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When magic doesn't work

 
 
Quantum
11:54 / 04.08.03
Magical learning often comes through trial and error, finding out what works for you and what doesn't. How do you decide when something isn't a valid magical technique and is in fact crap?
It's easy just to accept anything plausible and make excuses for it if it doesn't work, but if magic is real (I think it is) then some of it works and some of it doesn't. How do you decide what's magic and what's nonsense?
For example, you discover a technique that claims to increase your personal power, try it out and it makes no noticable difference. It could be you're not doing it correctly, it could be it's not for you, or it could be that the technique is nonsense. Due to the capricious nature of the art, it is difficult to assess results, so what criteria do you apply?

Personally, I gauge any technique on 1) How I intuitively feel about it (gut instinct) 2) How well it fits into the things I already believe (internal consistency, uses known magical laws) and 3) the historical pedigree/respectability of the source.
 
 
Quantum
12:40 / 04.08.03
...and how long do you persevere at something before you decide it doesn't work?
 
 
--
13:32 / 04.08.03
Good question. For example, I've tried launching many sigils, with no results. Yet I know they've worked for many people, so I can't dismiss that theory as crap.

Maybe some people are just better at certain types of magic then others. I think the best thing you can do is find out what you're best at and apply that to magic. Which is why, as a writer, most of my rituals are being done all on paper now (results on these experiments still pending). I like collages too, so if, say, I wanted to do a spell that would help me realize my crossdressing ambitions in the near future, I'd, say, put my face on the collage, perhaps on top of a woman's body, and surround myself with images of lipstick, drag queens, Lord Fanny, etc. Cut and paste magic. This seems to work for P-Orridge quite well...

For example, if my Mother was a magician, she'd probably be able to work efficient magic through quilting (she's an excellent quilter). She could create quilt sigils or something. That would be pretty cool.

Then again, I've only been doing magic for a year and a half now, which explains my lack of success in a lot of areas. I mean, I've never evoked anything or had an out of body expeeriance and I don't know crap about meditation or yoga or what not.
 
 
*
13:38 / 04.08.03
If I'm not getting any results and I don't feel that a technique is working, I don't perservere very long. If I feel changed by the technique in some way, even if I didn't get any results that I noticed, I'll try it again, but carefully-- sometimes results aren't immediately apparent and overkill can be A Bad Thing.

But it holds pretty true for me that I usually don't get a result until I've chilled out a little, so if I don't think I've succeeded at something that's now the first thing I try-- I go into the mindset that the universe cares about me and will get me what I need, even if that's not what I thought I wanted, and then I go think about and do something else. If my work then comes through for me, it proves me right-- the universe likes me. If it doesn't, it also proves me right-- the universe has something better in mind.

This is, of course, a blatant trick of metaprogramming, but that's also magic.

I'm not at the stage yet where I have enough confidence that I can afford to shake it by thinking "That just didn't do anything." That's not a useful belief to me yet, and would affect my confidence in later work even if the technique was radically different. I choose to hold the belief that every act of magic has some effect, even if it is so miniscule (or cosmic, or seemingly unrelated) as to be unobservable. On the other hand, when I don't even have any sense of a change in my own consciousness as a result of work, I know I'm not doing something right.

Usually it is most obvious to me that something went wrong when there are observable results, they just aren't anything like I expected. This also gives me something to fix, because the anomalous result usually (not always) has some relation to the specific flaw in the work.

If a technique doesn't feel right to me, or doesn't fit with what I already believe (and my beliefs are pretty flexible, as you can see from that nonsense about the universe caring about me and wanting to give me what I want all the time), it won't be among the first few things I try. This isn't because I necessarily think the technique is nonsense, just that I'm unlikely to have any results if it doesn't fit into a system I can wrap my head around. More than historical pedigree or source credibility, I evaluate how it is presented. It probably goes without saying I've never tried anything I found in an online Booke of Ye Olde Wiccan Spelles I Mayde Uppe Laste Weeke(tm). But I don't really have any hesitation in tailoring a rote from Mage to fit my needs and beliefs, because I get the feeling from the presentation that the people who write Mage do more research than most of the people who write the BoYOWSIMULWs.

You know what, I don't really know how I decide, to tell the truth.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:57 / 04.08.03
Honey bunny, I've been a witch for years and I can't get a sigil to work for me. I've never had an Out of Body and my dreams are all over the place. My magic is totally wild and it works best that way.

