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NYC Public School for Gay, Bi, and Tran Students

 
 
Panic
19:20 / 28.07.03
This seems to be a great idea. But will it fly? Does segregating kids on the basis of sexual orientation make anymore sense that on the basis of ethnicity or religion?

In a (hopefully genuine) attempt to protect kids who might be targeting in the normal public school system, will they instead be harmed by this "separate but equal" facility?

And for the record, State Conservative Pary Chairman Mike Long is a dickweed. "Gay math" indeed. Prat.
 
 
Aertho
20:25 / 28.07.03
My boyfriend found this article and we started talking about it over the email system at work. This is the transcription of our discussion.

Him:
Now they can TEACH it!

(link to article)

******
Me:
I am highly and strongly ambivalent about this. THIS is what happens when Democrats do what they feel Democrats OUGHT to do. Yet I DO think there will be a bloody, painful Good that emerges from this event.

******
Him:
Are you Democrat bashing again?

I felt the same way when I had to vote for the Young Elvis Stamp or the Fat Elvis Stamp.

I am amazed this started back in 1984, that's pretty interesting.

******
Me:
No, it's just I think homosexual students -those lucky enough to have their distinct sexuality emerge early in puberty, actually do the human populace MORE Good by staying in the towns they're born in. It's memetic theory by way of medicinal virus.

Ridiculously staunch Democrats tend to believe that problems will be solved by eliminating external "Evil"s of society. Segregation like this, even in the "best interest" of the individual, is STILL segregation, leading EVERYONE to subliminally believe that such separation is somehow effective and "Good". Heteros and Homos will acknoweldge the conceptual "separation" with an even MORE distinct line, creating class systems and enhanced bigotry.

However, a lesson WILL be learned the hard way -that the line does not exist. Genetically, race isn't even a real thing. It's purely conceptual and a social construct -just like sexual identity. Now, you might argue till you're blue that sexuality is/can be/might be genetically influenced, but I agree on that point as well. Just like Sambo is genetically influenced to have darker melanin in his skin. But IDENTITY is the activity of choices. And I KNOW I just stepped into the whole "it's not a choice" battlefield, but I'm a fucking atom bomb.

Back in 1984, this school may have been necessary.

I'm getting worked up and angry at the world for no Good reason.

******
Him:
Ok...love ya

xoxoxo

P.s. I left my blood pressure thing at home, damn!

******
Me:
I left my soapbox at home. otherwise, I woulda gone on longer.

xoxoxox

******
Him:
Funny boy....I don't wanna get you worked up, least not here. But I do see where you are coming from. It reminded me of Claude and his favorite Birmingham Bar - it is so exclusive - which means it excludes certain people based on looks or interpretation of stature or income level. I would be insulted to think they wanted me there to show how accepting they are of "Arabs" and other minority's.

We are all pink on the inside.



******
Me:
Actually, I didn't get worked up... I've been fuzzy-headed all day, and that was the first time I felt focused in a while. Yay for percieved social injustice!

Exactly right about Claude. I mean, take the invisible Assyrians for an example. I'm sure they percieve me just being buddy-nice to Vana as a social Evil. They're a highly self-alienated group, why not give THEM a separate school/country/culture? Because they're not "different", they're just archaic and small-minded. And the answer to that isn't separation, it's MORE integration.

And the only way to get to the pink in us is to cut away the other colors. So now you know why I think it'll be a bloody, painful mess.
 
 
w1rebaby
22:15 / 28.07.03
My first thought was "it's a cop-out". Instead of tackling homophobia in schools directly, the thought behind it assumes it's undefeatable.

My second thought was, how gay do you have to be? Is there an entrance exam? People can be persistently bullied with homophobic insults at school without being gay.

From my recollection of school, the two major things to bully people about were (a) being poor and (b) being gay. If you didn't have the right clothes, you were poor and a pikey. If you weren't a lad, had girl friends who weren't girlfriends, or liked poetry and didn't like sports, you were a battyman. It had nothing to do with actually fancying people of the same gender. I have no idea whether the boys who were called "queer" all the way through school were actually gay, I suspect there was very little correlation.

Maybe they should just concentrate on setting up a school where nobody is bullied for any reason.
 
 
Slim
00:59 / 29.07.03
Yes, we all know how well "separate but equal" worked out. I think it's an idiotic idea but that's okay there are lots of stupid things in the world. I just don't like the idea of public funds going to such a school. Private academy? Fine. Public school? No. The previous poster is right; schools should focus on how to make things safer for gay students, not separate them.
 
