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Be careful with revolution

 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:24 / 17.07.03
This is just a personal thought. I think we should be careful how we use the word revolution, and how we react to it. A revolution in terms of art or ideas is a very different thing to one in terms of a millitary coup.

For example, look at the communist revolutions in china and russia- they both started out as being the people's outrage at an opressive government, and then in turn became an oppressive government.

Then if we look at feminism, we see that because it was none violent, no-one* was killed outright in it's name, and it's result has been continued better treatment of women.

*i say no-one but i can't prove this conclusively.
 
 
Fist Fun
13:26 / 17.07.03
What are you suggesting Chris? That we should use different words? Make explicit the distinction between violent and non-violent revolution?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:38 / 17.07.03
Yeah. or at least make sure that we all know what we're talking about. Example; if i was to start a group which had the intention of reducing a corporation's power, I would inform my comrades of whether we were going to actually "blow things up" or write letters and petitions (in my case it would definitely just be petitions, i hate violence).
 
 
Fist Fun
13:45 / 17.07.03
That would be wise Chris. Else it might end up like that bit in Fight Club where MeatLoaf gets shot.
Seriously though, it is normal that the meaning of words differ with context. I don't think there is a need to be mega explicit.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:12 / 17.07.03
Chris, I think you're a bit muddy on this subject. May I suggest you look at the work of Karl Popper, Thomas Kuhn, Theda Skocpol, John Dunne, Chalmers Johnson and Ted Gurr?

There's also a thread on revolution in the Head Shop at the moment.
 
 
No star here laces
18:05 / 17.07.03
Patronising suggestions of reading material aside, I think I get what Chris means...

When people say 'revolution' (at least in my familiar context of youthful liberal utopianism) they normally mean "concerted attempt to change something we don't like" rather than armed insurrection. Unless it's a new type of instant food product on an advert, obviously - that is a revolution too.

Which is to say - everybody likes to make the small amount of change they actually manage to acheive seem a bit bigger by framing it as a 'revolution'.

qv:

"the ladette revolution"
"the interior design revolution"
"the gastropub revolution"
"the new rock revolution"
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
07:48 / 18.07.03
Yes, bad me, I suggested someone actually read some of the considerable body of theoretical work which has already been done on the topic of revolution and what exactly it is.

I am an intellectual snob. Boo hoo.

All right, I'll say it differently:

Chris:

I think we should be careful how we use the word revolution, and how we react to it. A revolution in terms of art or ideas is a very different thing to one in terms of a millitary coup.

That much is obvious. The term 'revolution' is used freely and without a great deal of critical thought by many people. The Duc de la Rochefoucault used it in answering King Louis' question "is this a rebellion?" "No, Sire, it is revolution," the Duc reportedly replied, meaning: "this is the Big One, now get in the bloody carriage."

For example, look at the communist revolutions in china and russia- they both started out as being the people's outrage at an opressive government, and then in turn became an oppressive government.

This is why I would propose Ted Gurr. He would agree with your assertion (as would I) that revolutions are an expression of outrage. However, other theorists look at revolution from a somewhat greater distance and say that it is the expression of structural forces in a society. Theda Skocpol has very little to say about outrage.

It's also worth observing that the Russian Revolution was initially not nominally Communist, but became so in October after the failure of the Provisional Government. Even then, the Soviet system might well have worked - it is in many ways profoundly democratic - but it was successfully usurped by Lenin's Party. The ideology of Leninism allows a small enlightened group to educate and indoctrinate others into the revolution, something missing from Marx's formulation of revolution. In other words, the Bolshevik seizure of power can be seen as a political coup riding the instability of the post-revolutionary moment.

China is more complicated than that, and took decades, so I'm not going there. The point is that 'revolution' is a word routinely applied to a very broad spectrum of events, and looking for definitive ones is very hard. The American Revolution was a war of independence, the Russian Revolution was an uprising against intolerable conditions which was hijacked by a unique movement. China's revolution was first anti-colonial, then peasant-nationalist, and finally was stolen by Mao to make something new again.

Then if we look at feminism, we see that because it was none violent, no-one* was killed outright in it's name, and it's result has been continued better treatment of women.

This is closer to a 'paradigm shift' as described by Kuhn. It required a new way of looking at society, but didn't lend itself to a civil war for fairly obvious reasons - which is not to say there wasn't violence as a by-product. The various feminisms articulated by different thinkers and different waves have proposed different means of change, and the feminist project continues to meet with (sometimes violent) resistance. Before September 11th, there were calls for a war against the Taliban to liberate Afghan women - which would have been, as far as I know, the first feminist war (though exactly how feminist it would have been is open to question, just as the Bolshevik Revolution had questionable Marxist credentials). It's even possible to make the case that without the anti-Taliban views held by many as a result of their treatment of women, the Afghan war would have been impossible, or at least, much harder to sell when the time came.

Be that as it may, yes, you are correct that this is a different use of 'revolution', though all these can be described as 'radical social change' (Skocpol) and in terms of a change in the perception by society (or the individuals composing society) of society, what it should be, and what (whose) values it should reflect (back to Gurr and Dunne).

Chris, my apologies if I seemed dismissive of your first post, but as you see, you've touched on a rather large discussion, and it's one whose outcome ultimately determines not only the identity of this notice board but also both the analysis of political action and the methods of those who would wish to alter the political and social landscape.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:44 / 18.07.03
Now i feel big because i've started a discussion.

I guess another point i was trying to make would be a more general one about letting rose tinted views hide the truth. As in "let's overthrow the Bush administration" which people come out with a lot, and i agree with. But anyone who says something like "Now who's going to organise this large country" tends to get branded as a scab.

BTW I have been at those books somebody mentioned. Reading books doesn't make you an intellectual geek, that's what THEY want you to think. "In the right light, study becomes insight, but the system that dissed us teaches us to read and write".
 
  
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