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Spun from the Courtney Love thread: Rapes at Woodstock '99

 
 
grant
13:03 / 05.12.01
First, Foxxy posted this:
quote:You didn't hear about that? Oh it was horrible - at Woodstock 99 there were several rapes that occured in the mosh pit during Limp Bizkit's set.
I'll be back with some info links.


And I thought, "A rape during a concert, I can see. But IN a mosh pit? No way!"

So I followed the links she posted.
Including this one, to Fabula Magazine.

which included the reaction:
quote:the male physical energy created by the spinning pit was used by a few fucked-up guys to create a mood and space where misogyny is OK, and then to protect the fucked up acts with the physical power of that space. In other words, most guys in a pit are focused on their interactions with other men there. The women are secondary or even interlopers. Some men might not notice, some might not care, some might support the brutality. According to the testimony, this was true-the women struggled and guys held them down.


The kind of thing described above seems impossible to me - mosh pits, for one thing, are a perfect staging ground for vigilante justice & retribution. The weak might get kicked out of a pit, but people will target someone who's overly abusive or acting unfairly. (In my limited experience.) They tend to be self-regulating systems.

Now, I have a friend (now departed) who went to Woodstock as an indie journalist. He was quite crazy to begin with (long story, but I use the word with full intent), but he came back even crazier. I remember his stories - candles during power outages, TV vans getting tipped over, looting of concession areas, fights, mobs, fires.

Reading this, though, I can't help but tag some sort of magic explanation onto the whole event. Something happened there that unleashed some kind of "evil forces," you know?
Call it return of the repressed, call it the Jungian shadow of the original festival or the antimatter version of the rave scene. Pent up anger against the capitalist system?
A lesson in controlling a captive market? (kids weren't allowed to bring in food and water, weren't allowed to leave and return, and compelled to buy extortionately high-priced food and water.)
The end result of oversaturation in bad, angry media?
Sunspots?

How else would you explain it?
Was this an anomaly or are there other festivals of chaos and violence? Is this related (as the article authors imply) to Columbine?
What's happening to youth culture?
 
 
grant
13:21 / 05.12.01
Here's Courtney herself, same article, talking about "evil vibes" while touring with Korn. Bear in mind, she knows Korn are just tools for their machine, wholly-owned employees. Who work with people who routinely rape groupies.

quote:I think this pimping business is controlled within the Korn/Limp Bizket nexus. I don't think these guys "demand" picking sessions. I think they think it's a normal "rock" activity. I think these guys get these kids so much nookie they don't know what to do with it.

I think it sends out a vibe, and I think that vibe is foul and it stinks. I think audiences pick up on that vibe or image-that it's OK to abuse and degrade us. I think the head "person" of the Korn/Limp Bizket (and amazingly, the Backstreet Boys-I don't even want to THINK about that) needs to cool his shit out or I'm going to start naming him, out loud and everywhere, and what's he going to do? Is he going to say I'm a crazy stalker groupie? Uh huh.
 
 
Bear
13:21 / 05.12.01
I had a similar kind of experience in a Slipknot mosh pit, before the band came I swear you could actually feel the anger building up, and when the band started things just exploded, it was just a huge mess. There was blood everywhere people staggering around with broken noses, most of the people fighting were about 14 and it was just insane.

I'm not sure about magick about it, very possible - possible just hormones all those teens getting into a frenzy together..
 
 
bitchiekittie
14:01 / 05.12.01
I dont know about actual rape but some level of sexual assault happens in the pit at nearly every large concert gathering Ive been to, usually directed at the girls who choose to crowd-surf. I cant tell you how many girls Ive seen with their tops either pulled up or torn, and even see girls who tops are stripped, bra and all. I think the boys see it as "harmless fun", a series of quick gropes and small tugs of fabric from each hand she passes. each one fairly insignificant to the perpetrator, and many girls do (seem to) laugh it off as a side effect to the pleasure of crowd surfing. so I can see how a less-than-sensitive guy could feel this behavior was acceptable, especially in the face of so many others laughing and egging him on, participating themselves. some girls willingly pull up their tops, sometimes bras as well, and Ive seen girls do this, get groped, and throw their heads back with laughter, further fueling the notion that this is ok

Im not in anyway suggesting that the womens behavior makes the mens reactions acceptable, but stupidity breeds stupidity. you have to be careful of yourself when in the midst of assholes, and rule your immediate territory with ready knuckles

Id also like to add, on a bit of an off topic note, Ive personally been saved from the more violent, large moshers by random men standing by. Id like to give them a great big THANKS (especially if one these posters, male or female, is the type to do this)
 
 
Foxxy Feminist Fury
14:36 / 05.12.01
Damn, do I wish I could find a link to Spin's article on Woodstock 99, because it was really great, but unfortunately those little pricks don't have a link to it.


That whole concert went off almost as the antithesis of (the myth of) the original Woodstock. The promoters did everything they could to make as much money as possible, skimping on adequate food concessions, toilets and failing to provide adequate water - not only did they run out, but they charged about $3.50 a pop for it, in spite of the fact that the temperatures were well into the 90s and with the humidity, surely felt hotter. The festival-goers were moshing in pits that contained both mud and feces (due to the inadequate toilet facilities and traditional drunken behavior). All accounts - or, most accounts-make the whole thing really sound like a nightmare.

