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Magican - Limitation or otherwise?

 
 
illmatic
09:40 / 07.08.03
I've said elsewhere I like the phrase "person interested in my own process" more the magickan. Seems more accurate and I wonder to what degree being a "magican" is a bit of egowankery? This is taken from my post in the "The Disease that is Popular Magick" thread:

Rakehell: I should probably start a thread on this but I may as well rot this one (sorry!). The various personal practices I'm doing are magickal - they certainly started off in explictly magickal traditions but they're more focused on awareness and exploring myself and what I do, than they are on changing the external world. That might change though, my lack of interest in sorcery over the last few years is probably a weak point, but anyway before I veer even more off topic...

Hermes, I'm not trying to slag off other people's labels for themselves without thought. But I do think that things like this are worth questioning. I just think there's a certain degree of glamour attached to the idea of being a "magickan" - we all want to be the kind of Dr Faustus figure controlling the universe. I wonder if this is it a shield we put up to protect ourselves, to make us feel special? Does it get in the way of self-honesty, professing vulnerableity and so on?

I've met quite a lot of occultists over the years identified heavily with being a magician and sometimes it seemed like another way of avoiding things they didn’t like about themselves or were uncomfortable with. The outsider status of the magician just seems to provide a rationale for our alienation, or a cover for feelings of inadequacy, depression or whatever.

I have a great deal of faith in say, psychotherapy, as a route to change - but it doesn’t carry the same individualistic glamour as being a magickan. On thinking about it, perhaps that’s because with therapy you have someone to challenge you and point out your blind spots – this might relate to the idea of teachers mentioned earlier in this thread. Even with the focus on chaos magick on this board people seem to talk more about sigils and servitors than the really difficult parts of it – belief shifting for instance – “ego magic” you might call it.

Any thoughts? If people want to respond to this at length we can take it to another thread.
 
 
Quantum
10:58 / 07.08.03
I think of the Tarot Magician (of course) as the persona, and that's pretty much Ego personified. In that context magic is all about Will, and imposing yours on the world, so a fat ego is de rigeur. Self-confidence and power define the magician, doubt and uncertainty are banished.
That's a very attractive prospect if people are full of doubt or feeling powerless, so becoming a 'Magician' could sometimes be "another way of avoiding things they didn’t like about themselves or were uncomfortable with." A mask to wear for yourself in a way, a bolster against the dark.
To me though that's just pretending to be a magician, but if you wear the mask long enough it becomes your face. Anyone using the magician identity as an escape will probably either start to practice, and pretty quickly realise what they're doing, or just surround themselves with the trappings of it and stand out as a pretender.

The outsider status of the magician just seems to provide a rationale for our alienation, or a cover for feelings of inadequacy, depression or whatever.
The magician as a subclass of goth? I'm not convinced, maybe there are people like that but they're more likely to primarily identify themselves with other social roles that fulfil that function and just have magic as a sideline to be spookier.

I think it depends how the magician/person interested in their own process gets to the point of calling themselves a magician. If they dive straight in and call themselves by a secret name and join a lodge or whatever, that would seem to be what you're talking about, ego bolstering. If they gradually realise what they're interested in and doing is actually magic/k, then they probably aren't using it as a mask (and likely will be reluctant to call themselves a magician).
 
 
electric monk
12:21 / 07.08.03
Good points, Quant. I think that brings us around to what one's definition of "magician" is, and of course there will be as many definitions as there will be 'Lithers in the Magic. If you're defining it as "mysterious bloke, wears a robe and smells like dead pigeon, stays in his castle stronghold all day and is the most powerful fucker whut ever wuz" then yeah there may be problems. If you define it as "person with an esoteric and varied skill set who comes in handy from time to time and is good for a laugh", then you're in pretty good shape sailor.

My personal definition is "useful person" and that seems to be enough for now. Sort of setting your parameters on "community" and deciding how best to act within that community. "What should I be prepared to handle?"

I like Alan Moore's view on it, and I'm paraphrasing like a mutha so bear with me: "If your U-bend is blocked up, you call a plumber. If there's a ghost in your house that you want to get rid of, you call a magician." Gives a real utilitarian spin to it.

