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Dr. David Kelly

 
  

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*
12:24 / 18.07.03
Note to anyone highly placed who reads this: We're a bunch of comic nuts you idiots. Wacko conspiracy theories are par for the course.

That said, who pulled this one off? On CNN they're insinuating it was suicide. I suspect it was natural causes myself-- naturally when you've got something to hide that both Blair and the American government want never spoken of again, you're cold.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:46 / 18.07.03
Could you repeat the whole backstory for people who aren't sure about the facts?
 
 
Lullaboozler
13:03 / 18.07.03
Is anybody sure of the facts in this case?

Dr. David Kelly is suspected (mainly by the Govt.) of being the source behind the BBC reporter Andrew Gilligan's claims of the sexing up of the Iraq/WMD dossier. Dr. Kelly denies this and AG/beeb are not saying anything either way.

Now it seems that Dr Kelly has gone missing: here

I really didn't think this story could get any more convoluted.
 
 
sleazenation
13:47 / 18.07.03
A body has now been found that matches that of the disappeared doctor

I doubt this is anything more than the suicide of an honest man villified by the government for perhaps making a stand of conscience against a government he disagreed with.

Not that this isn't bad enough as it is.
If suicide is indeed proven then the Government will be heavily implicated in dreiving him to suicide in its decision to name him last week...
 
 
sleazenation
14:02 / 18.07.03
it is probably also important to note that "Dr Kelly had not been named but had been told it was likely he would be identified because of the details given out by the MoD, said the spokesman. "
 
 
*
14:04 / 18.07.03
In the absence of any evidence other than the meanderings of my own insane paranoia (as opposed to SANE paranoia, which I also possess in large quantities) I don't think it's suicide. I think he had something to say. Over on this side, the news is starting to cast critical glances upon Bush and CIA. Bush says the information was unreliable and the CIA shouldn't have let him put it in, the CIA says the information was unreliable and they told him not to put it in, and from over here it looks like Blair's the only one still claiming the information was right all along. Perhaps because Blair (or company) knew something Bush (and company) didn't about the pending disappearance of a key source.

Or if Dr. Kelly did kill himself, he was a smart man, and did it with impeccable timing.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
14:39 / 18.07.03
The *facts* around this are very muddled. I understood from watching the Beeb that Dr. David Kelly implicated himself by privately telling his bosses at the MoD that he had met BBC reporter Andrew Gilligan. The MoD or Downing Street leaked to the press that Dr. Kelly was the source even though he completely denied being the informant.
So it looks to me that he was being forced to carry the can for someone else.
Just look at the way Jack Straw passed the buck when he said that the source was in Downing Street. Government departments have been playing pass the parcel with something explosive.
 
 
knickers
14:57 / 18.07.03


'Nuff said.
 
 
knickers
15:03 / 18.07.03
Blair has announced there will be a judicial enquiry, which seems to suggest he thinks the wotsit has hit the fan.
Normally governments will do anything to avoid having judicial enquiries, and indeedhe's has been resisting it for weeks. I agree with entitything: this couldn't have happened at a worse time for Tony.

Furthermore, given his credibility crisis recently, I wonder who will actually believe whatever explanation we are given?
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
16:38 / 18.07.03
"Tom Mangold, a former Panorama journalist, ... said Dr Kelly was quite clear that he was not the main source of information for Andrew Gilligan's report."

from the Guardian
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:30 / 19.07.03
Whether suicide or murder, the timing is certainly impeccable. Looks like Campbell may be fucked either way.

I have to admit, when I first heard on the radio that a body had been found, suicide didn't even cross my mind.

"Do you feel like you've been made the fall guy?" they asked him the other day. Hmm...
 
 
knickers
09:00 / 19.07.03
I have to admit, when I first heard on the radio that a body had been found, suicide didn't even cross my mind.

Me too. I find that very scary.

/adjusts tinfoil hat
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
09:54 / 19.07.03
I think we may need to buy a new fan. This one appears to have been hit by shit!!!

Anyone hear Blair's message of sympathy to Kelly's family last night? Christ.

Whatever the facts are, Tony, you are at least partially responsible. If I was the poor bugger's family I'd want you to shut the fuck up.

Apparently they've ruled out natural causes, shooting, hanging, and an overdose. But they don't think anyone else was involved. A couple of today's papers (sorry, can't remember which, I had to read ALL of them last night and they've kind of blurred... and I really don't wanna do it again... maybe tonight I'll find a link) had the cops who found him describing it as "grisly"...

