all but one character. That's about what the Filth is for me right now. The bit about the cat stays with me, though.
 
 
PatrickMM
14:08 / 09.08.03
I've quite liked it so far, I've looked forward to each issue, and I'm really looking forward to tbe last two. I haven't read Doom Patrol, but other than The Invisibles, this will probably be my favorite GM work, depending on how it ends.

The theme it touches on that I find most interesting is how Greg still feels the same emotions regardless of whether he is a superagent, or just a regular man. And, the cat was incredible.

That said, there are some flaws, namely there is a lot of "GM speak," that I'm not always sure I quite get. I've figured out most things, but there's a lot of topics that are mentioned and aren't really explained. And, reading it in the monthly, the only character I've really gotten attached to was Greg, the others sort of blend together in the gulf between issues.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:21 / 09.08.03
I agree with everything that Flowers said except for the thing about Ned Slade being an interesting character.

In all honesty, the only thing that I've found to be worthwhile about the series are some of the covers, and maybe a couple pages here and there. That scene with the Marxist chimp dying was okay, though I had almost no investment in it.

Grant Morrison, if you're reading this: less "Big Ideas," more characters, please.
 
 
Bastard Shit Man
17:46 / 09.08.03
This isn’t going to be particularly relevant to Chesed, but one of the things I’ve been enjoying about the Filth is the way that each issue is a satisfying read. NXM, the nature of the soap-opera thing, individual issues leave me unsatisfied (esp when no Quitely artwork to fetish over). Tasty little scraps. Filth, on the other hand, is your fish supper; you’ve got 2-part stories, occasionally one-issue stories. Hi-content. Gorgeous art.

When Chris Weston took over art duties on Invisibles from Jiminez, it hit me hard. Didn’t enjoy rest of Volume 2 much at all. Everybody suddenly became ugly and tense and shrill when Weston stepped in. Ugh.

But now – Mr. Weston in the Filth – he’s like a pig in shit – it’s beautiful! Especially the “real world” stuff. The scene at the end of #3 with Dmitri and Ned in the back garden in the rain particularly stands out in my mind. The 2-page splash of the Hand “mopping” up after the Libertania incident (trying to avoid spoilers for Chesed here). Lots more.

Many people, not just on this thread, have described Filth as self-indulgent. By this I understand that they think Morrison’s just wanking about, churning out “stories” that circle and circle around the same ol’ string of personal obsessions, with little attempt to be relevant to the lives of the readers.

I respect that many people feel this way, but I really want to register the fact that Filth has been more relevant to my life, more meaningful, more moving, more deeply engaging, than any other piece of art or entertainment I’ve come across over the past couple of years. And at the same time it’s given me as much cackling buzzing fun as, say, 2 Fast 2 Furious did a few weeks ago.

Also, many of the Filth’s characters have found a place in my heart and my imagination. Cameron, and Mercury. Max Thunderstone. Secret Original. Anders Klimakks. Sharon Jones and the I-Life thingies. I’ve even developed a fondness for the superheroes in the Ink Universe.

Okay, I’m done testifying.

As far as the Qliphoth are concerned, I don’t know if this fits in to how all that works, but Filth seems to be filled with parodies, perversions, desecrations of the images of the Sephiroth. So to take your name, Chesed, as an example: the issue that corresponds to the fourth Sephirah (which I read can be symbolised by a benevolent, fatherly king), that issue features upsetting scenes of a vegetarian male ruler-figure being force-fed his murdered daughter’s flesh, another “king” being surgically given artificial breasts and then raped from behind, etc. The Merciful qualities of Chesed seem to be twisted and presented as weakness (e.g. drug-addiction) and effeminacy?
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
18:36 / 09.08.03
crazy chimps
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
18:37 / 09.08.03
Dmitri 9 rocks
 
 
--
19:08 / 09.08.03
I've been thinking about this thread quite a bit, so I guess I'll try to give my opinion in as coherent a manner as possible.

First off, is it as good as "The Invisibles"? IMO, no, but I still think its a great read.