 
Tamayyurt
01:44 / 29.07.03
I think this is completely wrong, for all the reasons stated by fragemignet
 
 
pixilated
16:39 / 29.07.03
i agree, slim... "separate but equal" doesn't cut it; on the other hand, "separate but superior" might. the rationale would be that it’s not about separating them out – it’s about them coming together and being in a position powerful enough to exclude others; not to shield or protect, but to nurture and empower, etc. etc. certainly doesn’t mean that it’s the right school for *everyone*, and it shouldn’t be used as a panacea for dealing with homophobia in schools. but some would argue that such an empowering environment can help *some* individuals excel.

out of curiosity, is there anyone here who supports single-sex education? but not this?

that said, as slim already pointed out, it’s public funds we’re talking about… and “superior” sure as hell won’t happen so long as it’s public funds going that way.

but now that you mention it -- eschewing a “let the market decide” mentality for the moment, what would people think of a *private* institution? still a bad idea?
 
 
Linus Dunce
18:29 / 29.07.03
Would it be empowering to attend this school? Maybe until the student hits the real, unsegregated world ...
 
 
SMS
21:46 / 29.07.03
what would people think of a *private* institution? still a bad idea?

It sounds from the article that this school will prohibit enrollment by heterosexuals on the basis that they bully homosexuals. Does anyone suppose that there are no gay bullies?

Private institutions should have the right to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation, I suppose, but it would also seem a moral duty to boycott most such institutions. So, yes, it is still a bad idea, but one that people are free to have and execute.
 
 
alas
14:41 / 30.07.03
wrt: out of curiosity, is there anyone here who supports single-sex education? but not this? . . .
and Would it be empowering to attend this school? Maybe until the student hits the real, unsegregated world ...

I think single-sex education has a distinct place in the world; my children are enrolled in a single-sex school. I'm undecided about this particular school (although as I wrote the following, I became more and more positive about it), but my first reaction is that I see little harm in it, and some genuine good is a real possibility. It's an experiment, first off: it's not going to take all gay kids out of all schools. Not even close.

So, I don't think its a democratic trying to make a perfect society by segregation (which makes no sense to me, as democrats were the staunchest supporters of bussing, which Republicans cried foul about). My question: Why NOT create a gay-dominant island in a hetero-dominant world--always _always_ with the awareness that it is but an island (no one will forget that, not in this country)? Is it possible that such an island may be a place where that group can get beyond simply defending their identity and explore more deeply human sexuality, from an angle unavailable other places, which will for the foreseeable future be hetero dominant, with the exception of a few bars and bathouses here and there?

Could such a distinct environment, devoted to education, create new "memes" that will come out to the rest of us--memes unlikely to be created in heterodominant environments and/or bars & bathouses? To say nothing of the fact that it may, in fact, help nurture strong gay adult leaders, because they haven't been forced to think about defending their identity during those 6 hrs a day during their formative years, and who can then help make the world safer for the others?

We all need nurturing environments in order to be strong enough to face the "real, unsegregated world." The wealthiest amongst us are probably the only minority that has the choice of never really dealing with that unsegregated world, i.e., in terms of wealth: they can manage their lives so that they never have to be around poor people who aren't in a state of economic dependence upon them (e.g., domestics, gardeners, etc.)

Other minority groups live in the dragon's mouth. In the case of gay kids, or kids perceived as gay, they may have no "safe house" in which to get strong enough, and have a sense of having allies.

This sense of having allies, of having a 'safe house' is invisible to many people in majority groups, who can't see their own dependence on a network in this "real, unsegregated world," that validates their existence on some level. So, when other groups say, "You know what, we need a space where the dominant group is not welcome," the majority starts shouting about reverse discrimination and/or making disparaging comments implying that the minority group is being namby-pamby victims who need to be tested by a fire that those in the dominant group never actually have to face...

(I did bring my soap box today, obviously. Now whale away at me . . .)

So while I don't think we should cling too tightly to group identities, which do become calcified and troublesome, I am not so willing to just say this is all bollocks.
 
 
Tamayyurt
15:34 / 30.07.03
Someone's going to mention it so it might as well be me. I'm seeing a real life parallel between this and Xavier's School.
 
 
passer
15:41 / 30.07.03
I’d like to make a moment to both applaud alas and complain about being beaten to the punch.