I know. I mangled that quote all to hell. If someone has it close to hand, could they post is here?
 
 
Quantum
12:58 / 07.08.03
Couldn't find it but did find this while looking...
"On that birthday I stated that I had become a magician, I just made that resolution so I couldn't back out of it. Let me warn you though, you shouldn't say these things unless you know what you are really getting into." AM

It's only just occurred to me that Naming is magical in itself, so calling yourself a magician has magical repercussions that other titles or descriptions don't have.
 
 
C.Elseware
13:16 / 07.08.03
According to the Qabalah 101 book I have been reading, the purpose of climbing up the tree of life is become god/rejoin god/become indistinguishable from god. The magician takes the long way up, gaining power on the way, but ultimately the powers can become a hinderance and a temptation, and must ultimately be sacrificed. The path of the mystic is straight up the center of the tree, but quite different to the mages weaving route.

Although, extending the classic definition of magic, a magician is one who brings about change in conformance with their will.
 
 
Deadwings
14:19 / 07.08.03
I think sometimes though it's less about will to break and ego feeding and more about acquiescence to the unknown. I know that sounds weird, but in most of my successful magickal endeavors, I've simply laid a sort of groundwork and let it carry me most, if not all of the way. People identifying magery with raw ego miss a lot of the finer and less overt elements. Every really good magician I've known has had an almost zen-like level of humility when it came to their works. Grace is emphasized over brute force in nearly every tradition but chaoism. I'm just saying that it's not all ego. Most of it is simply understanding a little more about the way things work in the supercontext. And regrettably, I won't be able to reply to this thread for several days. A friend I hadn't spoken to in about a year called me yesterday with promises of cash and fun if I'd just take the time out of my busy schedule to drive him to BALTIMORE. Coincidentally, the call came roughly five minutes after I'd cleared my weekend plans for no discernable reason and found a check for a thousand dollars in the mail. Shit you not. The thing is, I find catharsis in travel, and I'd needed this. But I hadn't asked for it. It just rose up suddenly and presented itself at the most opportune moment. And that I think is the best example of what I'm on about here. Being a magician has less to do with ego and more with just surfing the universe. You let ego take over and you're trying to perform a four-dimensional triple bypass with boxing gloves on. Of course, I'm not advocating complete sacrifice of self, otherwise Elseware might call me a Mystic...
 
 
illmatic
14:28 / 07.08.03
Quantum: "The magician as a subclass of goth? I'm not convinced, maybe there are people like that but they're more likely to primarily identify themselves with other social roles that fulfil that function and just have magic as a sideline to be spookier."

Well, that comment was pretty much based on people I've met.

Deadwings - Enjoy your trip - great story.

I like this as well - "Grace is emphasized over brute force in nearly every tradition but chaoism."

Btw, I'm not trying to slag off people's personal pratice or choices here, just wanted to ask some questions.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:31 / 07.08.03
so perhaps illmatic's saying that his will is to inward change/examination/healing?

< non-magician entering the fray here, so feel free to point out major howlers...and sorry if this is offtopic. bit of an essay. >

Illmatic's original post strikes alot of chords with me, and i've often described myself thus:

"person interested in my own process"

which ties into this:

I have a great deal of faith in say, psychotherapy, as a route to change - but it doesn’t carry the same individualistic glamour as being a magickan. On thinking about it, perhaps that’s because with therapy you have someone to challenge you and point out your blind spots – this might relate to the idea of teachers mentioned earlier in this thread.

(and as i'm sure Illmatic's well aware, defining yrself in relation to 'process' is a move rooted in counselling/psychotherapeutic methods.)

As my 'toolkit' originates in some deeply personal experiences, and in pychotherapeutic training and practices, I certainly wouldn't name myself a magician...

but I wouldn't name myself as a pyschotherapist either. maybe a 'therapiser'!

buuuuut this stuff does definitely lend itself to crowleyite ego-building in the sense of the common mistaken belief that this toolkit confers 'power over' rather then 'power with', and can just as easily be abused for ego purposes.