(the characters)

"The Filth"'s biggest flaw is its lack of an interesting supporting cast. Greg Feely/Ned Slade is a great character I can really relate too, but none of the supporting cast around him is fleshed out enough to be interesting (though for some odd reason I can't place I kind of like Cameron Spector). Miami is dull, Mercury Moog is bland, Dmitri 9 is funny at first but gets one note fast (though he was pretty good last issue) etc. There are a lot of good characters who only appear briefly, like Anders. And I thought that Spartacus Hughes started off interesting (esp. in issue 7) but now that he's on the Hand's side and Max Thunderstone I find him less interesting. Maybe next issue will change my mind.

In short, what made The Invisibles such a great read was that the supporting characters were just as interesting (if not more so) then the main ones: Mr. 6, Sir Miles, and the like. Which brings me to another point: There isn't really an interesting villian for the good guys to fight (whereas the Invisibles had Sir Miles, who was a fucking great character, I thought).

Still, really like Greg Feely.

(The Story)

A lot of people here seem to knock the way the story progresses (or call it jerky) but I don't really have a problem with it. I like the idea that some of the stuff that happens seems out of sequence (for example, issue 10 seems like it should have happened before issues 9 and 11). Gives it all a hallucinatory aspect. Maybe Morrison is using cut-ups or something (am I the only one here who is reminded of Burrough's cut-up trilogy from the 60's? The Hand reminds me of Burroughs Nova Police, whose job is to capture and arrest the Nova Criminals, who are trying to cause chaos in the world by aggravating certain groups or what not)> Speaking of Burroughs, for some odd reason issue 1 of "The Filth" is 23 pages. H'mmmm....

Each month I look foward to the next issue (I don't know how you people who buy comics monthly have the patience). I'm really interested in knowing where the Crack actually is and how it came about (not to mention who Mother Dirt really is).

As for the issues themselves, I really liked the porn storyline (preferred it over the Libertania one). There have been some weak issues (issue 10 and 1 leap to mind: I still feel that issues 1 and 2 should have just been one 48 page issue: On its own issue one seems kind of lacking... I dunno). As it is, my favorite issues so far have been 3, 9 and 11.

As noted before, the series is a great Qlihoptic version of "The Invisibles". Maybe Morrison's other works too. Remember those dolphins in one of those issues of "Animal Man"? I think the dolphins in "THe Filth" are meant to be Qliphoptic versions of those, ie. diseased, violent, human hating, foul mouthed, possibly fascist even. Or maybe I'm wrong.

There's a lot of great lines too, like when that Quinn guy tells Hughes that he just spoiled a perfect world and Hughes causely replies "The world had it coming. Smug bastard." That always makes me laugh for some reason.
(Art)

One thing I like about "The Filth" over "The Invisibles" is that the art is more consistent (obviously). I think "The Invisibles" problem was that it didn't have a consistent look and that too much cooks spoiled the pot (in retrospect Volume one of the "Invisibles" artwork seems kind of lackluster, though it got better as it went along). Weston was one of my favorite artists for "The Invisibles" and he really shines here (same for the colorist guy, great neon colors and all that).

I prefer "The Filth" covers over the Invisibles covers for some reason. I've never seen comic covers that look quite like these: very sterile and clinical. Awesome.


(overall)

When I read "The Invisibles" I felt very healthy and good. As I've been reading "The Filth" I've been getting sicker and sicker these last few months, which must mean that SOMETHING'S working. In fact, my health usually seems to get worse right before each new issue gets released and, after having read that issue, the sickness/soreness/depression goes away. Which is why I hope the bloody series finishes soon!
 
 
The Natural Way
10:23 / 11.08.03
I thought I should come back and add: I DO LIKE IT. I genuinely do. I like the atmosphere (which is totally fucking unique), I like the endless, filthy ideas. I've got nothing against Morrison circling old concepts (Christ, if I did I couldn't watch most films or any TV), as long as he adds a new dimension to them - something I think the Filth provides.

