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The Outsiders #1 - Slap central

 
  

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houdini
15:12 / 18.08.03

Well I'm pretty sure that the intention of the Jess Lemon pieces was to offer criticism of comics' foibles, including but not limited to their increasing introversion, as if from the POV of a new reader.

It seems to me that it takes someone with really quite a good knowledge of funnybooks to be able to target those criticisms as skillfully as "Jess" has. And by that I don't mean "target them at poor old Judd Winick," I mean "target them the the ills of the industry."

I agree with you Lawrence that it's the perception that Heidi (or whomever) is "picking on" Winick et al, and doing so while professing ignorance, that is the real bone of contention. But my reading of the articles made me feel much more strongly that the thrust of review was against the trends in comics embodied by Outsiders #1 and less against the specific creation.

Flux, I can't really stand by your "comics fans are just too stupid to get clever things" argument. Were that true then we'd have to give up on publishing The Invisibles, Promethea, From Hell, Eightball and a whole number of other titles.

Personally, I think this whole shitstorm has nothing to do with "stupidity" but rather cupidity. Denizens of the internet love "flame wars" and name-calling. They're the roadside crashes we get to rubberneck on the information superthingy. We are drawn to the salacious and the controversial.

I mean, look at how many hits this thread, and the bashing of The Ultimates, are getting here on the 'Lith as compared to the threads like "Let's talk about how great Stray Bullets is". It's in us, the desire for conflict and ... well, nastiness in general.

If I were going to criticize The Pulse (and I'm not) I think it would be for risking pandering to these innate negative tendencies of 'net denizens and manufacturing controversy.

But then I think that an honest, critical review, even from a fictional (and therefore presumably "dishonest") reviewer, is going to provoke controversy anyway. You gotta take the rough with the smooth.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:38 / 18.08.03
I don't think that everyone who reads comics is an idiot at all, but I think it would be pretty hard to deny that there are a LOT of "special" folks in the fan community and in the industry, and a lot of them are the ones who are upset about this Jess Lemon thing. I really think that trying to be clever is lost on a substantial number of people in the industry, but certainly not all of them. Christ.

I mean, look at how many hits this thread, and the bashing of The Ultimates, are getting here on the 'Lith as compared to the threads like "Let's talk about how great Stray Bullets is". It's in us, the desire for conflict and ... well, nastiness in general.

It's because it is far easy to write extemporaneously about things that you dislike rather than write out detailed essays about what they like. Most people who use the internet are just killing time, so it makes perfect sense that people would rather write something that takes less energy. I don't think it's a desire for conflict so much as laziness.

Question: If the Pulse really wanted to make a point about the accessability of comics and show how unitiated readers reacted to current issues of comics, why didn't they just get actual uninitiated readers to review the comics? They could have made a focus group of five-ten people, had them read the comic, and get their impressions. That would have been honest, and probably would have been far more revealing. Why bother with the fictional characters when that would have been far easier?
 
 
some guy
18:55 / 18.08.03
why didn't they just get actual uninitiated readers to review the comics?

Because that would risk revealing that *gasp* some uninitiated readers would have no problems with mainstream superhero comics. Just like when we all first engaged with the medium via Uncanny X-Men 183 or whatever.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:12 / 18.08.03
I think you're exactly right, Laurence. I think that there is a good chance that some folks might really it, or maybe more likely just not have much of a problem with it. I think a lot of regular folks have low expectations for the quality of superhero comics, and may be rather forgiving of a comic like The Outsiders flaws. I think that there are plenty of people who would feel the same as the Jess Lemon character, but perhaps more people would feel a benign indifference for the comic.
 
 
sleazenation
19:33 / 18.08.03
Well one way to combat what LLBIMG refers to as the shit state of comics criticism would be to actually conduct the focus group research Flux suggests, especially if it is far easier than writing an article outling those criticisms. You could even use Outsiders 1 as the comic in question and send in your results (and some elementary demographic information to show how reprisentative or otherwise your focus group actually is) to the Pulse for them to publish as a reaction against the Jess Lemon reviews. But it would probably be advisable for anyone thinking of doing this to do so under their real names.
 
 
some guy
19:35 / 18.08.03
It all gets back to context for me - this is a comic about a bunch of guys in costumes fighting monkeys. I don't think people are coming into it expecting Mrs. Dalloway, whether they're new to comics or not.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:42 / 18.08.03
What an odd comparison. Doom Patrol had a moinkey fighting a robot, for example, and it was not held up as an example of comics being more like Mrs Dalloway. Seems like a bit of a straw man argument, or rather big-nosed drowned straw women. Like Aunt Sally.