As far as the rapes go, I do think there's something scary that can happen when a crowd - a CROWD, mind you - of young males go out and combine alcohol to that mix. Look at what happened in New York on Puerto Rican Day 2000. This mob mentality takes over. And I'm not saying that only young men are affected by a mob mentality, but it seems with young men this inevitably leads to excerting their power over women in some regard. I do think that certainly fueled the fire with the Woodstock rapes, and a band that appeals to ubertestosterone youth like Limp Biskit certainly didn't help.

I realize I could be setting myself up for a major disagreement here, but I'm interested in your thoughts.
 
 
MJ-12
20:32 / 05.12.01
Does anyone recall which band it was a couple years back where they stopped in the middle of a set and called out, "if you don't stop groping these women, I'm going to come down there and kick your ass personally"?
 
 
nowonmai
22:05 / 05.12.01
sounds like something at hthe drive in would do. safety for fans, girl friendly mosh

beatie boys were considering a regulated mosh area. thoughts?
 
 
bitchiekittie
15:22 / 06.12.01
I dont know about that. it kinda defeats the purpose (or the desire) of being in there. I go in there knowing Im going to get my ass knocked around a bit (I go to get closer to the mess, not actually participate in it). I do think that people need to be more aware of what goes on around them, and be prepared to step in for someone else in the event you see something like that going on. this looking away, "minding your business" bullshit has got to stop. I personally dont mind cracking a few knuckles for someone else
 
 
suds
08:40 / 11.12.01
MJ-12, that was dave grohl.
in my humble opinion, the man is a saint. he always makes sure that no-one is getting hurt at foo fighters shows.
unlike mr. frederick durst, who implores girls to get their tits out, who incites men to tear girls tops off if they do not comply, who doesn't seem to give a fuck that there is a dead girl in australia who died at one of his shows.
he is an evil little man.
whoah, i am being very black and white about this isue, aren't i?
the fact is, i can't feel safe at gigs anymore. i used to battle my way to the front and mosh around all the time. i wouldn't now. at phoenix 1996, i fell in the mosh pit and my dress got ripped off me. i was helped out, and even tho i was just in my underwear, nobody groped me at all.
how can things get so fucked up, so fast?
(edited to say: thank-you for the link, foxxy)

[ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: suds ]
 
 
rizla mission
11:17 / 11.12.01
Excess testosterone - bad phermones.
Music that encourages the idea that angry white male teenagers have somehow been wronged by the rest of the world and are justified in seeking revenge upon it..

probably lots of beer.
weaker people in the way.

not nice.
 
 
rizla mission
11:19 / 11.12.01
Though having said that, I've been in the midst of nu-metal audiences whilst watching bands like Amen and Pitchshifter, and have never seen any unpleasantness..
 
 
suds
12:19 / 11.12.01
there shouldn't be any nastiness in the mosh pit towards women, period, whether yr listening to pitchshifter or tom fuckin jones.
i'm not sure that alcohol + white teenage male = rapist. i don't want to believe that.
this is my 100th post! yay for me!
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:51 / 11.12.01
Doesn't yr safety at shows depend greatly on what band yr seeing and what kind of male fans they attract?

most of the bands I go to see have very nerdy male fans who refuse to lightly sway to the music much less dance or mosh... If you're going to see a mainstream hard rock show, it should be pretty easy to see the worst things coming... which is hardly an excuse for rephrensible behavior by any means so much as a consumer's advocate warning about such events...

I don't know, my show experience is limited to NYC and DC, and I've seen a lot of shows in the past 8 years or so, but only a couple with actual moshing...

Suds, for example, if you saw The Jicks in England, would there be crazy moshing and stuff? Or is this just for the festival shows which attract a more macho element?
 
 
bitchiekittie
13:37 / 11.12.01
the shows Ive seen the violence in were the great big musicfest types (flux, you may have heard of the hfstival? a md/dc/va show, mostly big mainstream bands on the main stage, with one or two smaller stages for the more local bands, and a "transmissions" tent). Ive been to four of these, each one of them with girls getting groped and/or suffering clothing casualties

however, I dont ever see this at the smaller venues - nothing beyond girls willingly showing their breasts or someone getting a bit too rought in the pit
 
 
suds
15:13 / 11.12.01
mr. flux- i think that it really depends on what the band do to control the crowd. having fred durst screaming for the girls to get their tits out i'm sure didn't help matters. i can't see stephen malkmus doing this.
i think that singers in bands such as limp bizkit which are hyped by rolling stone and other bullshit mainstream music press are made to feel that they *have* to behave in a certain *cough* sexist *cough* way to be credited by the aforementioned sexist press.
and then we get to the chicken and the egg scenario: does rolling stone and their ilk praise these bands for being so 'rocknroll' ie sexist, so the bands think, 'we'll have to be like that to be famous'
or
are bands like limp bizkit going to get more famous anyway because the media really does think that it's important for rich white male kids to whine about something, it may as well be women?
i don't know. do the math yrself.
as for the showing tits thing: to expose yrself to a crowd is a way of being accepted into the crowd, and is a definate part of being a girl at a festival. it is usually down to peer pressure, lest we forget.
but showing tits *never* means gang rape me. which is the pathetic excuse many men made after the carnage at woodstock:
'there were so many young girls walking around with no clothes on - i am a red warm blooded male, what else was i supposed to do but rape them?'
i can't even respond to that sorta bullshit, because it's way below me.
and thats all i have to say on the matter for now.
my computer is buzzing really loud and i suspect it's gonna blow up.
 