I generally find that I know when I'll be able to do something- information just pops in to my head. At the moment it all seems to be Voodoo related, an instinctive mine of knowledge just appearing. It might be something to do with some witchdoctor freak pouring energy through me in February but three days ago I spotted a ritual sacrifice on TV before they attributed anything to magic at all. I've never even read a book on that form. I mean, who knew that sacrifice was something to do with swallowing bones... me apparently.

I learnt meditation and trance techniques by dumping myself straight in to shamanistic dance. It's terribly effective to lose all the reading and get on with it (in practice words get you nowhere once you know the basics. Well, in witchcraft, chaos I think is a little different and that's probably why I'm so pants at it).

So if I was you I'd just wait for it to find you. Something will come along and pinch your fingers if you're waiting for it. I rather think I'm off to learn basic Voodoo though.
 
 
illmatic
14:15 / 04.08.03
I think this is a really excellent question, Quantum, and one not often talked about often enough. I think it might be worthwhile emphasising which areas of magick that you’re talking about here – I think maybe that this question might lean more towards sorcery or anything else that’s about affecting the material world. The whole issue of “proof”. That’s the way it worked for me anyway - I wanted to believe in magick, but wasn’t sure if all was all just a big delusion, so I needed some kind of confirming experience - and a lot of internal experiences can be “explained away” as specific to personal psychology. Not that they can’t be just (if not a lot more) as profound but when you’re dabbling your feet in the water for the first time you want some convincing. Is this real or are all these books lies and the rantings of the mentally ill?

My first experiences with sigils etc didn’t work (well, at least, I think so - I’ve completely forgotten them now so they’re probably manifesting all around me) – but I think this is a really good experience because it teaches you that not everything you read in books (or on internet discussion forums) is true and in such a weird subjective field as this, your best guide is your own experience. One of the best pieces of magickal advice I’ve ever read, years ago went something like this: “In the West, we are conditioned to think that what is written in books as true, but attempting magical experiments will show you that what is written about magick is frequently very different from how it is experienced. The only solution to this is the key to all yoga and magick: think for yourself”. Simple and obvious but something you can never state too often, I think.
That opens up the whole question of whether things are “failures” or not, or whether they have simply failed to match up to our pre-conceptions. I can’t think of anything that I’ve attempted – success or failure - which matched my preconceptions. When I learnt to meditate, for instance, I eventually realised I’d being “doing it” successfully for two weeks or so, before I noticed. I was maybe looking for something more amazing and profound rather than just a bit of quiet simplicity and didn’t notice what I had.

This is why I’d always say to people go for it – the worst that can happen is it goes wrong. (And you go insane and your soul gets eaten by gibbering demons).Not to proceed blithely without caution, but to crack on and attempt things – and then assess them in the light of your experience rather than relying on someone else’s. Waiting till you’ve read all the books or know enough so you won’t fuck up is impossible and just another form of procrastination in my book.

More to say on this but I’ll shut up now.
 
 
Quantum
14:32 / 04.08.03
I'm talking less about what works and doesn't work for an individual, and what works and doesn't full stop. I know a few people who are new age suckers, whom I consider gullible fools because they believe anything they are told. They would certainly love a BoYOWSIMULW for example.

This is (IMO) a complex issue because it relates to the core beliefs of magic. Are the techniques of magic just convenient foci for our innate magic powers? (in which case it doesn't matter what you do, anything works equally well) That would seem a chaos kind of view.

Or are some techniques valid magic, and others just window dressing? That would seem a more traditional approach, that there's a right way and a wrong way to do things. (the right way depending on the tradition you listen to...)

I invent, discover, steal and copy any magical technique that floats my boat (much as Anna, some things work for me and some don't- I've never even tried to sigilise, not my cup of tea, but guided visualisation in the form of a descriptive story seems to do the same job without the wanking). So the question of discrimination becomes vital.
Let me use the analogy of diet. A traditionalist would be like a vegan or a muslim, with only certain foods permitted and others proscribed, but a postmodern self-made magician would eat anything that came to hand. I want to choose what I want to eat without having to stick rubbish in my mouth.
Back in ancient times, certain diets (magical traditions) were dicovered by trial and error by many many clever people, and they work. Discovering your own diet could be done two ways, you could eat everything and spit out the nasty stuff (reinventing the wheel so to speak) or you could work out what the underlying reasons for the good diets are, and develop your own on those principles.
I clearly favour the latter approach, but with magic you don't have tastebuds. How do you decide what's fruit, what's wood, what's McDonalds and what's poison?
(fruit=good food, wood=worthless as food, McDonalds=disguised as food poison=bad food)
 
 
Quantum
14:41 / 04.08.03
"think for yourself”. Simple and obvious but something you can never state too often, I think.
So I'll state it again :-) first rule of magic. (well, one of them)

I wanted to believe in magick, but wasn’t sure if all was all just a big delusion, so I needed some kind of confirming experience - and a lot of internal experiences can be “explained away” as specific to personal psychology illmatic
That's a universal experience I think, then after a while you get over it and accept that there *is* magic. But then you're faced with deciding what's true and what isn't, in a world where truth and falsity play hide and seek with each other. After you've discovered that some magic works, it's easy to slip into 'ALL magic works' and lose your critical faculty.

