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Underground > Art, Fashion & Design >

The cutesy goth aesthetic - who is to blame?

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23:25 / 06.08.03

The goth aesthetic is sub-cultural, it exists partly as a rebellious commentary on the consumer ethic and goths very much deal with the spectacle.

I'm in complete agreement with this: look at the mix of styles. Look at the expectation fuckery. The cutesy baby-doll/fairy-girl/etc look mixed with 'slutty' stockings and suspenders mixed with facial piercings, tattoos and dyed/shaved/spiked hair and big clumpy boots has as much of the political as the fashionable. As too, the cutesy cyber-boys or flouncy sissy romantic boy-goth-poet look or the many other styles. To simply dismiss this as fashionable posturing is patronising and ignores the types of people who will adopt this aesthetic, who are attracted to these sub-cultures. Messing with the commonly accepted notions of gender identity and sexuality is implicit in the scene and part of the attraction. It allows individuals to express their sexuality in ways that are goddamn sexy, fun and provocative. It isn't just a bunch of het poseurs (although there are plenty of those, gawd bless 'em) and I know a large number of good people who would be extremely insulted by that assumption; the queers and the dykes, the bi- and bi-curious, the tvs and the transexuals. Hey, even some of the het poseurs like myself who just feel more comfortable in less rigidly stratified social surroundings. And y'know, it's fun.

I think I might have some of Mordant's delicious Schopenhauercakes now, if she doesn't mind...

*

00:51 / 10.08.03

Cass-- You've said succinctly what I was trying sloppily to compose. I'd quote a few things specifically, but my browser's being stubborn about copy-pasting.

But another question arises in my mind. It seems to me that goth places a good deal of emphasis on the feminine. The gothic androgyny is widely talked about, but to me at least in the mainstream goth aesthetic (that is, the goth aesthetic as it is less influenced by cyberpunk or industrial) this appears not so much a move toward androgyny as an emphasis on the feminine, for all genders. For instance, the two archetypes of gothboys you described, Cass, are the "cute cyberboy" and the "flouncy sissy romantic-boy-goth poet" looks, both of which appear more feminine than the mainstream*. The most masculine clothing I've seen which could have been called goth is punkish plaid bondage pants and a t-shirt. The "cutesy-goth aesthetic" also seems to fit this overall trend, with boys and girls wearing "cute-spooky" motifs.

How does this fit into a view of goth as a form of expression? For instance, there's the trend that in mainstream culture it is acceptable (and in some places encouraged) for women to wear more traditionally masculine clothing, while it is always subversive or spectacular for a man to wear traditionally feminine clothing. Is the emphasis on the feminine in the goth aesthetic a balancing or corrective response to this trend? Or is it just that the gothic subculture leans toward the subversive and spectacular?

To address the issue of gender/sexuality diversity among the goth community: Does this make goth a less-friendly place for dykes than for gay/bi guys? What's a transguy who feels drawn to the goth aesthetic to do? or a gender-neutral person who wishes tai appearance to be as gender-neutral as possible, but likes "gothy" clothing, which is biased toward the feminine*? Is it devalued to be a straight guy in the goth community? Am I making no sense? Please advise.

*To me/in my opinion. I'm gender-challenged, so if it looks not that way at all to you, please be patient with me.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

15:43 / 12.08.03

Cass, yet again, has rendered a long rambling post that I was composing utterly redundant. I will therefore deign to share my Schopenhauercakes with him, and then we're going to sit in a corner and make sarky comments about everyone else's eyeliner. So there.

On the subject of gothic androgynity and its tending to favour the femme over the butch: I think the reason that there are more girlygoths than there are butchygoths could be loosely attributed to two factors.

One is the t-word: transgression. Goths in general are big on being transgressive; for many people it's a pretty important part of gothdom. And before you all start sneering and quoting Poopy Zzzzz. Bites-- I know very, very few the male goths who haven't been physically assualted and even hospitalized for the way they look.

The other is factor in selecting a femme look is, I belive, a rejection of violence and machismo. In a satin ballgown, it's hard to be hard. I wouldn't say it's in any way universal, but a lot of the more feminine male goths I've met have talked to me about how their look is partly about turning round and saying "NO!" to the expectations that society places on them as men.

