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Underground > Radio & Music >

Plagiarism in music.

The Return Of Rothkoid

22:42 / 17.07.03

So: Bob Dylan has apparently ripped off a novel in his search for lyrics.

Obscure, yes. Good/bad? I'm tending towards the "poor show" side of the fence. How much a part of music is this? Is there a difference between the passing down through club scenes/oral histories and lifting from a book? Blow it open.

at the scarwash

23:25 / 17.07.03

Of course there's nothing wrong with it. The lyrics lifted from the book are interespersed liberally with lines of his own devising. They are recontextualized in a way that makes them new. I think that Dylan's camp, in being uncommunicative about the issue is making it look like the Ancient of Days has something to hide, but I'd assume that that is for legal purposes, although the author of Confessions of a Yakuza claims to be flattered. In my writing, I plagiarize things people say on the bus, billboards and street signs. What makes Dylan's actions any different from mine? Now, if Dylan had written a book in Japanese called Confessions of a Yakuza, and then had it translated by John Bester, he might be verging on dishonorable plagiarism. Then again, he could be simply embarking on a Borgesian questioning of the nature of authorship. Or maybe not.

The Return Of Rothkoid

03:26 / 18.07.03

Of course there's nothing wrong with it.
Unpack. It's not blindingly obvious what part of his lifting a copyrighted work is fine and dandy. Remember, eight notes has proved enough to get people on infringement before, I daresay this amount of "recontextualisation" is actionable, if there's a mind to - regardless of whether there's a wish to on the side of the novelist.

07:11 / 18.07.03

There are all manner of grey areas, of course, but by and large I'd say that if one wishes to use more than a small quote from a copyrighted work, it's no more than common courtesy to seek permission first.

Old brown-eye is back

09:08 / 18.07.03

I'm not sure whether it's actionable is an issue - say he'd quoted from an author that was no longer alive, or work that had no copyright attached to it. No one sued Lou Reed for The Raven, at least not to my knowledge.

As to whether it's acceptable from a creative point of view, I would say that it is ok if only for the fact that artists have been making new and wonderful things out other people's work for years. Dylan himself has always been very open about the debt he owes all those old folkies that he used to go and wank over back in the Village - if it hadn't have been for Holinshed, Plutarch etc Shakespeare would have been forced to think up his own ideas. On the other hand - Lazy Bob! Bad Bob! What sort of fucking voice of a generation are you that you should need to rip great chunks of text out of somebody elses work?

10:05 / 18.07.03

TAKE MY HAND

http://www1.scoopthis.com/411/met_uf/stc_met_uf_mtv.htm

OFF TO NEVERNEVERLAND

fucking rocktwats. i hope they never sell another record again

10:34 / 18.07.03

A similar case occurred a couple of years ago, when (now borecore) British indie chancers the Bluetones pilfered some lyrics from a poem by Adrian Mitchell ('Celia Celia') for 'Bluetonic' - I believe that they credited him in their sleeve notes to avoid any legal problems. This probably indicates that there would in fact be a legal problem if it was uncredited. In creative terms I can't really see the problem...

12:38 / 18.07.03

If it does turn out to be true ... then I don't agree that it's okay and that there's nothing wrong with it. This doesn't smack of intentional recontextualization to me. IMO there are two big factors in that kind of work - source material and motivation. Source material - if Bob were intentionally doing a recontext/riff, why pick something so obscure that doesn't resonate with much of his audience? And why scatter and bury the references instead of consolidating them? Motivation - I haven't actually heard the album in question, so I might be talking utter crap, but again if he were intentionally doing a recontext/riff on something, ... wouldn't we know it? Wouldn't he have talked about it and why he did it? Why would he keep mum about his motivation for it? Like Tori Amos doing "Bonnie and Clyde" - you can tell what she's doing and why. She's deliberately riffing. Again IMO but Bob's instance seems less like "I'm intentionally reappropriating to make a statement" (and what would that statement be, anyway?) and more like "I thought these phrases sounded cool". (disclaimer: I am not a musician, please take opinion with fist-sized salt grain twice daily)

Old brown-eye is back

14:00 / 18.07.03

Old Bob doesn't strike me as the type that needs to nick from other people because he's got no ideas of his own. Are there themes running through the book that in his own crazy Dylan-like way he wanted to reference and appropriate for his own gratification? More to the point, what in the name of Christ is that 'tache about?

The Return Of Rothkoid

14:32 / 18.07.03

He's recontextualising Vincent Price, I think.

No one sued Lou Reed for The Raven, at least not to my knowledge.
...but the fact that Poe's work is now in the public domain would have a lot to do with that.

Whether it's actionable is an issue. Hip-hop has had to come to terms with clearing samples. Why is this different. Because it's Bob Dylan? No fucking dice, methinks.

Old brown-eye is back

14:41 / 18.07.03

Re The Raven. I realise it's public domain - that's kind of what I was getting at. If the actual question being posed here is just should the author be paid for the use of his work, I don't see why not. It's not as if Dylan hasn't got the money, after all.

See. Easy peasy.

19:03 / 18.07.03

Khaologan23ris: Check the Unfaith website, that Metallica story is a hoax.

at the scarwash

23:38 / 18.07.03

From a legal standpoint, Mr. Dylan may indeed be guilty of some offense, and I apologize for glossing past that in my previous post. However, just as in hip hop, swiping a line from a novel is completely defensable creatively. I hope ole Bob doesn't get sued, but I think he was indeed in the right artistically, just because "I thought these phrases sounded cool." Some artists might get uppity about the swipe. That's fine. The debate over appropriation versus plagiarism is going to continue as long as there is art. In my opinion, it's just as artistic as creating something original. Found texts can be utilized in very effective ways. One of my personal favorites was the use of 9/11 aircraft control transcripts used in We Have Some Planes, directed by Brian Jucha with Infernal Bridegroom Productions here in Houston.

10:50 / 20.07.03

damn