 
grant
17:27 / 11.12.01
I think you've hit on one of the things that really bugs me about these stories.
I've been in plenty of spaces where public nudity just sort of happens (from small house parties to large-scale festivals), and it's *never* been an excuse for anything like this.

Although, upon reflection, I have witnessed some dodgy groping/peer pressure going on at Mardi Gras. That's definitely part of the freaky vibe there... hmm.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:04 / 11.12.01
mr. flux- i think that it really depends on what the band do to control the crowd. having fred durst screaming for the girls to get their tits out i'm sure didn't help matters. i can't see stephen malkmus doing this.

well no, and if he did, people would just think he was joking.

I'm not in any way defending these thugs, and I'm just as horrified by this sort of thing as you are, trust me... What I was trying to say is that it's a certain type of band that does this, a certain type of fan too. I was getting the sense from some of the earlier posts that this was the *norm* for any given concert, which it really isn't. When you say "i'm afraid to go to shows" that's a bit over the top, cos let's face it, this shit is not going to happen at a wide range of different concert environments.
This is a subcultural phenomenon, and not the mainstream of what is the general concert going experience...
 
 
bitchiekittie
18:27 / 11.12.01
I dont know about it being subcultural - it seems to happen in the larger, more open forums, which usually also tend to include more mainstream bands - not only does it happen more often there but the level of assault occurring/being accepted seems to be more severe
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:34 / 11.12.01
subcultural in that it is limited to a certain subcategory of music and fan, and not pancultural in that it is something that is happening across the board...this is something that is happening mostly at harder aggressive rock and hip hop shows, and at festivals in which these acts are playing. Just because it is mainstreamed and popular doesn't mean it's not subcultural, it just makes it more troubling and dangerous.
 
 
bitchiekittie
18:49 / 11.12.01
ah, sorry

I think its readily apparent that certain artists/bands draw a completely different crowd than others - you can pretty much bank on who will have a pit, whos night will include a fight, which bands will draw more girls and which will draw more teenagers (I could go on for ages on the differences of two different shows I went to this week, from the crowd alone).

just like the fashions change from one set to another, so does the temperament
 
 
rizla mission
14:29 / 12.12.01
indeed.

(Actually, it's ages since I went to a big, ugly, moshing rock show .. maybe I'm getting too arty..)
 
 
suds
15:54 / 12.12.01
FLUX QUOTE "When you say "i'm afraid to go to shows" that's a bit over the top, cos let's face it, this shit is not going to happen at a wide range of different concert environments."

ok, so girls are gang raped in mosh pits at woodstock 1999 and every festival *i* go to there is some sort of violence against women being made and i am not supposed to feel worried for my safety and for my friend's safety?
you'd better fucking believe i will!
as it so happens, a girl was raped on site when i was awake and walking around with my chums. it is reality and i am never, ever going to pretend it isn't.
it happens at all fucking types of shows.
i have been harrassed at a fucking idlewild show in my home town in the winter when i was with a boy-friend of mine.
don't say i am being 'over the top' for protecting myself. because you can be sure that i am more of a likely target than you, being female, and i really expected more compassion from you.
sorry but i'm really pissed.

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: suds ]
 
 
suds
15:59 / 12.12.01
while i'm here: harrasment can happen to anyone, at any show, at any place in life. it can happen to a girl who digs tori or a girl who digs linkin park. i should also point out that a couple of my male friends have been harrassed at various gigs (aside: but not to the extent that me and my girlfriends have).
*it happens more than people think*.
if you are harrassed or grobed at a gig or anywhere else remember to tell yourself that it is not your fault. and to try and get help as soon as you can.
i am glad we are debating about this because it brings huge important issues up for all of us.

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: suds ]
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:43 / 12.12.01
I was suggesting that it was over the top to suggest that the same level of hostility is happening across the board at the full range of concert events, not that you are overreacting by protecting yourself or being wary of which shows you were attending - that's logical and reasonable, and I'd question the sanity of someone who wasn't being so vigilant.

I honestly have no idea what goes on at shows in the UK, as I've said, my experience is limited primarily to the NE USA, and what I've read about events throughout the United States (which is quite a lot). I actually have little knowledge of how audiences behave in Europe, other than a having a predisposition towards pogoing and clapping along in a way which ruins many a live recording...
 
 
Devin 1984
12:12 / 13.12.01
Courtney Love is mental.

She talked Cobain into killing himself... "Do it, do it" she said as he was high on heroin.

Now she's living and thriving off the fame HE created.

Sorry off the subject, but she's evil.
www.harplander.com
 
  
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