Briefly, because sleepy:

So, Heidi MacDonald doesn't know anything about the superhero genre?

I said we shouldn't make assumptions about her one way or the other

You said that a review from somebody who knew nothing about the superhero genre would be as useless as a review of an NFL match by somebody who knew nothing about American Football. This was predicated on ythe assumption that Jess Lemon was ignorant of superhero comics (and a real person, or a complete homunculus). However, since you also want Jess Lemon to be Heidi MacDonald, this analogy falls apart if Heidi MacDonald knows anything about superhero comics. I was asking whether it was the case that Heidi MacDonald knows nothing about superhero comics. If you do not know the answer, be so good as not to try to belittle the question because it problematises your doublethink. You have already made assumptions about the reviewer. Yours just happen to be self-contradictory. If you do know the answer, be so good as to share it, and we can see which of your Schrodinger's disses is correct.

Then, you attempt to argue that if Heidi MacDonald *does* know something about superhero comics, this makes her assumptions about what sonebody who did not know anything about superhero comics unsafe. This is true, but so blindingly obvious that I really didn't think it needed to be uncovered. I believe I used the term artifice what feels like three years ago.

I guess we just disagree. We see this in other markets as well.

Bad rhetoric, or bad English. If we just disagree, then you believe that we see this in other markets as well. If we do in fact see this in other markets as well, then we do not just disagree; one of us is manifestly wrong. The fact that you have yet to identify any situation in another medium in which this situation has played out in this manner is not enormously relevant either way - perhaps pop music would be a fertile ground for exempla?

It's so broad as to be useless.

It is sufficiently broad that it might be discussd in any number of ways. You have chosen, predictably, to go for the personal attack, the unsupported statement, the incoherent arguments defended with intransigence and abuse, and have succeeded, I think, in boring me comatose. For you, the thread is indeed useless, and you have prevailed by making it useless for me by depressing the Hell out of me with the standard of discussion. Ah well. Back to whether Grant Morrison could beat Alan Moore in a fight, I suppose.
 
 
some guy
00:25 / 19.08.03
I think for the sake of the thread I'll follow the advice of the several "don't feed the troll" PMs I've received about Haus since this discussion started.

Sleaze, can you elaborate on your focus group idea?
 
 
sleazenation
16:18 / 19.08.03
Hey, its not my idea, but flux's

as he outlined here (and up thread)
If the Pulse really wanted to make a point about the accessability of comics and show how unitiated readers reacted to current issues of comics, why didn't they just get actual uninitiated readers to review the comics? They could have made a focus group of five-ten people, had them read the comic, and get their impressions. That would have been honest, and probably would have been far more revealing. Why bother with the fictional characters when that would have been far easier?
 
 
Ethan Van Sciver
07:46 / 25.08.03
Or write a nice poem.

When it comes to Judd Winnick, I confess I'm a cynic
But Tom Raney rocks the whole world.
OUTSIDERS is a book that I think you should look at,
And you'll notice your toes will go curled.

Thank you.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:03 / 25.08.03
Nice poem, Ethan!! Made me chuckle. Issue 3 of THE OUTSIDERS is just OK, the only part that I thought was worthwhile to read was the 'Joker tortures Lex Luthor' bit. Raney does indeed rock the whole world - it's a shame this looks to be a pretty standard superhero book with only rare moments of inspired goodness story-wise.

That stupid robot Indigo is really annoying. As are everyone's cliche reactions to it (saying "Your reciting facts in a Spock-like manner to provide bad jokes or exposition/recap for new readers are getting old"). And come on, how many writers have already done the 'we banter and quip while we fight' self-referential comics joke?!? Winnick's GREEN LANTERN was, for the most part, better than this.
 
  

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