I would also really like him to try getting back to *normal* stories again. But he's experimenting and that's cool.
 
 
diz
11:59 / 11.08.03
I read that Qlippoths are only the Sephira subtracted of Meaning. The Godhead without Unity is its qlippothic Hell. Understanding and Beauty without Meaning seems a bit lost on me, I can totally understand Emotion(7), Reason(8), Imagination(9), Judgment(5), The Give(4) and Inspiration(2) without Meaning make plenty of sense. Hopefully this primer might help Dizfactor, as I hope it'll help me.

it definitely does help a bit, thanks. all i really know about the Qlippoth are that they are kind of like the flipside of the Sephira - the idea of Sephira-Meaning=Qlippoth set off a light bulb. thanks.

however, i'm still totally missing the "Qlippothic journey" aspect of the Filth as a series, however. i think i may need to re-read the whole series at once when it's complete, after doing more reading on the Qlippoth and Qabala in general...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:58 / 11.08.03
Sypha Nadon A lot of people here seem to knock the way the story progresses (or call it jerky) but I don't really have a problem with it. I like the idea that some of the stuff that happens seems out of sequence (for example, issue 10 seems like it should have happened before issues 9 and 11). Gives it all a hallucinatory aspect. Maybe Morrison is using cut-ups or something.

Or maybe he's a tosser ay? Unless the last issue has Greg being fired off in a time-suit to be reunited with Tony as the eschaton comes rushing in like a big tidal wave of donkey semen 'cut-ups' don't impress me much as an excuse for crappy plotting.
 
 
finger n' thump
18:09 / 11.08.03
strange that you would think him a tosser because you do not like his plotting.
you must feel personally let down.
there there.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
20:31 / 11.08.03
Yes, oh how he spun me a pretty line all those years ago, me, an innocent ingenue straight out of university, him, the 45 brainweirds-a-second comics genius with a dead cat fixation. He promised me the world, and Rann, and the Pre-Crisis Krypton, but then, having had his way with me he tossed me aside like a tissue. I vowed then, on my parents graves that I would be avenged. The first stage of my master plan, feeling 'mildly let down' by his work, is complete! BWA-HA-HA!
 
 
finger n' thump
08:05 / 12.08.03
oh.....
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
15:19 / 12.10.03
Thought I'd try to annoy everyone by bringing this thread back from the grave now that all the issues have been released and I tried reading the entire series last night, which was something I'd resisted doing while the series was ongoing.

So.... The general overarching story of Greg versus The Filth does hang together slightly better like this, and there were all the elements of later plots introduced early (In issue 3 Greg sees the teenagers walk past his window that he meets in the last issue and heals) but there's so much that doesn't work. When the police arrest Greg one of the officers involved is Special Branch, investigating Max Thunderstone, but he's an American citizen, so if the FBI were investigating Thunderstone, wouldn't that be MI5's business to keep an eye on Feely? And we never find out exactly what Thunderstone's business is with The Filth, if humanity is programmed to ignore them (and this seems to get forgotten after issue one where everyone ignores Ned coming out of Greg's house, after which normal humans see them all the time) how did Thunderstone find out about them? And what was Greg supposed to do? Infiltrate The Filth to help Thunderstone bring them down? Infiltrate them and alert them to Thunderstone so he could fight them and be a hero? Or was he captured and 'turned' like the others? Neither Greg nor Ned remember Thunderstone, so there's the issue of whether Greg Feely was any more real than Ned.

Another massive error, the one that precipitates Ned/Greg's final breakdown and break from The Hand, is his discovery that 'Ned' is the implanted personality, not 'Greg'. Jenesis Jones (IIRC) already knows this as she says after the Anders Klimaks episode that the personality should be shifted to someone else. So, why do some people know the truth and others don't? And why should this information be so shocking that Greg goes off the deep end and Mercury blows and then kills a fictional character? Morrison writes as though the idea is something we should find shocking without bothering to explain why we should find it shocking.

What I'd forgotten is that in the first issue or two Chris Weston's art is a bit dodgy, that really does improve throughout the entire series.

The jumpcuts seem to exist purely because, just as he doesn't want to waste time explaining anything, Morrison doesn't want to explain how anybody gets from point A to point B. Issue 8 suggests that the Hand officers can teleport like their vehicles, so why does Dmitri have to keep catching cabs to Greg's house and how come the cab driver doesn't notice he's driving a talking fucking monkey? Morrison seems to run from giving meanings, Issues 9 and 13 deliberately shy away from answering the questions 'Why is the universe' and 'why is the Filth'. Oh and 'Why is the Filth run by a sentient compost heap, a Gilbert and George painting, a man in a diving suit made of breasts and a disgraced former US President with vagina's in his neck?'.