I can’t really compare this to separate but equal. This school is voluntary. I didn’t get the sense that they would exclude students based on sexual orientation, merely that the school is geared toward creating a secure environment for gay students. It seems to be a closer comparison with women’s colleges and traditionally black colleges. And on a side note, the most glaring problem with separate but equal was the fact that it was merely separate. In my inflammatory opinion, separate but equal and communism have a lot in common in that they’re both ideas that look good on paper, but end up being fundamentally fucked in large real world applications.

I’d love to rail against this as segregation blah, blah, blah. And one day I hope to be able to look at reality and say with a straight face that segregation is universally unnecessary, but the reality of high school life at the moment is that is generally unsafe to be openly gay. I think an island as alas puts it is healthy option for some students. As much as people want to decry the creation of an unreal environment, I highly doubt that any student who decides to enroll in this school will manage to forget the hetero-normative society they live in.

The big question I have is what it the parental parental role at the school? Will students require parental permission to attend? If so, it seems the school will be unable to reach the students most in need of this kind of support.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
19:26 / 30.07.03
I'm not clear on American school ages, but high school, the entry age is somewhere between 11 and 13 right? How many kids are sure they're gay at that age, and how many parents will be willing to accept they are and send them off to this school? And how will the school ensure their kids are all queer, will it be like some of the gay clubs a decade back, make the students kiss the bouncer/headmaster to prove it? And how many kids that aren't being actively bullied at the current time will think 'right, I'm upping sticks and going to this new school'?

Ethics aside, I can see loads of problems with getting this to work.
 
 
*
21:46 / 30.07.03
High school (grade 9) usually starts at 14-15.
 
 
Salamander
22:14 / 30.07.03
This is a bad idea, segregation is not going to make things better, though I agree with impulsivelad, gay people do have superpowers. Putting these kids in this school is going to shelter them from reality, they live in a dangerous world and they are in possesion of one more reason people will want to deliver violence on them, and heterosexuals will grow up becoming more bigoted and tribal concerning homosexuals. This is really an issue of school violence, in that in american society at least, people that don't fall into the 1% elite usually get hammered, gays, geeks, nerds, stoners in some southern states, in a utshell anyone not belonging to the popular crowd. Our schools are made to reinforce the violent behaviour, since being brutalized early in life is essential to being brutalized later by the leaders. We shouldn't be segregating, we should be changing our approach to schooling in general, Maybe with teachers not waiting till someone breaks out the shotgun to intervene in interstudent conflicts.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
03:07 / 31.07.03
Quite aside from the whole 'segregation' argument, which at its most extreme begins to sound like a complaint of heterosexual oppression, has anyone realised that this thread engages entirely with 'gay' students to the complete exclusion of transness?

Flowers, lots of people know they're either gay or trans when they're very young. Lots of people are sexually active as adolescents. Lots of transfolk know from an early age that they['re trans, and more and more are expressing that (and getting it 'treated') as teenagers.

Myself, I have no faith in the politics of community which might make people think a queer/trans school would be all shiny happy moments. But I also know that violence (*not* just 'bullying', hello) against trans kids and queer kids is huge in high school. There is a huge difference between nerds, geeks and anyone not on the football team being called 'fag' as an epithet, and queer kids getting beaten up for being out at school. A bit of freedom to be what you are might be a good thing.
 
 
*
03:35 / 31.07.03
I would have loved to have gone to a school like this, quite apart from the fact that I didn't know ANYTHING about myself till I was in my early twenties (maybe I'd have figured it out faster).

Mister Disco, you have some very excellent points. My concern is still that in viewing this as the solution, less emphasis will be placed on teaching tolerance in regular schools. Only kids with supportive parents will get to go to this school, and some of the worst violence and psychological trauma can come from a child's parents.

Teaching tolerance programs at a wide variety of public schools, to me, seems to be the better answer. Training for teachers and staff in detecting, preventing, and addressing violence targeted at gays, trans, blacks, asians, hispanics, French kids, whatever. Openly having the attitude that violence against anyone is wrong, regardless of who they are, and not caving to far-right pressures which claim that teaching tolerance is EEEEVIL and of the DEVIL and will make all our children BURN IN HELL or some such.

I'm happy to watch and see how this school turns out. But I don't want to focus on this as "the solution" to the exclusion of the other things which need to be done.
 
  
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