So i'd say that there's just as much potential for getting into pyschotherapy for, if not the glamour, the aura of power... you'll meet just as many shrinks/pyschotherapists/mental health people on the external power trip, hiding from their own flaws, as you will occultists. (and I've met plenty of both. )

to tie this back ontopic,hopefully, alot of the techniques i've learnt and work with crossover with stuff that's talked about here: visualisation, guided meditation, attempting to sharpen one's awareness, often by paying attention to language, performativity, naming, personifcation (talking to one's younger/angrier self, one's angry parent, the 'empty' chair)
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:52 / 07.08.03
Deadwings: fab story and great post, enjoy your trip...

and this:

People identifying magery with raw ego miss a lot of the finer and less overt elements. Every really good magician I've known has had an almost zen-like level of humility when it came to their works. Grace is emphasized over brute force in nearly every tradition but chaoism. I'm just saying that it's not all ego. Most of it is simply understanding a little more about the way things work in the supercontext.

pinpoints excatly what I was groping towards with my witterings about pyschotherapy. (particularly the 'zen-like' thing.)

Again, people often look to make the massive,'impressive' moves and changes while ignoring or missing the tiny, almost intangible, subtle flickers that make up so much of the process.

To do this means giving up on the image of power, and allowing yourself to be subsumed under the flow of the process. As someone who's trying to do this,it's bloody hard but I'm getting occasional flickers of this kind of 'soft strength' and how much more empowering/satisfying it can be.

I think these two practices (and am generalising massively about two extremely broad churches here) also share an interesting and somewhat problematised relationship with language and textual recording/explanation, in that often what is shattering about them is very tangible in experiential terms but very difficult to put into words...
 
 
Quantum
14:59 / 07.08.03
Coincidentally, the call came roughly five minutes after I'd cleared my weekend plans for no discernable reason and found a check for a thousand dollars in the mail. Deadwings
My emphasis on coincidence, there. Subconscious magic? Whatever it was, well done and have a great time!
I agree with Deadwings that the best magicians have a zen-like humility, but a fat ego is a handy tool. "People identifying magery with raw ego miss a lot of the finer and less overt elements." That's certainly true, but you don't have to identify them as one and the same. It can be useful to have an uberconfident 'magician head' to wear when you need to be indomitable.
The attitude of submitting to the unknown and surfing the universe does seem more mystic in a way, more passive- an archetypal magician is an active, dynamic doer I think.

Bengali- Psychotherapy *is* a form of magic IMO, bringing about change in conformity with will- change in one's psyche in this case. It's no coincidence a lot of the tools are the same.
You could look at it backwards and say Magic is changing one's self, exactly like psychotherapy, then the world changes because self and world are one. Common in Alchemy, the great grandfather of psychotherapy (and chemistry).

(PS Elseware's point excellently illustrated in Promethea, the zigzag up the tree)
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:00 / 07.08.03
oh, and before I stop talking to myself I just wanted to mention a personal point specific to the barbie-context, that while i certainly wouldn't name myself as a magician, within the subject/topic-led mode of discourse the bb's promote,and the specific set-up of this one, alot of what i'm working on/with (personal process, working/living/performing as a holistic entity, bodywork etc) only really fits in here, albeit slightly uncomfortably...
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:09 / 07.08.03
You could look at it backwards and say Magic is changing one's self, exactly like psychotherapy, then the world changes because self and world are one. Common in Alchemy, the great grandfather of psychotherapy (and chemistry).

actually, that's exactly what i do think, and have often described experiences in couneslling training/practice in magical terms. was just nervous of being hexed by the 'proper' magicians.

as with magicians, there are many schools/people who'd disagree with me,but for me ,what began as random curiosity (bit of listening skills training), evolved into a career option, has now become a vocation/life path, is the way i've found of experiencing the self/world connection...
 
 
Shanghai Quasar
15:41 / 07.08.03
Surfing is not a passive activity, as anyone who rides the waves will tell you. It's all about control and maintaining your poise in the face of overpowering force, riding it and moving along its edges to reach your final destination. That's basically what a magician does.

