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Questioning Desire

 
 
illmatic
09:56 / 22.07.03
Following on from this recent thread (and maybe this one) I’d like to ask what people’ thought are on the questioning and renunciation of desires. Magick is often talked about as if it’s a tool (cf. Nick’s quote in the thread linked above about the “cheat codes to the world” and Peter Caroll’s work) and all you have to do is apply it, the same way you’d apply a spade, digging up the garden, and it works. I’ve read a few explanations of magick that also buy into this view ie. it’s a simple psychological mechanism and sigil/symbol + gnosis + forgetting = realisation of desire. Is this true? Is it relevant?

My criticism of this would be surely it seems to bleach out some of the subtleties, the mystery and romance. It seems to gets rid of the possibility of wider engagement with the world, a different relationship than “getting what we want”. This seems very much a “consumerist” model of magick, possibly. The crasser values of our society seeping in.

I’ve always thought one of most interesting things (and the most difficult) about sigilisation is the forgetting part – this seems to me part of the beauty of the system. Giving up in order to gain, “a great saving for a total spending” I think Spare says. Sooooo - to what degree and people here interested in questioning and examining their desires, and the attitudes that underpin them? And viewing some of your desires, passions and demons as the objects of the work itself – ie. to be subject to questioning and change, rather than simply realised?
 
 
illmatic
09:59 / 22.07.03
Please reply to this thread. Put in a request ofr this one to be deleted. The thread I was trying to link to was the "pick and mix" thread. I really start to need using that previw button.
 
 
cusm
16:26 / 22.07.03
Sigil magick, one must recall, is only one sort of magick: sorcery. It is, in essence, casting a spell for an effect. As you point out, it is a very narrow segment of the whole. It strips away all of the mystical experience that makes life such a colorful place to live in once you've come into your own in a magickal paradigm. There are certainly other ways to go about it. Sigil sorcery is just the most direct.

But as for desire, I've found that consisently in my life, I can't get what I most want unless I trick myself into not really wanting it first. "Lust For Results" comes into play for me in a big way. I think it is in part because I have gone so much into the mystical experience where so much of my life is magickal to me that I am unconsciously working sorcery all the time. So, I've had to learn to not want things in order to get them, which is a huge pain in the ass sometimes. It has caused me to get along pretty well with Buddhist and similar eastern ideas of conquering desire, so I suppose its not all bad. Though it might also just be cause I'm a Pisces too, and am just wired backwards that way. My wife, she wants things bad enough, things happen and she gets them. Me, I have to do mental gymnastics. It can be quite annoying at times.
 
 
gravitybitch
00:40 / 23.07.03
I find that I tend to examine my motivations and desires whether or not I'm planning on basing a magickal working on said desirs and motivations. I don't know if that means I'm living as a magickian 24/7 or if I'm just obsessive...

On a more serious note, I don't think that you work with something as simple as "Forget it and it will happen" when you charge a sigil. The "lust of result" can be damaging to intent of Will, if only because Lust is characterized as being a sort of passion that overwhelms better judgement...

Now, it may be time to look at the purple prose sprung from the bosom of Repression and see if Desire can truthfully be harnessed to Will and Intent (or if Desire really is such an evil temptress that the slightest flirt will suborn your working).

In any event, I think that looking at what you desire and why, and how it might or might not fit into the life you have/are trying to build is a really good thing to do.
 
 
illmatic
07:56 / 24.07.03
I thought this quote was relevant:

We humans have the capacity to create ever more elaborate products and services. We believe in their (our) promise that they will eventually satisfy our desire once and for all. Yet, elusively, they never do. As the psychoanalyst, Jacques Lacan, pointed out, no sooner do we possess our fantastical object of desire than the fantasy dissipates and it becomes an ordinary object again. The spell is broken, and desire passes on to a new object.

From this essay

This process is certainly something that I've observed in myself, I think it's a significant part of the fuel of our consumer culture, though I've also observed the same process at work with regards to more intangible desires - the urge to communicate with a certain person, for instace - they've become the "libidinal object", I suppose.

Izabelle - I tend to find I'm always plucking apart my desires, just to see what's really there, once I get past the convulted knots I've tied myself into. Tends to be quite simple things as well. I think this self-awareness is a really powerful asset. I try to get a feel for what's right for me at the moment from the I Ching, which to paraphrase something I read this weekend is simply "64 different ways of saying, 'be patient you idiot' ".

Would anyone like to comment on what they find themselves desiring and why? I do think beneath the tangle of consumer culture we do have quite simple needs - love, sex and affection, satisfying work, feelings of progression. "Love, work and knowledge are the wellsprings of our life. They should also govern it" as Wilhelm Reich said. Obviously these are tough things to realise in themselves - I'm sure we all tied ourselves in knots over love and work relationships at one time or another. Reminds me of Dave Lee's contention that there are only 4 areas for sorcery anyway - healing, wealth, love and power.

Any comments?
 
 
Eron
00:51 / 25.07.03
"To what degree are people here interested in questioning and examining their desires, and the attitudes that underpin them? And viewing some of your desires, passions and demons as the objects of the work itself – ie. to be subject to questioning and change, rather than simply realised?"

Wow Illmatic, you're asking good questions. I'm achieving goals I desired over 5 years ago and I want to say: Thank fuck I didn't get what I wanted! My biggest desire was to stop worrying. I sigilized and positive affirmationed the hell out of it! My breakthrough came as I realised I had to learn something through the process of working through this block. Magick (dancing for me) has helped me cope while I'm going through this transition.

This is the coolest magic quote that sums it up for me, from the coolest lama of them all...

"When we draw the power and depth of vastness into a single perception then we are discovering and invoking magic...the discovery of primordial wisdom in the world as it is." Chogyam Trungpa.