Shit, now I'm remembering that whole Marconi thing back in the '80s... got another of those hats, knickers?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:01 / 19.07.03
As far as self-implication goes- there seem to be a few variants in this too. Pretty much everyone, though, seems to agree that he had come forward, of his own accord, to his MoD bosses to say, as has been mentioned, that he'd met with AG. It seems to vary on whether he thought he WAS "the Source", or whether he thought he should come forward before anyone WRONGLY ASSUMED he was "the Source".

This is horribly sad, either way. As far as I can tell, other than doing THE DEVIL'S OWN WORK at Porton Down years ago, the guy was actually being pretty honest and decent. Whether he was killed, or driven to suicide, it's very sad.

(Then there's always that Mossad death squad that's supposed to be in England who specialise in making stuff look like accidents... QUICK! knickers, I need that hat NOW!)
 
 
bjacques
11:42 / 19.07.03
This is sort of your Vince Foster. Foster was a lawyer from Arkansas and a close friend of the Clintons. He apparently was involved in, or at least knew a lot about, the Whitewater land speculation deal that netted the Clintons a bit of cash back when Bill was governor there. When Bill became president and the Republicans opened their investigation on the deal (which investigation was sidetracked in favor of Monicagate--oops), the stakes of course got a lot higher. Foster became depressed and killed himself. Rightwing talkshow hosts like Rush Limbaugh and G. Gordon Liddy gave a lot of airtime to conspiracy geeks who thought the Clintons had him bumped off. There are people around who still believe that, or at least pretend to. It was the worst sort of rumor-mongering, because of the personal angle.
 
 
*
12:16 / 19.07.03
They've ruled out hanging, shooting, overdose, and natural causes, the papers describe it as "grisly", and nobody's said anything about the actual cause of death yet? I mean, I know there's not been enough time for a full examination, but someone had better make a tentative conclusion soon, for the sake of damage control if nothing else.

In the best case scenario (for Blair) this will turn out to be an obvious suicide, once the radical wackos like us (er, okay, like me) get done blathering about it, and he is/looks partially responsible for Kelly killing himself. In the worst case, it will be an obvious clumsy assassination, and he'll look responsible for that, there will be an investigation, conspiracy charges, total loss of all credibility, etc. In between, it'll be uncertain, or possibly an "accident", and questions will dog Blair to the end of his political life.

Either way, Blair's press people are probably squeezing their eyes shut and picturing themselves in a happy place right now.

(Incidentally, my cynicism {and occasional dark humor} about the manner of Kelly's death is not to be taken as heartlessness towards his family, friends, and colleagues. Regardless of the facts which have not yet come to light, this is an awful thing. I don't have to say that.)
 
 
The Strobe
12:39 / 19.07.03
Well, now they've confirmed it.

The link gives more detail, but he slashed his wrist and there was a packet of painkillers with him. This is all very messy and sadly, probably very unnecessary.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
16:19 / 19.07.03
I suspect I would find the idea of conspiracy slightly more difficult to cope with had Blair's government not killed thousands of innocent people rather recently. They're clearly not too bothered by life and death.
 
 
penitentvandal
21:26 / 19.07.03
This month, in Translithropolitan: as the government unravels following the WMD scandal, the barbeloids discover just what lengths the Smiler will go to to maintain his grip on power - are they too much, too late, or the beginning of a new campaign of tyranny?
 
 
.
22:48 / 19.07.03
Of course, the great thing about conspiracy theories is that they can be wonderfully self-verifying: the perfect assassination would be made to look like suicide... the fact that it looks like an obvious suicide is proof that it is in fact a perfect assassination.
 
 
Not Here Still
15:38 / 20.07.03
Point number one: what horrible news, and what a tragedy for his family. My sympathies to them and to anyone else touched by this case.
This is horrible, whatever happened.

Point number two: It hurts to note this, but was Dr Kelly's life worth more than that of 10,000+ Iraqis? It certainly seems so, given the coverage his death is receiving.

Point number three: No-one comes out of this with completely clear consciences, I think, but the Government come out of this very badly. They fucked around with one of the main concepts of a free press - that sources should not be revealed - and did it in such a way that this happened. Well Done, Geoff, Tony and Alastair. Proud now, are you?

The 'great game' which is political journalism - not just that of the BBC but of many other papers - also needs to take a look at its rule book again. This was treated like a sport - it was all fun and games until someone lost a life.

David Aaronovitch has written a good piece in the Observer on this, although I don't agree with all of what he says.



Point number four: things like this bring down Governments. People will be sacked, or at the very least, 'resign' before this is over. It is this which makes me think that this is unlikely to be a conspiracy - to answer the abstract 'who gave the order?' I think Dr Kelly has killed himself.