It's a shame The Filth is creator owned because there's any number of good stories in there that Morrison seemed disinclined to tell but which someone else might have had a ball with.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:58 / 12.10.03
Morrison writes as though the idea is something we should find shocking without bothering to explain why we should find it shocking.

Lovely Biscuits with pictures.

At the end of it all I felt no attachment to any of the characters, no great interest in any of the individual plot strands and no desire to go back to it to pull any meaning from the mess. Up until #11 and #12 I was prepared to forgive the complete lack of control or basic fucking storytelling ability that Morrison had been displaying in the hope that it'd at least given some kind of form and shape by the conclusion. Those two issues really finished me off - just further evidence that what the man needs more than anything else is a competent editor who's going to be able to reign him in without suffocating the ideas.

And I was enjoying it for the first few issues, too.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:28 / 12.10.03
Some of the jokes were good though, weren't they?

"Oh no, a poor little cat!"
 
 
bigsunnydavros
17:28 / 12.10.03
Yeah, the jokes were often good (in a monged, Chris Morris kinda way), and on top of that it's probably the best thing that Chris Weston has ever done. His art - while still fairly stiff and inexpressive - gave the whole thing a satisfyingly immersive quality that was preposterous and creepy in equal measure. I liked it.

Writing wise, it's messy and indulgent for sure, and it's definitely not one of Morrison's better works, but there was enough there to keep me amused - a truckload of odd concepts (albeit ones that were often thrown away before they reached fruition), a couple of excellent moments with Greg Feely, the best use of Chris Weston so far(tm) etc.

So yeah - I do like the series as a whole, though I've yet to re-read it from start to finish, so I can't really say how well it all comes together for me yet.

I'm in two minds about the jumpy narrative - on the one hand, yeah, it does leave things looking far too full of holes at points, but on the other, it was kind of viscerally effective. A sickly, fever-rhythm and all that. Dunno if that's worth the sacrifice of clarity or not though - as I said, I need to re-read the whole thing before I can really say for sure.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
19:29 / 12.10.03
To be perfectly honest with you I thought this was tedious. By the fourth issue I was making myself read it rather than actually having any inclination to do so. The pacing was fucked, the stories were confused and there were too many ideas crammed in to a space that was simply too small for them. I'd read the beginning of an issue, think to myself 'ah, finally it's going somewhere' and by the end I'd be disappointed again as Morrison introduced some over the top idea that just didn't need to be there and ended in the same place that the last issue had. Basically I thought it was shit... but the monkey was good.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
19:39 / 12.10.03
Did anyone else get the feeling, from the end, that really Greg was just a crazy old bag man?
 
 
Nick J
14:00 / 13.10.03
Seemed to me on one reading The Filth was an extrapolation of where Morrison's head's at right now (or rather, right then), with all the mess and clutter and jumble of ideas that that entails. I liked the fact it just tumbled out like an urgent load. The ending left me with more questions than answers, but that's not such a bad thing. It seemed to explore similar themes to previous work, but these are the themes that fascinate Morrison, and as such he's bound to come back to them, as most writers tend to do with the things they find interesting. I thought parts of it were better than anything else he's done. I'll read it again in one go and see what I think then.

And yeah, I think it was really just about a lonely man cracking up.
 
 
Aertho
14:38 / 13.10.03
I can't help but see the synchronicity here. As an outsider looking in on the theme of the volume and all that, perhaps the shit pacing, whack storytelling, and condensed ideas are all another aspect of The Filth? I mean, it was written about the things that drive humankind into revulsion, right? Maybe the book was DESIGNED to be a disgustingly difficult story? Maybe the magickal working was intended to get you to keep driving into the book, past the shitty and fucked bits that you're supposed to feel that way?

I could be off base, but the damn title describes exaclty what you found inside...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:19 / 13.10.03
Possibly, but if so that's right up there with the reason the movie 'eXistenZ' had a weak plot and paper-thin characters because, that's what computer games are like man...
 
 
Aertho
17:08 / 13.10.03
Haha... yeah, probably. I'm not saying there's an argument for the "greatest story ever told" is hidden under the filth of The Filth, but it's just a funny comparison to say that the The Filth is a disgusting, masturbatory, and repulsive book, because... maybe this time, it was okay to judge a book by its cover.

Cheers
 
  

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