"Going with the flow" is not the same as magic. Magic is about feeling out the flow and trying to predict where it'll take you, thereby allowing you to decide if you want to ride it out or take a chance along another route. Wait for the next wave, if you want, but the surfer lingo is hurting my brain.

As to the original question, what's good about being a magician? A greater perception of influence over events never hurts the old ego. It makes you feel like you're not so small, even if only briefly before the wave of reality washes over you, forcing the realisation that you're still tiny in the face of everything else.

The bad is that it removes some limits only to build up new, more difficult ones.

That, and you're cursed to be surrounded by funny sorts who keep trying to invite you over for a night of candles and Latin to give a go at invoking Pluto (and Mickey).
 
 
Salamander
17:21 / 07.08.03
Ego isn't a bad thing, it's when it gets in the way of being useful to your self that makes it a problem. Declaring yourself a magician is indeed a ritual of naming, and you should for sure that it is the decision you want to make, because theres no going back, thats why Crowley emphasized that we should all get out, of course the condition is that in the end you have to get out of the magician personality too. Being a shaman is by no means less ego involved, that role just has a public service ethos built in, good in the times when the local economy was no more advanced then barter, (ahh barter...), and the local shaman would depend on the goodwill of the tribe. So in perspective, declaring yourself anything really is an ego involved process, even being a buddhist monk isn't egoless, by making any declaration is to set yourself apart. Many a recent magician have been self involved ego beasts, Crowley just tops the list, but being a magician doesn't mean you have to have a monsterous ego, it just means that you have the ego on a leash, the ego being covered in leather or not I leave to the individual preferance, bu-dum-dum, ching!
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
23:29 / 07.08.03
“Being a magician has less to do with ego and more with just surfing the universe.” Deadwings.
“To do this means giving up on the image of power, and allowing yourself to be subsumed under the flow of the process.” Bengali

This is it exactly for me. You have to be willing to let go of what you want and go with what you need. For example, my job is currently on the rocks. Well, sure I’m out looking for another one. However, I’m not overly worried, because if I let it, the universe will provide me with what I need. It takes initiative to let go of it all, sure, but it works for me, and that’s what matters. Do I do other stuff? Of course! I even make sure I’m directly controlling things like rituals. But on a day to day basis, I really just allow myself to be flood and go with it. The essence of zen, as well as chaos.
 
 
rakehell
01:19 / 08.08.03
It's interesting Ill that you say:

I've met quite a lot of occultists over the years identified heavily with being a magician and sometimes it seemed like another way of avoiding things they didn’t like about themselves or were uncomfortable with.

The reason I asked you in the first place is that I've met several people who practice magick but won't call themselves magickians. This to me seems very muich like avoidance and name-game playing.

Thinking about myself, I almost never use the terms with people who know what I'm talking about, because they just know. When talking to people I don't know very well or who don't practice, I use the term magician sometimes just as the starting point to a discussion.

It's terrible the way threads can create other threads, but I guess there's a whole sub-question here about what we consider magick. Even though a lot of what I - and it seems most of us - do is about self-improvement, there are other aspects which make up what I call magick. Calling it something else, for me, sometimes is sometimes unnecessary obfuscation and sometimes shame or fear.

It actually took me quite a while to call myself magickian. Fear of being laughed at or called a loony played a big part in this delay and I wonder if other people have similar issues with the label.
 
 
illmatic
07:05 / 08.08.03
First off, hi BiP, lovely to see you back again. I don't think there's a million miles between your interests and certain aspects of "magick" really. Pretty much what I'm about really.

Following Rakehell, though there are other areas, which are explictly magickal, I suppose. I was reading Prometha last night and I thought of this thread - maybe what I'm missing is the area of imagination and inspiration, I've been using the term glamour above like it's a bad thing. I think it is sometimes - but maybe on other occasions it's a something powerfully positive. The works of Kenneth Grant spring to mind, and other systems where communicating/channeling "something" is the key foci.

Rake: I think your right there maybe an element of avoidance in my position (though I think my opening comments still stand). It's not the family/friends opinions stuff with me, it's more the "sorting the your material life out" /sorcery kind of stuff that I haven't had much success with. This is something I should look at, I think.
 