Now if only I can make a girl fall madly in love with me
 
 
Quantum
09:51 / 25.07.03
Personally I think one of magic's strengths is to allow you to manipulate your own desires.
(Philosophy sidebar- first order desires are things like 'I want a cigarette', second order desires are things like 'I want to not want a cigarette', desires about desires. Of course 'I want to want to give up wanting to smoke' is fourth order, and there is no end to the orders, you could have a seventh order desire if your brain were twisted enough.)
Magic is a way of empowering your more 'meta' desires so they have a chance against your more powerful fundamental desires. Do a working to help you stop smoking, it gives your second order desire more power to overcome your first order desire for a fag.
Less simplistically, it's great for things like 'I want to attract happiness' or 'let me stop being paranoid', higher order desires that affect whole complexes of lower order desires.

Can we be free from desire? I know the Buddhists say we can, but isn't that a desire to be free from desire?
Without desires we would have no motivation, we would do nothing. Desire is the fire that keeps us moving, trying to do things, IMO we could no more live without it than without beliefs.

I agree with Illmatic's suspicion of consumerist magic, I think to use magick to get laid (for example) is like using a computer as a doorstop. It'll do the job, but that's not all it can do, it seems a waste if you ask me. First order desires are easy to fulfil without magic, banishing those desires might not be so easy.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:50 / 25.07.03
I think to use magick to get laid (for example) is like using a computer as a doorstop. It'll do the job, but that's not all it can do, it seems a waste if you ask me.

With all due respect, bollocks is it a waste. For me, magic is all about getting things done here and now for both myself and those around me. A good argument can be made that 'spiritual enlightenment' - whatever that means - can be found through the process of directly engaging with your environment at a magical level, just as easily as it can through spending 10 hours+ a week blissed out in meditation trying to become some highly subjective perfected being.

Time spent fretting over whether your desires are valid or relevant or worthwhile, is time that could be far more productively spent enjoying and experiencing the realisation of those desires - for better or worse. I often find that if it's simply not the right time for something to come through - then the magic might not work out as planned anyway. Or if does work, and I later discover that the result was not what I wanted after all, then the experience of going through whatever fallout occurs is valuable on its own terms. At the very least you will have acted, experienced, learned something about yourself, and grown through the process.

I'm happy to be convinced otherwise, but that's how I currently see it.
 
 
illmatic
13:39 / 25.07.03
Good! An argument! Depends on how it’s used, and what you’re getting out of you’re wider involvement with magick, I think. If the sole purpose of what your doing is just to “get” things and these things are the same unquestioning what’s held up as desirable by society, be that a nice car or buxom women, I think it is a waste – why the fuck do you want these things anyway? Why are you so sure they’ll make you happy? In my experience, when I’ve got relationships on the go, when I’ve been really desperate, and I’ve finally copped off with someone, that same desperation has caused me to chronically screw things up. My get out clause here is that for most occultists I know, it isn’t just about “getting stuff “it’s about something broader that adds some degree of depth and meaning to their lives – this is what’ve I’ve been trying to get at in this thread, to broaden the discussion a little, beyond say, sorcery, to the reasons behind this. Experience and growth, as you say in your post. From what I know of you, Gypsy, I’d say that your stuff works for you ‘cos it’s involved in a wider context of belief and creativity – it isn’t just about getting a shag, is it?

I like Quantum’s point about hierarchies of desire for this reason. Sure this fits in somewhere.

As to the whole “enlightenment” thing, well, I’ll believe it when I see it. What I like about Choygam Trungpa (nice quote, Eron) is that he devotes his most of his books to thoroughly junking this notion – I read him as saying that this idealised future projection is one of the major blocks to any kind of self-awareness and growth. Well he says a lot more besides but I’ll leave it at that for now, because my brain is tiny, adn I'mdoing him a big dis-service.

I agree with you that any attainment or “enlightenment” or whatever shouldn’t be equated with a fugue-like retreat from the world. I don't see most of the buddhist writing I've read as saying this - it seem sto be speaking more to me about recognising our attachments and clinging, and freeing ourselves from this if we can.
 
 
Quantum
13:54 / 25.07.03
I think it's just my cautious approach to magic that informs my opinion. I don't use it (much) for day to day stuff because I don't need to, it's not apropriate. Say I want a shag, I'd go out and chat someone up. Why use magic? Where's the need? If you want to light a candle, don't perform an elaborate ritual to ignite it, use a match.

Just goes to show everyone has a different relationship with magic- some people involve it in their everyday lives and immerse themselves in it, some of us keep it in a box for special occasions, there are as many relations to magic as there are magicians.

Back to desire-
I agree with you that any attainment or “enlightenment” or whatever shouldn’t be equated with a fugue-like retreat from the world.
Yeah, that's my problem with the idea of freeing yourself from desire as though it were somehow constricting. An enlightened person to me wanders around with a smile on their face, has fun with life and a sense of humour, merry is probably the adjective I'd use. Someone who enjoys the world, warts and all, accepting their desires instead of rejecting them. (Not to say a hedonist is enlightened)

Time spent fretting over whether your desires are valid or relevant or worthwhile, is time that could be far more productively spent enjoying and experiencing the realisation of those desires - for better or worse GL
Couldn't agree more, but you can't just act on whim. I see myself in one sense as a zoo of conflicting desires each trying to clamour for my attention like a class of noisy children or a swarm of irritating pixies- you have to decide who to listen to and who to ignore. You can use magic to control them, swat some, cultivate others, cage a gang of similar ones (e.g. destructive urges) etc.
Or perhaps a garden of desires is a better metaphor- Magic helps you cultivate your garden of desires, weed out the bad ones and encourage the good. If you're not a gardener you're living in a jungle, and your desires control you instead of vice versa.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
19:23 / 25.07.03
If the sole purpose of what your doing is just to “get” things and these things are the same unquestioning what’s held up as desirable by society, be that a nice car or buxom women, I think it is a waste – why the fuck do you want these things anyway? Why are you so sure they’ll make you happy?