I dodn't know about bi guys on the scene. I was friendly with a few back in the day, but they weren't exactly commonplace. Out-and-out gay men... one or two, one or two. Bisexual goth women: dude, throw a rock! Some of 'em were bi-tries, to be sure, but most had had at least one serious relationship with a partener of each sex.

I only knew one transperson*, an FTM guy. His look was sligtly girly for Gothdom (massively girly to the rest of you). He did have this cute little goatee, tho'.

My look when I'm all dressed to get messed is fairly butchygoth. I tend to favour big ol' boots, spiky accessories, and pseudomilitaristic bits and bobs (such as my much-admired bullet belt). I guess I'm feminine by the standards of the ordinary world, but in Gothdom I'm seen as unusually blokey. I get a varied reception, but generally it's positive.

*One out transperson, that is. Hell if I know how many other transfolk I might've been rubbing shoulders with.

16:18 / 12.08.03

I don't know much about fashion, but didn't the goth look come out of the 80's death-rocker look that emerged as a subet within the general punk look?

The Last Telephone

21:21 / 12.08.03

I don't know much about fashion, but didn't the goth look come out of the 80's death-rocker look that emerged as a subet within the general punk look?

When I were a goth, back in t'day, it was almost completely about the way that members of 'gothic bands' looked (it is a symptom of my age that I've placed those words in inverted commas), plus a smattering of wanting to look different from peers. Ditto Madchester baggy flares and bowl haircuts and the crustie green army coats and para boots.

Certainly for others it was slightly more political, but when I was choosing between 8 and 12 hole DMs or purple or red striped tights, it was as simple as that.

11:43 / 13.08.03

Cutesy was definitely always there and for me it was very much a political statement. Personally I was into the whole evil baby doll with dredd commando boots/mediaeval maiden with spikes thing. As a teenager and into my late 20s it was a way of challenging stereotypes of femininity and sexuality as well as being a way of expressing a creativity and outlook that didn't have many avenues. The mainstream at the time held nothing for me. At the same time, it was also fun, hedonistic and hugely self-indulgent. I don't see anything wrong with these things by the way as I'm all for them, I just thought I'd throw that in.

How do new generations of goths feel about this now? It's alot easier in many ways to get the clothes, hear the music, meet other warped individuals etc. It's a hugely successful and strong subculture (in its many and varied aspects), so much so that I'm not sure subcultural works as a description any more. Alot of the clothes are actually very mainstream now ...

Scrubb is on a downward spiral

13:12 / 13.08.03

I'm really surprised that no-one's yet linked Tim Burton to the babygoth phenomenon. Much of the whole "cutesifying" of goth, the black and white stripes, the big-eyed girls and gaunt pretty boys, does seem to tie back to Edward Scissorhands, Beetlejuice and even the Nighmare Before Christmas. There's also a pretty strong argument to be made for the "Be a cutesygoth - schnoogle with Johnny Depp in eyeliner" line.

Goth does also lend itself to cute. I think that being a babygoth at 8 or 9 would fucking rock. You'd get all the fun of dress-up - stripes, neon spikes, coloured hair, fishnet gloves, big boots - without the overt Britneyised sexuality pushed by New Look, Top Shop etc. Unless you ended up in the aforementioned fishnet stockings and crop tops.

Tryphena Absent

13:12 / 13.08.03

I think that the sub-culture's moved on to centre around the whole cyber thing now (and imho if you don't want a scuba dress than there's something badly wrong with your brain) and that's probably because of the wide availability of the cutesy gothic dress and the resurgence of Victoriana and the colour black. It's all goths with glowsticks beating fashion atm.

Tryphena Absent

13:16 / 13.08.03

And cutesy goth so predates Burton or any of this stuff. Clothing evolves, if you want to date it back properly you're going have to go through the Manics, Madonna- even if they're rejected they're a major influence- Bowie and God let's not go in to the whole Japanese pink thing. Goth doesn't stand alone, the clothes have been stolen from all over the place and stuck together to create something else.

