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The death sentence

11:11 / 07.08.03

OK the rights and wrongs of capital punishment are a longstanding debate that i don't really plan to deal with in this thread, but the news that one of the Bali bombers has been sentenced to death has intrigued me... or more specifically the way in which the Australian governement has pointedly refused to appeal that the sentence should be commuted to life struck me as odd...

Doesn't a failure to ask for an alternative to the death penalty ammount to tacit approval for sentence from a country that has outlawed it?

Doesn't this run the risk of setting a precident for countries that do not have the Death Penalty any more to re-establish the sentence for 'terrorists and unauthorised combatants' such as those in Camp X-ray/Camp Delta?

Or am I over-reacting?

Tryphena Absent

11:49 / 07.08.03

I know very little about this and have absolutely no idea where the bomber comes from but I still think the Australian government is demeaning its own system by failing to object to this death penalty. The Australian Prime Minister has thrown his support behind the punishment and it would be preferable for him to remain neutral.

I don't think you're over-reacting but I find state killing abhorrent so I'm not at all objective with regards to this.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

12:07 / 07.08.03

No, I think you're absolutely right. There's a tendency in the current climate to avoid confrontation on issues like this by saying 'well, there's nothing we can do, it's happening in another country' - the spurious basis on which Camp X-Ray exists at all.

It's worth remembering, though, that although the UK doesn't have the death penalty, some Commonwealth countries still do, and the final court of arbitration is the UK's Privy Council.

Although the Privy Council has recently ruled against the death penalty (2), I'm not sure that means we no longer sanction it at all: "Lord Bingham said that, so long as the death penalty was retained, there might well be murders that deserved the ultimate penalty." Note also that this judgement refers to shooting and not necessarily to other means of execution. More up-to-date information, anyone?

Old brown-eye is back

12:09 / 07.08.03

I think asking the Australian government to plead for clemency on behalf of one of the Bali bombers is probably expecting a bit much. (That's assuming he's not Australian.) As to whether it sets a precident, we'll have to see. Have to say though, I'm not convinced - tacit approval is not the same as changing the law.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

14:37 / 07.08.03

That's a point - maybe the Australian government has no mandate to appeal this ruling.

And tacit approval is worse than changing the law, because you can appeal against a law. You can fight a law. The whole point about doing things by the back door, like Camp X-Ray, is that there's nowhere to appeal. X-Ray is not in the US, but nor, apparently, is it in Cuba, so there's no applicable appeals process. The US denies that the prisoners there are prisoners of war, so they're apparently not covered by the Geneva Convention. They will be tried by a military court in private, which is not a fair trial according to international or US law, but that doesn't matter because as long as they're in limbo the law doesn't seem to have any traction... And so on.

Tacit sucks.

Old brown-eye is back

15:18 / 07.08.03

Fine, but the question is will similar things happen elsewhere as fall out from the Bali situation, and unless a hijacked plane is flown into Big Ben or the Eiffel Tower I can't see it. I've been horrendously naive before, though.

As for the Australian government, mandate or not they wont be making a fuss about the sentence simply because - politically speaking - to do so would be a very bad idea.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

15:28 / 07.08.03

Yeah, Shifters, tacit approval is not the same as changing the law . But, as the boy Vega (in person, no less) says, it IS worse. If such things become normal (as, with my pessimistic head on, I feel likely), then the rule of law itself will start to look outdated. At which point the law will be changed, to reflect the current climate of "civilised" society.

I think, Shifters, you are being a little naive. (I'm not being patronising here, I'm being paranoid. I hope to Gods you're right and I'm wrong)

16:01 / 07.08.03

actually as far as precidents go i was thinking more of the final fate of those detained in camp X-ray, none of whom have yet been sentenced to death, but the acceptance and in some quarters delight at the death sentence in the case of the Bali bombing seems to make this event a more likely and 'acceptable' occurance.

Old brown-eye is back

18:56 / 07.08.03

Hang on. Such things (the execution of murderers - in this case a mass murderer)have been normal all over the place for a very long time. The rest of the world's acceptance of them - while morally questionable - has and does not signal an imminent shift towards adopting such practices itself. Thinking specifically of the UK, I can't see there being any major push towards reinstating the death penalty for acts of terrorism until the time that a -very major - political need for one arises. (Come to think of it, we've very definitely not been executing terrorists since the end of the 1960s. Torturing them - yes, but not executing.) Playing devil's advocate for a sec, where exactly did the connection between what I can only assume was a fair trial in Indonesia and Camp X-Ray come from anyway?

Sleaze, I'm probably being really thick but I didn't get that from what you wrote at all. (And with regard the poor bastards stuck in limbo, I think you're right - it sets a very dangerous precident.)