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Pro-lifer Arrested by FBI

09:14 / 09.12.01

FBI page altered because they have caught Clayton Waagner

For those of you who don't knowe who Clayton Waagner is, he was one of the FBI's ten most wanted - and he was also a very dodgy pro-lifer.

A man wanted in the United States for allegedly sending letters falsely claiming to contain deadly anthrax bacteria has been arrested.

The man, Clayton Lee Waagner, claimed to have sent almost 300 hoax letters to abortion clinics in America.

Waagner, who had been on the run since he escaped from jail in February, was also wanted for a string of bank-robberies, firearms violations and car thefts. (BBC)

Mr Waagner has close links to The Army of God a pro-life group in, I think, Virginia.

[Note - this website could well offend you and enrage you, one way or the other.]

Their links to Clayton stories...

So, seems like a good time to ask - What is your opinion of the Pro-Life movement?

11:36 / 10.12.01

Well, there's always this...*

... I have to admit, though, I find their core argument very hard to counter.

*The same site features this tract which Ganesh's maiden aunt should probably never be given, lest she explode.

[ 10-12-2001: Message edited by: grant ]

14:17 / 13.12.01

Well, what is the core arguement?

Personally, I can't agree with any side. Why? Because none of them explained what they consider life to be. What they consider to be "alive". And stuff like that.

The most probable answer would be if one is concious. if one is aware. Well, then both sides will have to explain what is conciousness and back up their points of view.

but none of them are doing any of this. Or at least i don't think they are.

16:07 / 13.12.01

I think the army of gods lunacy is clear, and they are outside the realm of any logical or profitable discussion.

Notice how on the web site every other link is "To view more babies murdered by babykilling abortionists, click here.".
I have never seen people who are so dead set on looking at dead babies

Seriously though, they need the drug of looking at that to give their anger the strength to overpower the voice of logic, which in their heads has been strangled by "faith".

< asbestos>
I myself don't subscribe to any particular theory of when "life" begins or whether it exists at all.
</ asbestos>

But there are some interesting theories about life beginning 49 days after conception along with the first signs of sex and the formation of the pineal gland.

00:27 / 14.12.01

Logic doesn't enter into their arguements. Facts are incidental. I have no problem with someone expressing their opinion, but in the case of the Army of God and other extremist groups it's non-productive and their actions criminal.

You see these people, and other groups protesting outside clinics, making the women and girls who come there more miserable than they already are (like its some sort of fucking garden party to make the decision to get an abortion and go through with it in the first place). The practical thing (and one would think "christian" thing) to do would be to come up with programs to raise support the unwanted children in loving families. These same protestors would never sully their own homes with an unwanted crack baby, disabled, or minority child. Actually, thinking about it, maybe THAT is just as well.

They get their rocks off pretending to be St. Rambo of the Immaculate Conception. It's far easier to blow something up than to effect longterm change through legitimate action. And it's alot more fun, apparently.

BTW: Clayton Wagner was turned in by another pro lifer - Wagner scared the shit out him after walking into his house armed and then tying him up.

[ 14-12-2001: Message edited by: Concretia D'Amour ]

10:57 / 14.12.01

Where in my post did I say that logic had anything to do with their arguements?

Oh, I didnt. Thankyouplesedrivethrough.

The Damned Yankee

11:41 / 14.12.01

The Army of God has also been linked to abortion clinic bombings in the past.
Let me get this straight: In order to preserve the sanctity of life, they're willing to kill and maim?
Now where did I put that bowel disruptor... ?

11:52 / 14.12.01

In order to preserve the sanctity of innocent life, they're willing to kill murderous abortion providers, or so they would say. Why does almost no one seem to understand this?

13:39 / 14.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Steppin' Razer:
Where in my post did I say that logic had anything to do with their arguements?

Oh, I didnt. Thankyouplesedrivethrough.

Referring to the theories of life etc. General observations based on the thread Not pointing at you. Just because the post was below yours doesn't infer it was based on your post.

[ 14-12-2001: Message edited by: Anaconda Jones ]

13:45 / 14.12.01

MJ-12: I understand it. I think the idea is bollocks, however.

As with most things, I'm with the Reverend Bill Hicks on this one:

-"I've never seen an issue so divisive. Even among my friends, who are all very intelligent people.
"Some of my friends think these pro-life people are annoying idiots. Others say they're evil fucks."

-"You're so pro-life do me a favour. Lock arms and block cemeteries. Let's see how commited you are to this fucking premise."

Plus the classic:

"I've always found religion to be fascinating - ideas such as how people act on their beliefs. Pro-lifers murdering doctors? Hahahaha! Pro-lifers murdering people? Hahaha!
"It's irony, on a base level - but I like it.... We're pro-life and we'll kill your ass! That's what fundamentalism breeds. No irony."

[ 14-12-2001: Message edited by: Not Me Again ]

14:48 / 14.12.01

I would agree with you except that I was the first person to metion logic in this thread, that and the proximity. I had also just woken up and was a little grumpy.

quote:Originally posted by Anaconda Jones:

Referring to the theories of life etc. General observations based on the thread Not pointing at you. Just because the post was below yours doesn't infer it was based on your post.

[ 14-12-2001: Message edited by: Anaconda Jones ]

14:56 / 14.12.01

Does the reverse ever happen - people who are pro-choice going around blowing up pro-lifers? Surely accoring to the arguments, it's a lot more in keeping?

"I consider life unimportant. Hence, I will take yours. Hahahahaha!" [flamethrower, flamethrower]

15:29 / 14.12.01

Are there any statistics on the percentage of anti-abortion people who are also pro-death penalty? How about pro-abortion/anti-death penalty?

15:39 / 14.12.01

quote:Originally posted by mr y:
Does the reverse ever happen - people who are pro-choice going around blowing up pro-lifers?

No, they go around killing unborn children.

I really find it distressing to have to defend the consistency of a position I disagree with.

11:20 / 15.12.01

I'm pro-choice but I've never killed an unborn child in my life!

However, point taken. Their ideas seem to rest on the point of whether you accept that what's in the womb has the same status/rights etc as a fully mature adult. Which I don't.

But if I felt differently, I could well feel the practice to be barbaric and want to do something about it. I can't even argue that 'as I'm not a religious nutjob, I'd talk to my MP etc' as lawks alone knows how I'd feel if I actually saw all the abortions as God's little babies.

POV, I guess, the problem of which being that pro-lifer violence is something which isn't going to go away/get better unless abortion is made illegal again.

<loaded statement>
Or we deal with religion.
/<loaded statement>

07:18 / 16.12.01

i'm pro-choice. abortion does mean ending a life, i've never pretended it doesn't. it a horrible act but sometimes a necessary one. i don't think many women have an abortion without a lot of soul searching/guilt. but surely abortion is better than bringing an unwanted child into the world and treating it as such.

some of the pro-life lobby seem to be as much against recreational sex as they are against 'murder'......