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Blunkett on Race

  
 
Shortfatdyke
11:43 / 10.12.01
i've not read a whole lot on this due to the computers at work being crap, frankly. BUT from what i can tell, blunkett has made some, shall we say, unhelpful comments regarding immigrants, saying they shouldbe a bit more british.

the reason this bothers me is that the reports on the summer's racial violence is out and this will link the two issues: i.e. it is partly THEIR fault for not fitting in enough. personally, if i went to live in another country, i would learn the language and culture, not to assimilate but for my own orientation. i do hate the idea of the brit enclaves in spain, fish and chips all round, none of that foreign muck etc.

has blunkett been misquoted? i know him to be rather less than progressive on gay issues, so he may not be clued up on this, either. but i also know how the press can twist things.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:49 / 10.12.01
Interesting... I think Blunkett is being treated a little unfairly by this - but only a very little. He deserves some flak for clumsy and potentially aggravating language at the very least.

But, as far as I can tell, he's saying that people who wish to become British citizens (that's *new* immigrants) should learn a modicum of English and adhere to certain values such as no forced marriage. Thing is, practically nobody thinks forced (as opposed to arranged) marriage is acceptable; and a small command of English is already in the requirements for citizenship. So what he's saying appears (and I must confess I haven't looked very deeply into this) to be pretty uncontroversial. It is unfortunate that his language and timing made it sound more confrontational that it appears to be...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:30 / 10.12.01
Of course I suppose it depends on the question of whether one feels that people who wish to become British citizens should have to speak English in order to do so(I would have thought that Gaelic or Welsh should be equally acceptable as a matter of principle). Does the idea of 'Britishness' necessarily have to include speaking English nowadays? I'm really not sure... I suppose the over-riding argument is that people should be able to speak a little of the official language/s of a country if they wish to settle there. I just wonder if it's fair to privilege English over the other languages that are spoken in Britain by citizens of this country - Urdu, Punjabi, etc etc.
 
 
Big Furry Bear
13:38 / 10.12.01
The most significant problem with what Blunkett is saying is that it has very little to do with the issues he is trying to address.

His comments, and the broadening of this debate, are a result of the racial tension and rioting seen in Braford, Oldham etc. earlier in the year.

It is just not true that anywhere near the majority of the people involved in these incidents do not speak perfectly good English (which obviously has nothing to do with it anyway) - they are young men from Asian backgrounds who have been born in the UK and probably speak English better than half the people here (literacy rates in the UK are abysmal for a 'developed' country).

In fact there are significant ethnic minority communities - most notably from those parts of the world colonised by an imperial Britain - that speak English far better than many 'natives' could hope to.

Blunkett also seems to be suggesting that inappropriate cultural practices should be outlawed as such e.g. female circumsicion (already illegal in the UK), forced marriages with under-16s (statutory rape in the UK) etc.

Legislation is already in place to deal with these issues and attacking specific cultures is a ridiculous way to go about addressing them. More importantly they are not majority practices in the communities he is addressing.

Blunkett's views on these sorts of topic seem particularly racist, seemingly blanketing (read between the lines) Muslim communities on the whole as practitioners of these sort of attrocious practices - again, just not true for the vast majority of Muslims.

And the same old bull is allowed to be debated re: arranged marriages - entirely voluntary and no different from what the upper middle and upper classes in the UK have been practising for centuries. Arranged marriages ARE NOT THE SAME as forced marriages and the majority of the Muslim population of the UK do not have forced marriages.

He has chosen to focus on minor (in number) issues which just fuel the fear of diversity already apparent throughout large areas of this country.

He is conflating lots of complex issues to do with race in the UK and making a massive mess of it all in such a way that all it will do is create tensions and fuel what is a shocking level of grass roots racism (particularly judging by last night's Radio 5 Live phone in - Muslims here are like Muslims the world over, i.e like the Taliban who are our enemy, and they're obviously scum to summarise) - providing ample justification for the BNP, Combat 18 and all the other neo-Nazis to wave their banners.

It seems to me that Blunkett is, as shortfatdyke is saying, blaming these communities for these problems when in fact poverty, poor educational and employment prospects, terrible access to healthcare and racism would be better targets for his zeal.

(Sorry for the rant)
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:48 / 10.12.01
Ah. Blunkett is referring specifically to new immigrants, not people who are second- or third-generation 'immigrants'.