The thing is, I believe people successfully discriminate good magic from bad every day. I am interested to see if we can express the way we do this explicitly, rather than just saying 'Do what feels right', which while excellent advice isn't easy to explain.


(On a more personal note I have a horror of becoming a bland consumer of magical self help books written by californians on how to contact your inner merlin through sunbathing or some shit. I am determined to retain my ability to say 'That's rubbish', and magic is a tricky area to decide such things.)
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:34 / 04.08.03
"How to discover your inner Merlin through Sunbathing"

Class! There would probably be a market for that somewhere, you should write it.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
17:34 / 04.08.03
(Forgot to say earlier- nice topic abstract! )
 
 
*
20:02 / 04.08.03
I clearly favour the latter approach, but with magic you don't have tastebuds.

No?

Let's carry the analogy a little farther and see if we can get more use out of it before beating it to death.

Ancient people had several resources for finding out what was safe and good to eat before actually putting it into their mouths. They could watch what animals ate (observation of nature), watch or ask other humans (observation of others), develop classes of foods-- i.e. "This is a fish, and I have found other fish good to eat in the past, therefore I'll see if this fish is good to eat" (construction of classifications). Denied these, or to back them up, is the age-old smell-touch-taste-wait system (observation of the material itself). We can, and probably do, use similar strategies ourselves. Of course, the following might only apply to me, so YMMV.

Observation of nature-- we've all developed ideas of how the universe works based on our observations of the world around us. A natural magic type person would be pretty literal with this one; they derive magical laws from natural ones like the changing of the seasons and the movements of heavenly bodies. Ceremonial types use alchemy and the stars, and modern mages might pay more attention to new theories in quantum physics, but if the natural world seems to follow a principle of magic, there's good evidence that it's useful in some way.

Observation of others-- What we do here on Barbelith. And most people seem to have a built-in bullshit detector for deciding that a particular human's opinion can't be trusted-- if you were an ancient person testing out berries in the woods and another person, with pupils dilated, pallor, sweating, and a bluish tinge to the lips and tongue, claiming to see various strange things which don't fit within your worldview at all, told you a particular kind of berry was "really good", you probably wouldn't believe ta unless you were looking for a similar experience. Signs of madness or idiocy in people generally make me doubt their opinion in matters of, say, politics, and I have no problem extending that generalization to magic.

Construction of classifications-- "Sigil magic has never worked for me" is a great example. In the future, Sypha and Anna, if you come across a technique which others laud highly but which seems to use the same principles as sigil magic, you might classify it as another form of sigil magic and be reluctant to place too much emphasis on it, which in itself might render it ineffective for you.

Observation of the material itself-- This is the old trial-and-error method. You start by examining the material for obvious signs of decay, a foul smell, burning or itching on contact with the skin, etc. and only if these things are all negative, then you can touch your tongue to it and wait to see if you're ill afterward. There are certain characteristics which you can use to tell if food is likely to be poisoned, and I suspect this is now getting at what Quantum is really asking here-- what is the look-smell-touch-taste method for us?

Look-- if a magical technique is presented in a cutesy book with a title involving frogs and warts, or "guaranteed to work", or requires me to buy something from the person who's telling me about it, it looks bad to me. If it absolutely requires something I can't get, like a chalice made of the skull of a thousand-year-old Tibetan mystic, it looks bad (i.e., it's a piece of perhaps-food that I can't reach in any way, so no sense even thinking about it).

Smell-- this is looking for signs of decay. If it seems to be just blind following of a formula (like "take up a pose and chant a rhyme") without any understanding of the principles of the formula (pose distracts the rational mind and may help with gnosis; rhymes are easy to remember or can be extemporized while in trance, and may serve as a way to encrypt a desire, much like a sigil), it's probably rotten. If the principle behind the working seems to be "Do something evil enough and it'll work" or something else simplistic and probably based on bad horror films, it's probably rotten.

Touch-- I read the technique over and try some of the visualizations in isolation to see if I experience an allergic reaction. For instance I once had a bad reaction to a version of the LBRP which replaced the archangels with a male and female deity from various cultures at each quarter. I think Apollo was paired up with Pele in the south. I actually closed my eyes for a minute to see if I could see the two deities standing next to each other in balance and harmony-- instant burning sensation on contact. Not safe to eat, for me at least. This seems to be fairly personal, so I think allergic reaction is a fair analogy.