I agree with you on this – but that’s not the only approach to results sorcery is it. I always think long and hard before I do something big in the sphere of magic, but the more you work sorcery the more you get a feel for what does and does not require a bit of non-worldly intervention. You have to know where you stand in relation to sorcery, there are all manner of pitfalls to be found if you’re operating in certain territories, which means knowing what you’re prepared to take a risk on. You don’t get a good grasp on that without looking very closely at yourself and trying to discover as best you can what it is that you want and what it is that’s important to you.

I think it’s quite a Thelemic process in a way. By doing your Thelemic ‘True Will’ you’re helping what I’d call the universal process to grow in its natural direction, but occasionally imbalances in the system will need to be corrected and that’s where sorcery comes in. Not everybody is doing their True Will, and you’re probably only doing your own True Will at about 20%, so stars collide. The sorcery irons out some of the creases in the process, which otherwise might take longer to right themselves. Through the process of using sorcery, you learn when and when not to use it. In exactly the same way that by learning a martial art you get a much better feel for when physical intervention is and is not required in a given situation. If you don’t use sorcery for anything you’re not really going to develop this instinct, and therefore won’t get the chance to learn from whatever mistakes you make along the way. A lot of the really important stuff that I feel I’ve learned about magic over the years has come about by fucking things up spectacularly and then having to deal with whatever happens in a creative way. By not engaging with sorcery and related practices you’re not fully opening yourself to this kind of process, which I feel is as valid as any other approach.

From what I know of you, Gypsy, I’d say that your stuff works for you ‘cos it’s involved in a wider context of belief and creativity – it isn’t just about getting a shag, is it?

Right now, it’s all about putting a curse on my upstairs neighbours stereo equipment. But yeah, it exists within a wider framework. If I were to write a book on sorcery I might call it ‘There’s no such thing as a free lunch’.

I agree with you that any attainment or “enlightenment” or whatever shouldn’t be equated with a fugue-like retreat from the world. I don't see most of the Buddhist writing I've read as saying this - it seem to be speaking more to me about recognising our attachments and clinging, and freeing ourselves from this if we can.

I started reading a book the other day called ‘What the Buddha Taught’ by some geezer called Walpola Sri Rahula. It draws on the texts recording words spoken by The Buddha in order to give an account of the principles of the Buddhist doctrine. I’m enjoying trying to interpret my own current position on various things in terms of the Buddhist perspective. Certain aspects seem – on the surface of things – to be in direct opposition to where I would situate some my own thinking. So it’s an interesting process trying to integrate some of that and see if any synthesis of ideas forms.

I don't use it (much) for day to day stuff because I don't need to, it's not apropriate. Say I want a shag, I'd go out and chat someone up. Why use magic? Where's the need? If you want to light a candle, don't perform an elaborate ritual to ignite it, use a match.

If I wanted to turn on the lights, I’d use the switch. If I wanted a curry, I would go to the curry house. But if I wanted to twat someone at work, I would get arrested. Sorcery comes in handy in many diverse situations. But it always requires thought, if you don’t give it any thought you’re not treating it with respect. If you don’t give these things respect, then the power of it is cheapened, and more pertinently, weakened as a result.

Just goes to show everyone has a different relationship with magic- some people involve it in their everyday lives and immerse themselves in it, some of us keep it in a box for special occasions, there are as many relations to magic as there are magicians.

I totally agree with this. Most of the time when I’m arguing on Barbelith I’m looking for someone to point out any holes in the way I’m formulating things – there are so many ways of approaching the collection of ideas and methodologies labelled as ‘the occult’ that I think you can never really be sure that the things you feel to be right aren’t slightly off the mark when viewed from a perspective that you haven’t yet considered. I find that instigating good-natured arguments on barbelith is a really effective way of water testing theories that I feel are plausible, so the more constructive criticism I get the better.

Or perhaps a garden of desires is a better metaphor- Magic helps you cultivate your garden of desires, weed out the bad ones and encourage the good. If you're not a gardener you're living in a jungle, and your desires control you instead of vice versa.

That’s a brilliant metaphor for the magical process. I’d say that learning how to instinctively identify the various needs and desires that require sorcery, in order for them to be cultivated and come into full bloom, is one of the key skills that a magician requires in order to be really effective. A bit like knowing when a plant needs fertiliser poured on it. Perhaps that’s not the best metaphor, I should probably leave the metaphors to you.
 
 
Seth
08:38 / 26.07.03
But if I wanted to twat someone at work, I would get arrested.

Absolutely. Magick is just the ultimate for fucking people over. It's like punching someone in the back of the neck then running before they sort themselves out, or leaving a turd in a flaming bag on someone's doorstep and giggling from a distance. Now I'm off to wander round my flat in my pants calling down ancient spirits of evil on my enemies, like Mum-Ra out of Thundercats...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:55 / 26.07.03
Absolutely. Magick is just the ultimate for fucking people over...Now I'm off to wander round my flat in my pants calling down ancient spirits of evil on my enemies, like Mum-Ra out of Thundercats...

I admit I was being flippant in order to bluntly illustrate a point.

However, to stick with the example of sorcery in the workplace - if someone is in a position of power within an organisation and is blatantly abusing that power in such a way that it's causing significant day-to-day problems for both you and those around you - reducing people to tears on a regular basis and suchlike - there aren't a great deal of options left open to you. You might very well be so angry that you want to chin them, but that would get you arrested; you might consider issuing a formal complaint, but depending on the power and influence of the person, that could make things even worse.