He's not suggesting that communities such as the ones you talk about, BFB, actually participate in forced marriage, female circumcision, and so on. He's saying that people who wish to become British citizens should accept that such practices are outlawed here. Also I believe it has been made quite clear that he was not conflating forced marriage with arranged marriage.

In fact I think his comments were prompted more by the fear of people using the UK as a 'terrorist base' (blah, blah... you know the sort of thing) than by the race riots in Oldham and elsewhere earlier this year.

On the other hand I *do* think Blunkett is right-wing in terms of policy. But - I don't think he's necessarily a racist, though it was idiotic of him not to make his statements clearer (especially given the current climate).
 
 
Big Furry Bear
14:16 / 10.12.01
I am not convinced that is true though Kit-Cat Club.

This is what I mean by Blunkett conflating these issues.

You are right that he has said that these standards are to be applied to new immigrants but the very strong implication is that they will help deal with the sorts of inter-racial tensions we have seen in Oldham etc. through somehow bringing communities together by fostering an appreciation of British culture and language with the newly arrived.

Timing as well would seem to suggest this (as Home Secretary he really has to pay attention to this) as the reports on the race riots are due for publication tomorrow or Wednesday I think.

My point really is that Blunkett's strategy seems to be typical New Labour 'patching' that is just not going to work - it may make the majority feel like something is being done, but it really is not.

(I mean, does anyone even really believe that 'Britishness' exists? We are a 'mongrel' people and all the better for it.)

I know you don't think this is the trigger for these policies, but the problems in Oldham, Bradford etc. are to do with poverty, education and health - you have two segregated communities in the same position in relation to these issues and so, rather than working together to confront the politicians and industries that have put them in these positions (like you see in some parts of London - don't want to be cheesy, and I do not even like it, but the UK Garage scene is the perfect recent example of truly integrated culture, creating something entirely new through the influences of black and white youth in the UK) they have been incited into turning against one another.

And that's sad.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:23 / 10.12.01
Actually, I completely agree with you. Blunkett's timing is idiotic and so is his rhetoric (in this as in so many other cases).

I did hear something on the radio this morning which suggested that local government is going to be reformed in such a way as to make the allocation of funding more transparent (blimey, would you listen to me?) - so that in places like Oldham, where integration between two communities is very poor, one group doesn't perceive the other to be getting favourable treatment when in fact distribution of resources is equal. This would be a very small step in the right direction.

Unless, of course, I have been suckered by New Labour spin, which is entirely possible.
 
 
Big Furry Bear
14:28 / 10.12.01
Does sound like a good first step.

It's a big problem isn't it? People always seem to think that 'others' are better off than them and somehow getting better breaks through the state when it often does not seem to be true.

From memory that certainly was a trigger in Oldham that the BNP had used picking out one or two exceptional cases to prove the point.

It's a shame we cannot get that far away from 'they're stealing our jobs' even at a time of relatively high employment nationwide.

Fingers crossed and all that.
 
 
Ganesh
15:22 / 10.12.01
Wish I could lay my hands on a great review article in the British Journal of Psychiatry around six months ago, on stigma. One of the many findings was that the tendency to stigmatise was greater amongst those with a greater level of socio-economic deprivation (although this was obviously off-set slightly by elements like education, etc.): basically, the less you have, the more important it seems that you conceptualise someone as 'lower', 'worse' or 'dirtier' than yourself...
 
 
Shortfatdyke
15:59 / 10.12.01
when i'm back at work on wednesday i'll read more on this. i am giving blunkett the benefit of the doubt at the moment, and say his timing is crap, but can he really be that dense? but i do want to find out more.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:02 / 10.12.01
personally i find this absolutely terrifying/infuriating... It's all very well to say that you're only applying these criteria to new immigrants, but are we to assume that Blunkett et all want to set up a two-tier system where older immigrants are 'allowed' to retain their cultures, languages etc, but newer immigrants will have to become Mr. and Mrs Cooper (Kapoor) of Esher before they're allowed to settle.

at the very least, it scares me that the goverment is presenting as being utterly sympathetic to the viewpoint, held by many already, that if 'foreigners' are going to live here, they have to prove their worth by assimilating fully.

which is a total disgrace and way too close to 'tebbit test' rhetoric to be anything but scary and fucking disgusting...