That said, many people conspired to form the conditions which led to him doing so.


The Times is thought to have been the first paper preparing to name Dr Kelly. As the writers of this piece note, it would be possible to deduce his name in such a small field as the one he worked in, but ...that still leaves the question of why the MoD was happy to confirm the name while refusing to release it.


I'll tell you - because they were on a fucking witch hunt, that's why.
Campbell, Hoon and Blair were made to look bad - some fucker had to pay.

What does make me uneasy is that this is a man who, in his work in Iraq, put up with the worst Saddam's secret police could throw at him. It doesn't sound like a media circus and a select committee grilling would push him over the edge. As I've said, I think, on balance of probabilities, David Kelly killed himself. Yet the motives, on what we are being told, don't seem to square. There must be more to this than meets the eye.

Perhaps the question, rather than 'who gave the order?', should be: 'What did David Kelly know?'
 
 
*
17:07 / 20.07.03
Certainly in light of the physical evidence as I understand it, Dr. Kelly's death is a convincing case of suicide. (I heard of the slashed wrist while driving to my parents' house for the week-end, just minutes after my last post.)

I think the furor surrounding this case in part arises out of people's outrage about the 10,000 Iraqi deaths Not Me mentioned. If Kelly had information which would have shown those killings to be unjustifiable, the death of one man takes on a wider significance.

As someone who believes strongly in the notion of freedom of press (at least for the moment), I find it hard to understand the aura of secrecy and the defamation of Dr. Kelly's character. To me, defaming a person for possibly having released information *which did not threaten the national security* is absolutely unjustified. This possibly has to do with the different views of the press and the responsibility of the press in the US and the UK*, but I'm not entirely sure of that-- it's probably more connected to my anarchical tendencies.

So I suppose I don't feel it's a question of "Was Kelly the source?" as whether the information is accurate and the responsibility of government officials to be open and honest with their constituents. I'm amazed that anyone other than Blair and co. could think less of Kelly (or whomever) for having felt the moral and ethical duty to release the information to the public's awareness.

Hearing what I've heard about Kelly's character, as a quiet and retiring person who preferred to stay out of the spotlight, I can't believe he would have released the information just to create scandal.

Not Me, I agree that the motives for Kelly's death may not be what is being suggested in the press (i.e., he was overwhelmed by the stress of public scrutiny, guilt-ridden, etc.) Now that I'm through wondering if he was assassinated (until some inquest uncovers signs of a struggle or unexplained bruises), I begin to wonder what he was being threatened with.



*Note that the ideal differs significantly from the reality here in the US. I'm not trying to claim that there is more freedom of press in the US than the UK-- quite the contrary. But most americans think they have more freedom of press than anywhere else, which might lead to uncritical acceptance of the information presented.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:48 / 20.07.03
The BBC's admission that Kelly *was* the primarty source indicates that somebody's responsible for some impressive bullshitting - either Kelly when he claimed to believe he wasn't the main source or Gilligan for putting words into Kelly's mouth. If it's found that Gilligan sexed up the report the BBC's impartiality is going to in serious doubt.
 
 
captain yossarian
18:01 / 20.07.03
the official death-date of dr. kelly:

17.7.2003:

17+7=24
2+0+0+3=5

24+5 =29

2+9=11

and - voilá!- we´ve got number 11 one more time....


remember: most of the "incidents" since 11.9.2003 are related to 11 or 23... and that´s NO "wacky" conspiracy theory. that´s a fact.
what´s the sense behind? i don´t know. but it´s like the UFO-thing: it exists but we do not know why.
 
 
captain yossarian
18:04 / 20.07.03
sorry: i meant 11.9.2001!!!

(11+9+2+(0+0)+1=23)
 
 
*
18:12 / 20.07.03
Some of our conspiracy theories may be tongue in cheek (or not), but Dr. Kelly may have had a few of his own:

In an e-mail reportedly sent to a New York Times journalist hours before his death, Dr Kelly had apparently warned of "many dark actors playing games".

(from the BBC stories linked earlier)

I would love to see the text of this e-mail. And the headers. I'd be equally unsurprised if the e-mail, too, was "sexed up".
 
 
Jub
07:05 / 21.07.03
remember: most of the "incidents" since 11.9.2003 are related to 11 or 23... and that´s NO "wacky" conspiracy theory. that´s a fact.
what´s the sense behind? i don´t know. but it´s like the UFO-thing: it exists but we do not know why.

Hardy har!! It's called co-incidence captain.
"IT'S BULLSHIT" also has 11 letters. Co-incidence? Absolutely.