13:55 / 13.08.03

Anna is spot on. The babydoll thing is very 60s and probably 1920s too. Yes, a patchwork of different looks/influences stitched together to create something else. Most of my clothes were either made for me, or bought from second hand places/charity shops or just pieces put together in what I thought was a more interesting way. I think it was more of a statement and perhaps we were forced to be a bit more creative in the 80s due to lack of instant access to stuff, but this could just be a sign that I'm jaded and older. Cutesy has been inherent as a goth look since it began. It's a note of humour. Fun was always a big part of being gothic (for me anyway).

14:20 / 13.08.03

Dracinabox Gothic Clothing

14:24 / 13.08.03

whoops. Meant to add look at the BABIES bit.

Scrubb is on a downward spiral

14:24 / 13.08.03

Fair points, well made. Burton did give a massive (and cinematic) platform though to a very specific cute goth style which has been kept pretty much as a constant in his work over the past few decades.

Is the cannabilistic element of goth (stealing clothes and influences from all over the shop, not baby-munching)what keeps it alive - it manages to constantly evolve through current influences and trends? And if so, then what are the constant themes that persist throughout to keep it as "goth", rather than general subculture or specific cyberscubacrinolines?

And now I want a cyberscubacrinoline. Preferably in turquoise.

Tryphena Absent

14:47 / 13.08.03

Is the cannabilistic element of goth (stealing clothes and influences from all over the shop, not baby-munching)what keeps it alive

I think that the cannibalism of goth is common to most clothing trends. It's just most obvious with this particular style because it took so much from really big garish trends. Stealing generally leads to long life when you're talking about subcultures because everything comes full circle. Fashion and particularly high street fashion has adopted this sub-culture in the last five years to the extent that it's become normal to be a cute little goth or to adopt a symbol that originated within the goth look.

Burton took the influence of the clothes and built a whole cinematic style around them. I think the gothic thing influenced him more than he influenced the culture. To some extent you can argue that he perverted a subculture because he introduced it to the mainstream but everything he took already existed in some form or another. If anything he proved that the gothic mish mash, cannibalistic thing worked on a larger level, he took the whole theme and extended it beyond its boundaries.

what are the constant themes that persist throughout to keep it as "goth", rather than general subculture or specific cyberscubacrinolines?

Gosh, that's difficult because the goth that we're discussing is an aesthetic thing really. I suppose colour, unusual texture and a certain type of grace. Goth is so big that you can only refer to certain parts of it as subculture or extend the word to cover a large subcultural movement. Trends adopted by the mainstream, logo's, prints, lace from 1999, these things stop being part of the goth culture in a certain context yet retain there own place in the subculture when coupled with other things. I suppose you must judge everything by its individual place.

15:18 / 12.04.04

(Firstly, thanks to Quantum for linking to my site with the Little Goth Girl animations.)

While goth has always been about style, I think that it's the style you wear things in that defines a goth, rather than necessarily the style of clothes you are wearing. Essentially it's about attitude, and I think that this may be where the cutesy thing comes from, as people have said on here before, goth has always had a bit of a sense of fun about it. Maybe it's because it came from punk and rebellion, which has always been enjoyable. Maybe it's because the depressive side of goth is often balanced out by manic highs.

As for the lesbain/gay/bi goth group, personally that makes sense to me. If you are part of a subset of society and then you discover there still aren't many people like you then it's only natural to want to form a group of like-minded individuals. It's not because you feel rejected from the main group, but it's because you don't want to be alone. While goths are generally a very accepting bunch it can still be difficult to find a partner who is into the same scene as you, a group like that would help I'm sure.

08:48 / 09.05.04

I just couldn't let this thread pass without making reference to the Perky FAQ
http://www.vamp.org/Gothic/Text/perky-faq.txt
Or the Perkygoff Test
http://www.obscure.org/~vlad/gothic/pgtest.html
(Yeah, I'm a textfiles junkie. Old School Yo!)
Personally, I like the idea of a Perkygoff, as there's the distinct possibility that if you manage to get one into bed, they wouldn't either just lie there and pretend to be dead, or insist on exsanguinating you. Or, at least, a Perkygoff would drink your blood with a twisty straw.

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