In such situations, the use of carefully considered sorcery to intervene and sort this kind of power game bullshit out is a perfectly reasonable response. In the heat of the moment you may want to 'call down ancient spirits of evil' on the person whose causing you problems, but as I was trying - and seemingly failing - to make clear in my previous post, there are always consequences to your actions in this field. There is no such thing as a free lunch. You have to respect what you are doing and take responsibility for the results.

In most cases such as this, it's often far more appropriate to apply some form of binding pressure or to do something that results in said person leaving the company and ceasing to be such a problem. An analogy can be made again with martial arts - a kung fu expert may be able to seriously injure someone in a fight, but the beery guy in the pub that's causing him some agro might only require his arm twisted a bit for him to stop being such a nuisance. Sorcery, martial arts, or any comparable skill requires respect and responsibility in its usage.

If you strongly disagree with me on any of this, then I'm more than willing to listen if you present me with a plausible counter-argument.
 
 
Theteal
12:56 / 26.07.03
This is an interesting discussion. What comes to mind for me is that rather an important question is - as well as what order of desire you're focused on - what is the real purpose of that desire? Which, in turn, raises the question of what order of yourself is generating it? Isn't magic something about wending our way to finding each of our unique roles in the bigger whole whose trajectory is to find conscious expression of itself through those parts of it which are us? Ormaybe it's about getting and doing what we want instead.
 
 
Papess
17:39 / 26.07.03
Very good topic Illmatic.

Coming from tantrik perspective, desire can be a useful tool to liberation - the desire to consume desire. However, this can lead to a certain sort of oblivion, the void, if you will. It is death, truly.

This is where a re-arising of ourselves with illuminated mindstate is imperative. For example, if we stay in the void (remain in dissolution), who will look after our children or care for those who cannot care for themselves or help those who who are lost in delusion, (a "desire" of the bodhisattva)?

Some desire is an end to desire in itself...that brings us back to the void. Then again seeing as we are all buddhas already, (as all time is happening all at once), and the high tantras state that we are already enlightened (but without the full vision of time, we are unable to comprehend our true, fully enlightened nature) all our actions are that of a completely enlightened buddha and our desires ultimately are the enlightened desires of a buddha.

So, desire is not an obstacle if seen from outside space and time (or death as it is called quite frequently), but it is perfect unto itself....ultimately.

I know people will argue that this seems like a carte-blanche to do whatever one pleases, and to that I say...uhm, perhaps. Truly though, it depends how long one wants to wait until they wake up as to how they uses their desires.

Om Maha Kali Ma
 
 
Seth
11:04 / 27.07.03
Gypsy Lantern: Nah, s'ok mate. I regretted that post later in the day - I know that you're much more considered in your approach than that. It was a wee bit of a cheap shot. Apologies.

Nice post in response, though.
 
 
illmatic
13:01 / 28.07.03
Isn't magic something about wending our way to finding each of our unique roles in the bigger whole whose trajectory is to find conscious expression of itself through those parts of it which are us? Or maybe it's about getting and doing what we want instead.

Are these two things necessarily in contradiction though? Following Gypsy Lantern's posts above, might not chasing after these desires through magickal means or otherwise lead us to find out this kind of thing, call it "true will" if you want - doesn't trying to "do what we want" and brushing up against the limits of this, lead to self-discovery, growth and finding this position, where we're meant to be?
 
 
Quantum
13:45 / 28.07.03
Sorcery, martial arts, or any comparable skill requires respect and responsibility in its usage. Gypsy Lantern
Absolutely, it's a form of power and power entails responsibility
if someone is...there aren't a great deal of options left open to you
I disagree. There are zillions of ways to deal with any difficult situation, immediate recourse to magic might not be the best. There are plenty of intelligent talented people who don't use magic (consciously), and they do alright. I use magic as a last resort, and for things when only magic will do what I want to do. Otherwise you face the temptation to FWACKOOM anyone who gets in your way, build a big tower in the desert and hire minions... seriously though, hubris is an obstacle to the magician more than anyone else- beware.

doesn't trying to "do what we want" and brushing up against the limits of this, lead to self-discovery, growth and finding this position, where we're meant to be? Illmatic
But self-control and *not* doing what we want also leads to those things. Maybe there's a distinction to be drawn between what we want to do and what we want to have. Simply going after things you want seems consumerist, doing what you want to do seems free.. but I dunno, it's not sounding convincing.

How do we judge which desires are good and which bad? I think we weigh the consequences- my desire for a fag is bad because it'll harm my health, my desire for a salad is good because it won't (for example). If that's the case then we could say the ends justify the means- in GL's example of the bad boss, ridding the workplace of such a toad might be worth the bad karma hexing their arse off would engender. But that way lies the tower, and the minions, and the evil cackling etc...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:44 / 29.07.03
There are zillions of ways to deal with any difficult situation, immediate recourse to magic might not be the best. There are plenty of intelligent talented people who don't use magic (consciously), and they do alright. I use magic as a last resort, and for things when only magic will do what I want to do.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. For me, magic is an integral part of my life and I make no distinction whatsoever between utilising sorcery as a tool to help me accomplish something, and utilising, say, persuasion, or bribery, or lateral thinking. I use whatever tool best fits the task at hand, and whatever tool I feel will be the most effective for getting the job done.

I don't buy into the whole 'magic should only be used for special occasions when you've exhausted every other possibility' malarky one little bit. I respect your opinion, but I very strongly disagree. I don't have time for that sort of procrastination, if something needs to be done and I can see a way of potentially accomplishing it through sorcery, I'm certainly not going to hunt around for some alternative method of doing it just because of some vague notion that sorcery must somehow be saved for special occasions.

I just can't go with this idea of hoarding magic, of keeping it in a box and being careful not to squander any as if it's a finite resource that might run out if you use it too much. I think this idea is rooted in the general individualistic and consumerist perspective that pervades much of western occultism - inclusive of chaos magic - that this thread has highlighted. The concept of the sigil method as some kind of inexhaustible shopping list that can get you something for nothing whenever you desire it - I think we all know instinctively that the universe doesn't really work like that, so we make up these filters such as 'only when you've tried everything else' that set artificial parameters on how we should and should not interact with it.