I think it's incredibly sad about the death of Dr Kelly. That something would drive him (or if people persist in the conspiracy theory - an assassin) to kill himself is a shocking reflection on the machinations of the government.
 
 
GreenMann
07:36 / 21.07.03
Well, here's my simple theory: Blair indirectly murdered Dr Kelly because he was so mad at him, a high-ranking government weapons expert, for leaking, especially to the internationally-respected BBC, his doubts about claims that Iraq was about to attack us with WMDs within 45 mins.

After confiding to his MOD line-manager that he expressed his doubts to the BBC's Andrew Gilligan, and this was passed on to No 10, Dr Kelly was then duly 'punished' by Blair by:

- giving Dr Kelly's name to the media,
starting a long siege of his
home, family and friends.
- implying Kelly's 'lack of professionalism at
best, treachery at worst.
- ordering a 3 day MOD interrogation of Kelly.
- ordering a public interrogation of Kelly by
Parliament.

Kelly seemed like a sensitive sort of guy who lived for his credibility which was then suddenly, publicly torn apart. Kelly's doubts about the 45 minute claim opened up a can (or several cans) of worms for Blair, adding to speculation that Blair led us to war under false pretences.

Sure, Blair was severely piss*d off with Kelly and wanted to punish and humiliate him in public.
 
 
knickers
11:33 / 21.07.03
entitything
In an e-mail reportedly sent to a New York Times journalist hours before his death, Dr Kelly had apparently warned of "many dark actors playing games".


I understand that the full quote is 'playing games with my life, which makes it much more interesting.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:12 / 21.07.03
And while Mr Tony and the BBC duke it out over who's got the moral high ground (clue... neither, really, but...), let's face it, it was the MoD who actually leaked his identity, having previously told him they wouldn't (I think their actual justification went along the lines of they wouldn't tell anyone, but if anyone asked by name if it was him they'd dish the dirt. Hardly confidential). Once he was dead, the BBC contacted the family before making their affirmation.

Neither of 'em's got clean hands on this one... but Mr Tony's got a LOT of answering to do.

Such a shame that such a stirring speech about us anti-war protestors having blood on our hands could be so cruelly reversed... so easily...

If this doesn't become a major shitstorm then I will know, once and for all, that politics in the UK is fundamentally broken. And that we've lost.

My money's on Campbell going. BUT... could YOU ask for the guy who made your whole regime tick to resign? Just how mad IS King T?
 
 
sleazenation
12:24 / 21.07.03
Green man said

After confiding to his MOD line-manager that he expressed his doubts to the BBC's Andrew Gilligan, and this was passed on to No 10, Dr Kelly was then duly 'punished' by Blair by:
- giving Dr Kelly's name to the media, starting a long siege of his home, family and friends.
- implying Kelly's 'lack of professionalism at best, treachery at worst.
- ordering a 3 day MOD interrogation of Kelly.
- ordering a public interrogation of Kelly by Parliament.



Number 10 (ie the prime minister's press machine rather than the PM himself) did NOT identify Dr Kelly - they just gave out enough information about the field that their suspected mole worked in that it was inevitavble that the press eventually identified... They then confirmed his identity when they were challenged - while I agree it amounts to the same thing,m and am in no way defending it I think its an important distinction to make as technically number 10 didn't reveal his identity.
 
 
sleazenation
13:24 / 21.07.03
oooh loks like I got it a little wrong too - it was the MoD press machince, not the number 10 press machine that confirmed Dr Kelly's identity - which in itself is tantermount to releasing it, but the distinction is still important.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:00 / 21.07.03
As I said, the MoD, having promised him he'd be secret, took on a policy of admitting it was him when people asked by name. Hence all manner of shit. Not my definition of confidentiality. And if Gilligan HAD named him, and he'd topped himself? Same shit, slightly different angle.
 
 
_pin
15:33 / 21.07.03
What I'd like to know is why a significant proportion of the press are all saying that the original story is now worthless becuase "the source was in no possition to know about the dossier and wether it ahd been sexed up" (words to that effect, anyway) when he was, apparently, one of the coutnry's leading experts on weapons of mass distruction, and also Iraq. Oh, and he seemed to have doubts about the war.

That said, I'd really like to know what made the board of governors stand by this story, becaue I doubt it was out of some drive to prove that it's not full to bursting with cronies, as it was previously slated as. How warped washis testimony to fit?

And for what it's worth, I really don't think this was an assassination, btu then the only evidence I have for that ammounts to "that's just not cricket"...
 
 
diz
15:50 / 21.07.03
this still smells fishy. who goes off into the woods to slit their wrists?
 
  

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