 
Quantum
08:10 / 08.08.03
At the risk of being controversial, riding the wave isn't enough. Yes, it's an essential part of magic, but the magic I'm thinking about is the metaphorical equivalent of a jetski. Power can come from within as well as without.
"if I let it, the universe will provide me with what I need" Spyder
I am less optimistic and believe the universe will provide only if I ask it to (or tell it to, if I have my magician ego on).
 
 
rakehell
08:18 / 08.08.03
Ill: Could you expand on "...it's more the "sorting the your material life out" /sorcery kind of stuff that I haven't had much success with"?
 
 
illmatic
08:53 / 08.08.03
Well, I mean stuff like practical sorcery, which I associate with sorting out your material needs and so on - getting good work, money and so on. I could say I take a magical approach to this in a way - I do subject these areas of my life to divination, try and work with my feelings and hang ups, but in terms of sheer conjuring success, haven't had much results. Haven't tried for ages to be honest, wondering if I should again.
 
 
Salamander
19:36 / 10.08.03
I agree with you up to a point Quantum, but when your on a jetski riding a wave, do you think it's the jetski propelling you forward anymore?
 
 
Quantum
09:13 / 11.08.03
It is if you're on a lake. I like the idea of self determination, and while it's fine to bend like a willow to the winds of the universe, the winds of change don't always blow in the direction you want.
That's really why I don't hold with the metaphor of magician as surfer, to me a magician persona is about control. Propelling yourself rather than being propelled.
 
 
penitentvandal
11:30 / 11.08.03
Some interesting ideas here.

Been reading some Ken Wilber lately, and he has an interesting line on the expectation we have that shamen/sages/mages/delete as preferables should be 'egoless'. To whit:

'[The] great movers and shakers were not small egos; they were, in the very best sense of the term, big egos, precisely because the ego...can and does exist alongside the soul...and the Self...To the extent these great teachers moved the gross realm, they did so with their egos, because the ego is the functional vehicle of that realm. They were not, however, identified merely with their egos (that's a narcissist); they simply found their egos plugged into a radiant Kosmic source. The great yogis, saints, and sages accomplished so much precisely because they were not timid little toadies but great big egos, plugged into the dynamic Ground and Goal of the Kosmos itself, plugged into their own higher self, alive to the pure Atman...that is one with Brahman; they opened their mouths and the world trembled, fell to its knees, and confronted its radiant God.' ('One Taste', November 17, reprinted in The Essential Ken Wilber, Shambhala Publications Inc, 1998. Italics Wilber's).

As a magician this rings more true for me than the endless bleatings I've heard from passive-aggressive little hippies about how they've 'transcended their ego' and so opted out of any confrontation with life, while punky little ol' me is still trapped in the ego and hence, of course, inferior to them...Claiming to not have an ego is the biggest, most dishonest ego trip of all.

When I started as a magician I expected to wind up like the idiot's idea of Buddha: in full lotus position all the time, blissfully relaxed, and endlessly contemplating my own arsehole in the face of all the world's problems. Seven years later I only resemble Buddha when I haven't been to the gym as much as I ought to. I drink, I smoke, I swear like a goddam sailor, I eat the flesh of dead animals, I regard women (and some men, on occassion) as little more than sex objects, and I've used magic to my own selfish little ends (though I've also used it for acts of genuine altruism and personal discovery as well). I'm generally calm and cheerful, but my depressions are harrowing purgatories of nightmare, my rages are ten-megaton emotional holocausts, and my spite is a poisoned diamond shuriken - but my joys are like Beethoven's ninth symphony with guitar accompaniment by Hendrix.

My point? In my experience magic (or whatever we want to call it) isn't about simply transcending and rejecting the ego. It's about going beyond the simple ego, the ordinary 'I' of much human experience, connecting to the godhead, and bringing that back into the domain of the ego, but with more forcefulness (and yet more grace, as well) than ever before. Transcend but include, as Wilber has it.

And, erm, that's my 2ps worth for now. More on the 'd'you think of yourself as a magician' stuff when I've thought about it.
 
  
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