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Pan Galactic Consciousness

09:24 / 01.08.03

(from the Religion thread in the headshop)
What if it was discovered in the future that stars in a galaxy were functionally equivalent to neurons in a brain? So that galaxies were sapient? And that these vast consciousnesses could communicate with each other by quantum entanglement (or hyperspatial communication or whatever, to subvert the speed of light delay- otherwise they'd think on a timescale of aeons) and also communicate with their constituent parts? Since we would be like microscopic beings in comparison, if they could communicate with us it might seem like a religious experience as we attempt to process it in terms we can understand. These culturally determined experiences might manifest as spirits, or angels or demons, dependant on the viewer.
Further, these galactic consciousnesses could be in their turn components of a universal mind that related to them in the same way they relate to us. That would neatly fit the idea of angels as the intermediary between god and man etc.

I thought of this myself, but I can't be the first- does anyone know who else has proposed this idea?

Or else, does anyone have any views on magic as hyperscience we cannot yet justify? It could be that in a few hundred years neuroscience and subatomic physics spawn a new discipline that explains how intent shapes the world, or the causal chain that seems like an acausal connecting priciple etc. and science justifies magic. What do you think?

11:47 / 01.08.03

I’ve had some fuzzy thoughts about relationships on micro/macro scales which seem to tie in with what you are saying. I’ll try to explain my understanding of it as best I can.

Firstly, the more I find out about how atoms and sub atomic structures work, the more sense magic makes. I haven’t had the spare time to do a load of personal research into higher physics but it’s hard enough sitting here knowing that I’m surrounded by ‘air’, made up of molecules, made up of atoms. There are no gaps, no empty space, it’s all filled up with tinier and tinier things that should be there, even if I can’t see them. The same things make up me, my body and the chemical/electrical reactions that makes thinking possible. If I think about it for long enough then it’s hard to breathe. Believing that this sort of lower common denominator exists helps to give me an interest in magic, specifically the connection between intent and effect. I can’t express this thought in scientific terms, I don’t have the right words, but it is conceivable to me that everything is directly connected.

Once I accept this logic then looking at life and the universe on a massive scale is an easier step for me. If you follow something down smaller and smaller and smaller then turn around and look behind you then the scope for huge consciousness is evident. Whether different levels of consciousness would be able to communicate on a common basis is a trickier question. I couldn’t even start to ‘talk’ to what I consider to be my constituent molecules so how could a universal mind catch my attention in a way I would understand.

12:41 / 01.08.03

"What if it was discovered in the future that stars in a galaxy were functionally equivalent to neurons in a brain? So that galaxies were sapient? "

Do you mean sentient, Quantum? That, I could undoubtedly agree with.

I have never questioned the sentience of the universe and/or galaxies or even the sentience of a grain of sand. It is a matter of frequency or rate of vibration as to how it is percieved to the human mind.

If you want to know the mind of a rock - think like a rock. If you want to know the mind of a universe - think like a universe.

So, sentient? - yes. Sapient? - I am not so sure.

The angel and devil question just stikes me as personal perception, so I do agree with that. It is an illusory projection upon a being whether the veiwer sees them as "good" or "evil" (Notice the "quotes"!). Sometimes, it is the angels we perceive as devils because of what we cling too (As explained by a brother I respect very much.)

I cannot argue with the theory of "As above, so below"

Spyder Todd 2008

13:07 / 01.08.03

As above, so below. With all things, there is a balance. It's all lies until suddenly it's all true.

I've always believed that existance itself was alive. ANd I agree with Lyra, there's always a bigger fish and there's always a smaller one too. So, I sort of look at the universe in terms of it being a biological organism, with galaxys as its cells and stars as atoms, planets are electrons, etc. So, I don't know how much this helps this thread, but I have a question that I don't think many can answer. When you listen closely, what are your atoms trying to tell you?

13:23 / 01.08.03

sentient-capable of perception and feeling
sapient- wise
An animal is sentient, self aware things (people) are sapient. I like to think if the galaxy is a conscious being then it would be self aware, as I'm thinking of it as a hyperconscious being.

I see what you're saying May, but a rock isn't like a galaxy or a brain, it's too simple to be conscious (spirits aside). I'm thinking of them as higher beings, more 'intelligent' than us, if that's applicable. (PS your brother watched Jacob's Ladder I suspect.)

Really I was thinking more about the scientific justification of magic (a pet project). Quantum physics is starting to formulate theories that are very similar to magical ideas, like the interconnectedness of all things and the principle of contagion (quantum entanglement), and the importance of the observer. I don't think science will ever show a rock to be conscious, but it might discover alien minds made of stars. (might)

Lyra- "the more I find out about how atoms and sub atomic structures work, the more sense magic makes."
Me too! I have looked quite deeply into subatomic physics (Quantum is my middle name IRL) and it just gets spookier- particles going backwards in time, mini black holes, wave/particle duality etc.
If As Above So Below is true (and I think it is) then the principles of subatomic physics will have a reflection on our scale, and bigger. In the same way spirals are found in galaxies, fingerprints and atomic nuclei, certain principles permeate all levels of the world. I think that magic uses these principles without an explicit explanation of them in rational terms, and I'm hoping that in the future science will be able to explain how magic works. That would be cool.