I think it's the underlying perspective itself that is out-of-whack, you don't have to consider sorcery and your relation to it in these overly individualistic terms, therefore you don't have to arrive at such necessary conclusions as trying to hoard magic as if it were some ever-diminishing secret liquid.

Otherwise you face the temptation to FWACKOOM anyone who gets in your way, build a big tower in the desert and hire minions... seriously though, hubris is an obstacle to the magician more than anyone else- beware.

Yes, you could go the route that leads to a big tower and minions, and many people do in one way or another. However this choice ultimately rests in the hands of the magician - it is his or her responsibility how they respond to power, and it's not connected in any way to some unspoken universal law about when and how sorcery ought to be used. It's a personal choice concerning usage of power, nothing more, nothing less.

The key thing for me, in relation to sorcery, is doing things for your community - whatever you may consider that to be. I'm always banging on about this whenever threads such as this come up, so you must forgive me for raising my favourite spectre again, but it really does put the use of sorcery into context for me.

Magic gives you power, and the power gives you responsibility, so you can either sit at home and hoard that power - as if you're afraid of being corrupted by it - only using it when you absolutely must, or else you can go outside and actively use it for what you consider to be the greater good. I go for the latter option, so it's all about doing stuff for other people at a magical level, taking clients, looking out for how you can contribute to and benefit your community -which might mean doing magic to keep the local library open, or to help your neighbour keep her council flat, or indeed, to sort out a problematic office manager.

You might not make the right call 100% of the time, but at least you are making a call one way or another, and will hopefully learn from any mistakes along the way and become a better magician because of it. Through this process you are seeking to develop the ability to judge when to intervene in something magically and when to leave things to go their own course. If you spend all of your time fretting over whether or not to use magic in the first place, this faculty of discernment is going to remain underdeveloped and you're never going to gain any real confidence in your ability to make the kind of informed judgement that a working sorcerer requires to do his or her job.

By considering sorcery in these terms, in terms of service to a community, you are raising it out of the mire of individualistic consumerism that this thread is placing under the microscope. The sorcery becomes part of a wider context, and your relationship to it then changes significantly. You've got a job to do, you're responsible for looking after a community, it's not just all about you anymore. Therefore any magic that you do for yourself is also no longer just about the accumulation of more 'stuff' for selfish ends. You have this job to do, therefore anything that brings benefit to you and will allow you to do your job more effectively is fair game.

When I talk about 'serving the community', I don't mean in some poncey narcissistic 'it is my divine calling to help these poor people' kind of way. It's simply a response to the power of magic. In my opinion, a healthy response. What are you going to do with it? How does your interest and talent for magic fit into a wider social context?

All of this talk of power and responsibility reminds me of Spider-man a bit, so I'll go with that analogy for now, as silly as it may seem. Spider-man could have easily set himself up in a tower with minions, or he could have remained Peter Parker 100% of the time - only using his extranormal abilities when there is absolutely no logical alternative. But he instead decided to go out and use it on a day-to-day basis to try and make peoples lives better to whatever small extent he may be empowered to do so. If this is considered a squanderous use of power by you, or J Jonah Jameson, or anybody else, well we'll just have to agree to disagree. The geezer spiderman saved from falling of a bridge might think differently, as might the hypothetical neighbour who avoided being evicted from her council flat due to our hypothetical sorcerer's intervention.

Please correct me if I have in any way misinterpreted your opinion or overlooked some important point to your argument in the above.

in GL's example of the bad boss, ridding the workplace of such a toad might be worth the bad karma hexing their arse off would engender. But that way lies the tower, and the minions, and the evil cackling etc...

Not necessarily. Only if you're approaching magic from an individualistic consumerist standpoint to begin with - whether or not you decide to acquire a tower and minions to lord it over is dependant on how you consider the role of magician in relation to the wider social context that it exists within. It all comes down to responsibility, and this power-crazed megalomaniac picture that you're painting is certainly not the only possible outcome, goal, or destination for people who don't believe sorcery should be used sparingly.
 
 
Quantum
13:13 / 29.07.03
The key thing for me, in relation to sorcery, is doing things for your community - whatever you may consider that to be.
A shamanic morality, aha, I get it now. That makes perfect sense to me, but entails seeing the role of magician as a vocation, and also accepting a lot of other shamanic ideas (which I personally am all for). Not everybody into magic does that though, indeed a lot of chaos magic (for example) is much more focussed on the magician as an individual, and doesn't consider the social role of the magician at all.
You might see sorcery as a job, others see sorcery as a power tool/weapon/superpower/gift etc.

It all comes down to responsibility, and this power-crazed megalomaniac picture that you're painting is certainly not the only possible outcome, goal, or destination for people who don't believe sorcery should be used sparingly.
Of course not, but it is a peril on the path. I'm not suggesting that anyone who regularly uses magic faces corruption by it (the Willow model) or that magic is a scarce finite resource (the Mana model). I'm mostly saying that the temptation to use magic to satisfy your base desires is to be resisted. Fulfilling the more philanthropic desire to serve one's community (for example) fits into an established morality of magic that has been developed over a long time.
Modern magic is a lot less grounded, and often practioners pick and choose which elements of traditions they will use. If they don't choose to adopt the (often restrictive) moral codes of traditions, they may be left following their own moral code, which might say it's fine to use magic to get your desires, which can lead to attempting to mind control lovers, fwackoom work rivals or curse ex boyfriends etc. etc.- which I disapprove of.
To use the Spidey example, he's a hero, but his costumed enemies also have magic powers and what do they use them for? Satisfying their base desires, robbing banks and lording it over minions etc. I've no problem with Superheroes, but magicians have to make sure they're not turning into supervillains without realising.
 
 
illmatic
14:00 / 29.07.03

Fulfilling the more philanthropic desire to serve one's community (for example) fits into an established morality of magic that has been developed over a long time.