[ 10-12-2001: Message edited by: Lick my plums, bitch. ]
 
 
Ganesh
16:17 / 10.12.01
It all reminds me a little of the Daily Mail Island part of Charlie Brooker's 'TVGoHome' book, the spoof newspaper which castigates immigrants for "refusing to change their skin colour"...
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:30 / 10.12.01
yeah, it is a way too close to that kind of thing for comfort. Whatever the govt. says, this just validates a policy of total assililation being forced upon people, a policy that doesn't work even when people adopt it themselves.

I've seen this happen with my parents' generation of first gen. immigrants, many of whom have raised their kids with English as a first language, for example, and drummed into us that we've got to fit in, do twice as well as the white kids, go into 'good professions' and entrench ourselves into 'the establishment', whatever that is, and now see themselves face by a 'well, you can stay as long as we don't know you're indian/afghani/ghanian etc' while at the same time being hassled in the streets, discriminated against in all sorts of ways.

sorry, feeling particularly humourless atm, honeycheeks
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:20 / 11.12.01
I honestly don't think that Blunkett intends to present as thinking that people of non-Anglo/Scots/Welsh heritage should 'assimilate' or go home; the fact that he clearly *is* presenting in that way is probably due to singular ineptitude on his part and on the part of his advisors (on the other hand it doesn't seem to be a requirement that politicians should have anything approaching a brain these days). They really should be more aware of the current feelings of immigrants & their descendants of whatever generation, and of the existing problems of discrimination which are only going to be fuelled by the sort of statement that Blunkett made.

In other ways the govt does seem to be at least *recognising* the problems caused by spatial segregation (e.g. on housing estates in Oldham, Bradford); & the idea of bringing faith-based schools into the state school sector at least shows willing - though it is highly questionable whether state-sponsored education *should* be attached to any faith or denomination.

Having said which, if all they can do is spout crap which will sound great to BNP members, they clearly need to rethink.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:08 / 11.12.01
Oh - here's an article on the findings on the race riots:

BBC piece

Main points:
1) the problems have been caused by segregation, and 'self-segregation' at that (they do not seem to have addressed the issues surrounding or causing such 'self-segregation'...)

We therefore need an 'oath of allegiance to this nation' (something I for one would not be happy about) and an 'open, honest debate about multi-culturalism' - waffle. One questions exactly how 'open' and 'honest' such a debate can ever be - we're almost more likely to have one here than in a govt focus group...

2) Regeneration schemes have been causing groups to compete against each other for funding, and where there is segregation this exacerbates tensions between communities. (This report also stressed that faith-based schools might also be a contributing factor to tensions)

But it has been pointed out (by members of the govt) that it is ridiculous to have faith-based schools for one religion/denomination and not for others...

Blunkett seems to be blaming people for alienating themselves, which is thoroughly wrong-headed.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
06:37 / 12.12.01
just a thought: i wonder how many existing british citizens would pledge allegience to this country and its values?

i certainly wouldn't. i'd dump this country for canada any day of the week.
 
 
Sax
06:42 / 12.12.01
But would Canada take you or me?

From a website about immigration to Canada:

PERMANENT STATUS IN CANADA

A. Independent/Skilled Worker Category

Applicants in this category must have a minimum of one (1) year of full-time work
experience in an occupation, which appears on Canada's General Occupations
List, after having completed their formal education/training, in order to, qualify
and they are subject to Employment Requirements for their occupation as
stipulated by Citizenship and Immigration Canada officials. They are then
assessed according to various selection criteria (i.e. age, education, occupation,
occupational demand, years of work experience, English/French language ability,
personal suitability and family in Canada) by Citizenship and Immigration
Canada officials and applicants must attain a minimum score of seventy (70)
points overall in order to be eligible to become permanent residents of Canada.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
06:53 / 12.12.01
I love my country. Well, all right, I like it. Well, it's where I keep all my stuff. And my friends. MAss exodus to Mass., anyone? Boston's really pretty around now...

I'm afraid I am struggling to form coherent thoughts on this at the moment, I think because I was talking about it a lot last night and my brain is a bit fried, but I would like to bring out something else in Blunkett's comments on the nature of entitlement - that at present there are situations where communities develop almost independently of each other, and this is contrary to the multicultural project.

Now, I;m not entirely sure this is true - possibly forcing an Islamic community to open its schools up to non-Islamic children is going to cause more friction and sense of perceived injustice. I'm simply unsure. In general, I do believe in integration, but at the same time I have to wonder whether the multicultural project is best served by cracking open local communities and mixing in "British", i.e. white, culture, if there is no reciprocity of opportunity.