13:34 / 01.08.03

"When you listen closely, what are your atoms trying to tell you?"
They're not telling you anything, they're praying to you.

14:01 / 01.08.03

When you listen closely, what are your atoms trying to tell you?

I can't pay attention to the individual atoms but there is certainly a very insistant collective of molecules on my left wrist that are telling me to itch them and a minor confederation somewhere in my brain which politely requests coffee every hour. I'm a bad deity.

Quantum - Would you ever want a proper scientific theory supporting magic, one with dissertations and articles in the Guardian? If someone could sit you down and explain the mechanics of how and why magic works in the same way that they would describe gravity. Imagine if it made it into the National Curriculum.

17:02 / 02.08.03

damn religious atoms, cut it out!

17:19 / 02.08.03

I thought of this myself, but I can't be the first- does anyone know who else has proposed this idea?

Sounds like a scifi staple to me. IIRC, Olaf Stapledon had something like that going on (not in exactly the same way, but similar) in Starmaker.

11:25 / 04.08.03

Lurid- I assumed it had cropped up famously somewhere, these sorts of ideas usually have a well known version explaining them. I'm sure there are a thousand variations out there.

Quantum - Would you ever want a proper scientific theory supporting magic, one with dissertations and articles in the Guardian? (Lyra)
Yup, that would rock. If what we call 'magic' became mainstream imagine what the underground cutting edge magicians would be doing. If acceptance of magical principles became the norm, then the people pushing the envelope would be doing crazy shit we can't imagine now.
I can see the worry that it might take the magic out of magic to have it supported by science, but I'm not thinking of subjugating magic to science, rather combining the two approaches.
I have visions of using a particle accelerator as a ritual power circle to summon theoretical subatomic particles...

11:44 / 04.08.03

I have visions of using a particle accelerator as a ritual power circle to summon theoretical subatomic particles...

I find the process of thinking about magic in terms of quantum physics fascinating, but is anything really changing or progressing other than the language that we are using to describe things that we've known about and worked with for thousands of years. The techno-magus who infuses his accumulator rod with dark matter pulled through from the mirror universe, might not be doing anything too different from the hoodoo doc who traps spirits in his duppy stick – all that’s tangibly changed is the language used to describe the process. If magical work can indeed be modelled by quantum science, then do you think that the theoretical ritual you have just outlined would actually differ very much - in terms of the processes at work behind the scenes - from a standard goetic summoning?

14:50 / 04.08.03

You can't get government funding for a goetic summoning. Unless it's clandestine funding..
I'm not thinking about new types of magic (as GL says, different terminology doesn't mean different magic. Technomagick only differs in trappings from mystic, a phone is a form of telepathy etc.) but rather better science. At the moment science is stuck in a literalist world view, despite the discoveries that show the subatomic world doesn't follow our common sense rules, and I'd like to see that change. I'm not saying the scientific establishment should be less rigorous (before Lurid jumps on me), just that it could bear to be more open minded about appropriate subject matter.
So yeah, not so much magic becoming science as science studying magic.

15:51 / 04.08.03

You can't get government funding for a goetic summoning. Unless it's clandestine funding..

Point taken

So yeah, not so much magic becoming science as science studying magic.

I'm all for that. Whenever I pick up New Scientist I often find myself having to check the contributor list to make sure they haven't employed Kenneth Grant as a staff writer.

What if it was discovered in the future that stars in a galaxy were functionally equivalent to neurons in a brain?

Slightly tangential, but I was thinking about the Tree of Life the other day - specifically about the attribution of the Sephiroth to the Planets of the solar system. I had the odd notion that what if the presence of the actual physical planetary bodies in our solar system allowed us to experience the types of consciousness that they classically represent.

It's a bit of an odd sci-fi concept, but an interesting slant on Quabbala all the same, for instance - if 'Venus' were somehow physically removed from the solar system, the conscious organisms on Earth would no longer experience feelings of love and emotion, if 'Mars' were removed there would be no more war or severity. Almost considering the planets in our solar system as these cosmic batteries that produce the various frequencies common to our reality. More of an interesting metaphor than a workable theory though.

09:15 / 05.08.03

That's a wicked idea! You know the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter used to be a planet? (some people call it Vulcan) So in theory there was another Sephiroth (Sephira? What's the singular?) that was destroyed...
Pluto used to be a moon of Uranus, so you could have a story where Vulcan was destroyed in the dim and distant past, and Pluto hastily promoted to replace hir. Maybe the dawn of consciousness? If you wrote it so the gods/sephiroth/planets were interchangable (e.g. no difference between Mars, Ares and Geborah) you could phrase it as a war in the heavens, literally...