It’s funny, I kind of think you need something like this in the background of your beliefs to add it power – almost without the morality, it’s just that if magick needs belief to work, and you can’t keep believing you can get something for nothing. You need some sort of context to believe in for it to work at all. “The Theatre of Magick”. Does that make sense? Maybe it's just my own random idea, I dunno.

And BTW, that’s a great post, GL. It reminds me as well of some of the drawbacks of the “shamanic workshop” thing – it kind of implies everyone can do it, which I don’t think is true. I think the space your delinating is a pretty unique one and not many people are going to fill it. Not claiming I am either, this isn’t the sort of place I’m in at all. I don’t see myself being “good” at sorcery at all – But perhaps some of the ideas your getting at – service, basically - are coming out in other ways for me, into the kind of work I want to do for instance – I’d certainly see magical process as crucial here such as trying to sort out my attitude to money or using divination to find out where I fit best in the world. A few thoughts come to mind here, the first is that a lot of magicial and religious systems seem to end up in this kind of place – funny to see you mention Buddhism above, one of the key ideas in Tibetan Buddhism is for you actions and “enlightenment” to be for the “benefit of all sentient beings”. I also think you can find this in a lot of Western magical authors as well – I think it’s a subtext in Crowley for instance. I’ve been banging the drum about how good I think Stephen Mace’s stuff is on here for a while and his later work is very much concerned with social change.

The other point that came to mind was that about why we use magick – why is this such an appealing trip for so many people? Why is there so much interest? And – to continue to slag off the “consumerist” approach – when you’ve fulfilled the few stated goals of sorcery– ie. you’ve got a bit of spare cash and you’re getting it regular, what then, why do you continue to pratice? I think partly it might function is as a kind of “entertainment”, or social role, making us feel special. And I’m not as necessarily down on this as it might sound, because this can easily equate with welcoming something sacred back into your life, giving your life a sense of more meaning and significance – this is going back to Cusm’s point in his first post above. And in this in turn might lead elsewhere to ideas of service, being in the right place – “true will” if you want....
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:38 / 30.07.03
A shamanic morality, aha, I get it now. That makes perfect sense to me, but entails seeing the role of magician as a vocation, and also accepting a lot of other shamanic ideas

Yeah, you could describe what I’m getting at as a shamanic morality, but I’ve deliberately avoided using the word ‘shamanism’ as it’s a bit of a loaded term.
Shamanism tends to imply utilising various ecstatic journeying techniques to perform operations such as soul retrieval that serve a function akin to therapy for the ‘community’. It includes other duties, but this is generally considered as the core function, the term shamanism is even defined as such in the essay on the front page of Barbelith.

I quote:

“Western xenophobia created a situation in that many indigenous religions or Earth based spiritualities were labeled shamanic. Mircea Eliade in his study "Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy", originally published in 1956, was the first person to truly take a cross-cultural look at shamanism. He came to a few conclusions, the main one states that it was really the 'ecstatic journey' that defined a shaman. The journey takes place in an altered state where the soul travels to the various worlds (usually either an underworld, middle world, or sky world) with the mission of bringing back information (such as the location of the caribou, or the enemy), souls or power. But even after Eliade's work most people, unless they were anthropologists, used the term to mean any sort of tribal priest, magician, or healer even though being an animist or a 'tribal' magician doesn't automatically make one a shaman.”

As accurate as the above definition is, it tends to get ‘Shamanism’ categorised as a particular ‘genre’ of magic – that can be happily filed away on its own shelf in the esoteric bookshop. You can attend expensive weekend workshops that can teach you ‘how to be a shaman’ based on the techniques popularised by authors such as Michael Harner, and so on. I think it’s fair to say that most magicians and occultists consider ‘shamanism’ to be a specialised set of techniques and specific vocational role that exists in isolation from the wider magical spectrum, in the same way that Nordic Seidhr or Reiki healing might do. It’s just another option in the global magic shopping mall, if it floats your boat you can explore it but otherwise it can be ignored as easily as you might ignore Scientology or the Church of the Sub-Genius.

I think this tends to provide a convenient justification for the western magician to avoid thinking about his or her work in terms of a wider social context. Which is surely a bit mad. How could you possibly not consider something like magic in terms of what goes on around you every day?

I think that at some stage you have to ask yourself why you’re doing magic in the first place. If it’s real, then are you really that self-serving and individualistic to never even consider using these methods to help out your friends and family? And if your answer this question is no, then at what point does your activity cross over into something that could be considered shamanism?

I think a technically inaccurate but commonly used definition of ‘shamanism’ might be: ‘any person who interacts with Spirit and utilises magical techniques in a social context’. In Peter Carroll’s ‘Liber Null’ he makes the claim that all magic is descended from shamanism. If we consider shamanism in terms of my above non-standard definition, then I think he’s probably right. To my mind, it’s just a natural response to be thinking about the magic that you do in terms of the people and situations around you, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be a part of some lofty vocational role.

This view of ‘shamanism’, for want of a better word, can and should exist on a sliding scale. At one extreme you’ve got the magician who sets up an open house drop-in clinic within their community, where clients visit with requests for healing, divination, finding lost property, and so on. That’s just one extreme response to the wider question of how your magical practice fits into a social context. It’s certainly not for everyone.

A more inclusive way of approaching this question might be along the lines of the following example. It’s a Saturday afternoon, you go into the tiny second-hand record shop up the road from where you live. The guy behind the counter is frustrated and tells you he’s having real problems trying to buy a bigger premises on the nearby high street. He needs to expand his business but the sale is in danger of falling through. You’re a magician. You decide to go home and do some magic on his behalf.