If a given technique passes look-smell-touch for me, then I can try it out in a controlled fashion. My magical tastebuds will tell me if there's something wrong-- no change in consciousness (tastes like a rock to me, bub) or a change in consciousness which feels wrong (ugh! bitter!). If that happens I probably won't expect nourishment (in the first case) or won't proceed with the ritual (second case).

Thanks for raising this issue, Quantum. You've given me a chance to examine how I look at magic in a way I usually don't pay much attention to.
 
 
Salamander
23:34 / 04.08.03
I'd have to say that results are vital, but in the end it was just another form of art for me, I usually get my Will, one way or another, usually I let occams razor handle it, synchronicity is another indicator of if it "worked", such as "it" is, in the end go with your gut, if it feels real, a little wierd (perhaps SPOOKY?), a bit of the goose bumps and all that, I think thats a good indicator something "worked".
 
 
Quantum
09:49 / 05.08.03
Some examples of my arbitrary food metaphor applied to spells;
The LBRP- this is fruit. I've never tried it but I'm sure it works and one day I probably will. How do I know? A well respected source, duplicated elsewhere, plenty of anecdotal evidence from people I respect, historical pedigree etc.
Eating Toast- this is wood. It's not magic at all, it has no 'nutritional value'. That's not to say it's not essential (you can cook on wood, you could use toast in a spell) but in itself it's not what I'm looking for.
'How to turn your ex boyfriend into a toad'- anything like this is McDonalds, rubbish disguised as food/magic. It may taste nice but it's bad for you and of no nutritional worth.
'Demonology for fun and profit'- (of course I made this up) poison, real magic that will get you into shit you can't get out of. Like snacking on Fly Agaric.

Thankfully I couldn't think of any real examples for poison, but you get my drift.

I'd have to say that results are vitalHermes Nuclear
I agree, but often it's difficult to assess results. What if you do a ritual to avert bad luck?
This leads on to another worry, superstition and Obsessive Compulsion. Say I chew my toast ten times every morning to deter bad luck. If I don't have bad luck, hey, it worked- I keep doing it. If I do get bad luck, hey, imagine if I hadn't done it... either way I superstitiously chew my toast ten times every morning, and that way lies OCD.


To radically change the metaphor, magic is music and magicians are musicians. Good music sounds right, it harmonises and is toe-tapping. We might not be able to say WHY one song is good and another bad, but we can definitely tell.
However, there are musicians who CAN tell you why one song is good and another bad, in terms of tonality, key change, tempo etc. That's what I'm aiming for here, an explanation that's explicit rather than 'what sounds good'.
 
 
Salamander
22:31 / 05.08.03
I doubt you'll be able to nail down an explicit explaination for such a subjective topic, but the fear emotion is one of my two biggest indicators.
 
 
*
03:00 / 06.08.03
Right, now I simply HAVE to try branding a sigil into toast and consuming it in order to absorb its power. I will choose another method for empowering the sigil than wankery however. Crumbs=unfortunate.
 
 
Quantum
09:28 / 06.08.03
Combine the power of Toast magic with the wisdom of Cheese and consume a sigil of ketchup, CHEESE ON TOAST MAGICK!

Seems like emotion and intuition are much better gauges of what works than any rational criteria, perhaps you're right Hermes Nuclear, maybe it's too subjective to pin down. Ah well, I'm off to invent coffee magic.
 
 
illmatic
10:11 / 06.08.03
Hmm, few random thoughts, I think a lot of things are about glamour and preconception. Quantum said above “Are the techniques of magic just convenient foci for our innate magic powers? (in which case it doesn't matter what you do, anything works equally well?” . Well, I don’t think they’re just foci – I kind of think of them as tools to help you believe, and maybe it’s the “organic belief” – deep certainty - that makes things work. Creating a context for your beliefs and the magick to work in. This is probably easier said than done and something that you just stumble into, maybe, if you stick with things for long enough.

I’ve had a number of shifting beliefs over the years – the first of which was it works, but there’s a set way of doing things, which involves symbols/gnosis etc. I was very put out when some friends of mine from the first group I was in, got really good results from simple creative visualisation. My next belief seemed to be that it works but I don't know if it works for me, which was good in a way, because it made me look at a lot of other stuff, but still limiting.

I suppose my next belief is that it will work, maybe, but it’s got to be right and “in tune”. Still puzzling that out.
 
  
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