I'm thinking, for example, that the "culture" of Oxbridge Academy, London, was surprisingly short on black faces. Is this going to be changed, or would Blunkett's plans only apply to cultures which deviated from the "normal and desirable" (that is, white and, in fact, middle class) arrangement?

But yes, whether inept or malicious, Blunkett on race seems about as graceful as Blunkett onb ice.
 
 
Sax
07:02 / 12.12.01
The problem is, the last time David Blunkett saw Britain it looked like this:

  
 
Shortfatdyke
12:29 / 12.12.01
am skimming through a piece by polly toynbee in today's guardian about this. 'religion must be removed from all functions of the state'.... it might throw up a few more points on this.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:53 / 12.12.01
What happened to Plums' M1 thread on this topic?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:56 / 12.12.01
It's still here, hiding.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:17 / 12.12.01
What the hell is it doing in there?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:18 / 12.12.01
It's where she started it. And I can't move it from there to here, even though I'd like to.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:52 / 12.12.01
[temper tantrum]

But I want it in here! It's no good to me in there! Waaaaaah!

[stamps tiny feet]
 
 
Shortfatdyke
06:45 / 14.12.01
my flatmate is turkish, came here a decade or so ago, and i asked her about this, cos i thought it's all very well for me to pontificate about it but i was born here and it's not going to affect me, apart from pissing me off.

she said she was at best deeply suspicious of blunkett's motives/agenda. but she said her experience of the local turkish community was that it was totally closed. she knows people who have been here for 10 years and know no english, nothing about this country. the politicos (communist) sit around and debate turkey endlessly but know nothing about this country's - their permanent home - politics. she described them as living in a fantasy land and thought that people should learn some english, just to avoid being closed off/isolated.

but she thought it was funny when i said i'd never sign a pledge of allegience to this country, so wouldn't expect her - or anyone else - to do so.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
07:51 / 16.12.01
Mark Steel sez;

Predictably the BNP are trying to confuse 'British' with 'English' so they can claim that Blunkett is agreeing with them (which is presumerably why they call themselves the 'British National Party' rather than the 'English NP'). Thing is, does 'Britishness' exist any more than 'Englishness'? I remember the depressing spectacle of Darcus Howe going looking for the English, but would he have had more luck looking for the British?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
17:21 / 19.12.01
'Nesh pointed out in the thread I started in the 'new world cris' forum (neatly identifying why i started it there) that the thinking behind Blunkett's statement isn't new, or particulary surprising, but that it's the timing that gives it particular impact...

There's a long history of immigrants being tolerated rather than welcome in this country, tolerated for labour purposes etc... You could, simplifying manically, compare it to the mentality whereby people tolerate queers 'as long as they don't shove it in my face'...

What really pissed me off (okay, one thing) was Blunkett daring to use the word multiculturalism in this context. Just the latest exampple of the fact that multiculturalism never really worked, or was never really given a chance... instead metamorphosing into something where those of other cultures are okay if

a)they don't live near you
b)don't live together in large groups
c)they seem to be trying their hardest to be like us.

Between this, the whole bogusasylumseekers farago and the 'neccessary' uprush in painting national stereotypes in order to better hate the nasty darkies in Kandahar, things look good for Griffin and co...

These sentiments are/were buried deep in so-called British culture (who was it that said that british culture these days was probably a curry?) and are now becoming more and more mainstream...
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
17:24 / 19.12.01
and sure, just from a position of self-protection, 'closed off' communities need people who can speak English/maintain links with broader British society. But they're not going to get this from blunkett's citizenship lessons are they?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
22:54 / 19.12.01
Plums - I know it's trivial, but the plane-spotters returning from Greece were looking forward to curry when they got home.

Just made me smile.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
05:03 / 20.12.01
drifting a little perhaps, but the use of language is important: i hate the the use of the word 'toleration', be it about race, sexuality etc. as a teenage lefty i used it all the time til i saw a talkshow and a black woman stood up and said how she didn't want to be tolerated because that was akin to simply being put up with. she wanted respect for her difference. it made me think a lot about language. assimilation is another word that was used a lot - very Borg-ish and similarly scary. seems to have been replaced by integration which to me sounds like much the same thing. try to be white!
 
  
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