If the new shop opened it would be good for the owner who needs to expand to stay in business, it would be good for you because you’d have more access to new records, and it would be good for the wider community if a really cool shop opened up on the High Street. You do the magic, and he gets the shop. There’s nothing especially vocational about this kind of thought process and response, and the fact that approaching sorcery from this perspective is so readily filed away under shamanism – nothing to do with me mate – is at least worth a bit of closer examination.
 
 
illmatic
10:10 / 30.07.03
I think you’ve brought up some great stuff there, GL - will come back stuff to it later.
Going to backtrack the discussion a bit now to the actual idea of desire. One thing that’s come up for me in this thread is the word itself – can act as a confusion, as it refers to several different concepts or “levels” within us, from the deep and powerfully motivating (how do I give my life meaning) to the superficial (what CD’s do I buy at the weekend).
I found this lat night and thought it was relevant:

The present translation may be taken to suggest that through desire one is drawn to manifestations of the ultimate source. These manifestations are the “ten thousand things” and have their own reality….The main point to be noted here is that the word desire can refer to something morally neutral within us or in other contexts, to the main abnormality and distortion of our nature. In the latter case a more accurate word would be addiction or craving. Craving is a desire that devours us. But desires pure and simple are not to be killed or suppressed: they are an aspect of our human nature which enter importantly into the process of inner transformation at a certain stage. Confusion between these two meaning has resulted in a great deal misunderstanding of many spiritual, religious and philosophical teachings though the ages.

The bolding is mine – from the "Tao Te Ching", trans. by Gia-Fu Feng, from notes by Jacob Needleman.
 
 
Quantum
10:41 / 30.07.03
That's a good distinction (got to love the Tao Te Ching!) between desires that control you and "desires pure and simple". Is it as simple as cravings=bad though? I think so, but it's easy to think of examples where that sort of powerful motivation is desirable, even essential (the Artist's craving to produce art, say). As Illmatic says desire refers to several different concepts within us.

GL- I wasn't implying that a shamanic morality was universal, just that you frame your magic in a similar context (service to the community). Whether you journey to the otherworlds or have undergone initiation (visionary death and rebirth with an iron rib or whatever) doesn't matter, you could still utilise elements of shamanism. I understand your avoidance of the term though, fair enough, it is pretty loaded.
My point was your magic has a morality integral with it- that's what's important. Whether it's Wiccan ('An thou harmst non..') or Taoist or whatever, most traditions have a code of conduct to restrict the pursuit of desires at cost to others. As Illmatic says above.

Take the record shop example- if your motive is to help everyone, fine. But if you do the spell and your main motive is wanting the records, that's a different matter. Following the desire to help seems more likely to lead to good intent, following the desire to acquire possessions is likely to lead to selfish intent- and intent is key to magic isn't it?

What I'm trying to say is that lofty goals and desires (altruism, empathy) should be followed and base desires (carnal fulfilment, greed) resisted. This is true anyway IMO, but triply true concerning magic.
 
 
illmatic
10:28 / 31.07.03
Quants - Do artists crave the production of art? I say rather this is something they do naturally, and when it's really flowing with a minimum of self-consciousness - Wu Wei.

And I'm being pedantic here but do you think "carnal fulfillment" is necessarily a bad thing? I think a quick roll in the hay might do you a power of good at sometimes, though what I was trying to get at above - when I mentioned getting off with people and it being a disaster - is that I think I'd missed a window of opportunity here to put my feelings and desires under scrutiny. I think the positon we seem to be arriving at here is - "things are complex". Gl's point about the use of magick helping you to cultivate a sense of intution for what is right is a good one I think. As to the rest of what you said, GL, it's going to take me some mulling over. I'll duck out by saying I'm in a net cafe and my overwhelming "desire" right now is to duck out and go for a piss.

Before that though - aren't there any cocky young Chaos Magicians out there who want to challenge all this? Is no one going to tell me I'm talking shit and it is all about personal fulfillment? Any takers?
 
 
Quantum
12:30 / 31.07.03
Some artists *have* to produce stuff or they freak out, very like a craving if you ask me. Maybe a bad example though, I was just trying to think of a time when a craving might not be bad.

On carnal fulfilment, I'm not saying it's a bad thing (hell no!) just that using magic to get it isn't necessarily good. Partially because it affects other's volition and mind control is ethically dodgy, and partially because you don't need magic to get it. It would be like using magic to get food, in a way, to satisfy a simple desire.
I can certainly see the argument that if you're starving then a spell to get food would be OK, but the situations I'm thinking of are people using magic in preference to other methods.
For example, if I cast a spell to get a better job, I will also apply for a load of jobs and try to get them in a mundane manner as well- the magic is additional in a way. Like GL, I bet ze buys records from that shop in preference to another to help it stay in business etc.

Rereading my post I notice I did say the desire for carnal fulfilment should be resisted- that was a bit puritan, maybe I should have added 'to excess' or 'with monkeys' :-) Mostly I just mean magic should proceed from 'purer' motives rather than 'baser' motives, by whatever morality you choose to use.

The more I mull over magic and desire the less certain I become. Perhaps my reluctance is too much of a knee-jerk response, perhaps I am too cautious with it. I think I will try out a more active relation with magic for a while and see how it goes, treat it as a little less of a special occasion. We'll see.

aren't there any cocky young Chaos Magicians out there?
I'm starting to think not, maybe they're all old broken chaotes now.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:04 / 01.08.03
On carnal fulfilment, I'm not saying it's a bad thing (hell no!) just that using magic to get it isn't necessarily good. Partially because it affects other's volition and mind control is ethically dodgy, and partially because you don't need magic to get it.

I'm going to have to disagree again here, as I don't see any problem with, for example, using magic to improve the quality of your life. I've been known to do magic to just attract pleasure and fun and luxuries that I may not specifically need in the same way that I need things like food. I'm a bit of a lapsed hedonist at heart, and I think that such things do contribute significantly to a happy, healthy and productive life, and probably shouldn't be overlooked or considered somehow 'base desires' to be thwarted and resisted.

For example, if I cast a spell to get a better job, I will also apply for a load of jobs and try to get them in a mundane manner as well

You see I don't make any distinction between these methods. If, to stick with the above example, I were to do some magic to bring more fun and pleasure into my life, I would probably be framing this ritual as something that would tune my life into the correct frequency whereby those experiences would more easily manifest. The magic tips the odds a bit so that certain things are more likely to happen. I'd then go out in the world, and leaving magical results aside for a moment, would be much more open at a psychological level to the influx of those sorts of experiences into my life. The magical processes are intimately connected to day-to-day experience and, to my mind, can't really be seperated out in the way that you seem to be suggesting.

I think it all comes down to being able to gauge which of your desires might be considered 'healthy' and which might be considered 'unhealthy' for you personally, and everyone's individual needs at this level will be quite different. I think, if you're a magician, it's important to develop an innate understanding of your own desire process - which could be analogous to discovering your 'true will' in a Thelemic sense. Whether this is done through daily meditation, or consulting the I-Ching or Tarot, or just through plain trial and error isn't that important - but I think there's advantages to be gained by getting to know what makes you tick in this sense.
 
 
Quantum
10:44 / 01.08.03
"The magical processes are intimately connected to day-to-day experience and, to my mind, can't really be seperated out in the way that you seem to be suggesting."
They are in the way that you practice them, but not to everyone. There is a different flavour to magical acts than ordinary acts to most I think, invoking gods can be seperated from eating toast. (Not that you can't invoke the god of toast, but you don't have to )).
I applaud the integration of magic into everyday life, but I don't think it's necessarily universal.

"I think it all comes down to being able to gauge which of your desires might be considered 'healthy' and which might be considered 'unhealthy' for you personally,"
I heartily agree. I too am a lapsed hedonist and have to constantly guard against indulgence and greed, which is why I resist too much sex drugs and rock 'n roll- I try to keep it down to half the time, else I'd never go to work (and neither would my hedonist girlf) I'd just say 'Fuck it, let's stay in bed and get stoned'. As it is I spend too much time following those desires anyway, which means I don't have time to follow other desires like writing a book, or practice twirling firestaff etc. Personally I follow my hedonist desires too much, so it would be unhealthy for me to use magic to encourage them even more, it's much healthier to encourage my diligence and motivation instead.
I don't think I'm alone in this, most people have little trouble following their desire for fun, and more trouble following their higher order desires to diet, or give up smoking or whatever.
 
 
Quantum
10:45 / 01.08.03
"The magical processes are intimately connected to day-to-day experience and, to my mind, can't really be seperated out in the way that you seem to be suggesting."
They are in the way that you practice them, but not to everyone. There is a different flavour to magical acts than ordinary acts to most I think, invoking gods can be seperated from eating toast. (Not that you can't invoke the god of toast, but you don't have to :-)).
I applaud the integration of magic into everyday life, but I don't think it's necessarily universal.

"I think it all comes down to being able to gauge which of your desires might be considered 'healthy' and which might be considered 'unhealthy' for you personally,"
I heartily agree. I too am a lapsed hedonist and have to constantly guard against indulgence and greed, which is why I resist too much sex drugs and rock 'n roll- I try to keep it down to half the time, else I'd never go to work (and neither would my hedonist girlf) I'd just say 'Fuck it, let's stay in bed and get stoned'. As it is I spend too much time following those desires anyway, which means I don't have time to follow other desires like writing a book, or practice twirling firestaff etc. Personally I follow my hedonist desires too much, so it would be unhealthy for me to use magic to encourage them even more, it's much healthier to encourage my diligence and motivation instead.
I don't think I'm alone in this, most people have little trouble following their desire for fun, and more trouble following their higher order desires to diet, or give up smoking or whatever.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:47 / 01.08.03
They are in the way that you practice them, but not to everyone. There is a different flavour to magical acts than ordinary acts to most I think, invoking gods can be seperated from eating toast.

Funny that this seems to be such a strong subject on the day that I finally read this thread. I think that your magical background dictates that divide between acts. A large quantity of the people I know that practice any type of ritualistic magic seem to live and breathe it. Particularly those of us who work with god(desses) on a regular basis. I suspect that the line is somehow connected to that. Anyone with a tendency towards invocation will have difficulty separating magical and ordinary acts.

magic should proceed from 'purer' motives rather than 'baser' motives, by whatever morality you choose to use.

I always found this difficult wrt Gardinerian Witchcraft. There's an idea that seems to pervade this kind of magic- some things should be perfected, treated with care and while I agree to a certain extent I would never abide by those rules. However I suspect, from reading earlier comments, that I'm with quite a few other people here when I say that I don't believe any ritual should be performed purely for the sake of an end. This is really a result of working with God(desses)- they really wouldn't appreciate me demanding something and you know I like to keep them sweet!

Sorry if I'm just rehashing what others have said, I don't quite have time to read this whole thread right now, though I will eventually.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
19:32 / 20.08.03
I’ve been meaning to get back to this eating toast lark. I think a lot of it does come down to entity stuff. If you run a system where overshadowing and information downloaded into your head is regular practice, the boundaries between supposedly ‘mundane’ activities like eating breakfast and going to the shops for crisps are always susceptible to occult craziness. I like the term ‘walking between worlds’, because that’s what it feels like. The magic is not shy of taking over anything else that might be going on and stuff will come through regardless of whether I’ve ritually demarcated a certain portion of the day for magical work. It’s a living process, and it doesn’t stop for sandwiches.
 
  
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