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Representing magick - what floats your goat?

 
 
Ex
12:22 / 14.07.03
I've been lurking, but I'm emerging to ask - what books, films, tv series have got it right, for you, with magick? (accepting that both magick and reading pleasure are diverse and often subjective).

Chris has already mentioned the representations of magical training in Harry Potter as irritating him for their similarity to a modern educational system.
What else do you find jars? What has stuck in your craw, in the way of practice, and under-all theory or philosophy? Conversely (and perhaps more productively) what struck chords and made you feel chirpy? What would you show your chums with pride? What would make you send scratchy letters to the BBC?

I ask in part because I'd like to include magick in some of my fiction. While I'm gradually reading up on the vast and intricate subject (and the forum has been terribly helpful, ta v. much), I fear that, being a newcomer (in both understanding magick and depicting it) I will immediately fall into cliche and thence to parody. Much in the same way that in sixth form theatre studies, I thought black stage-clothes and strobe-lighting were really subversive and innovative.
I'll probably be incorporating magick as a character attribute in realist fiction (about twenty-something queer grad students talking endless codswallop and living on lentils, because there my bent lies). I'm also interested in fantasy cultures in which magick plays a larger part. But any kind of creative text is good.
 
 
illmatic
13:25 / 14.07.03
"Wizard of "Earthsea" by Ursula Le Guin, I thought was absolutely wonderful. Perhaps she's more influenced by Jung than occult writers but so what, it's still great. Also a wizard training school, but I've never read Hairy Potter so I can't compare.

Fiction wise, I'd like to see some gritty mages in urban setting, so the students, lentils and mental disorder thing might work. I thought "Hellblazer" was brilliant for that, 20th Century, UK feel - but not up on the later issues though.

I dont' know - are you just talking fiction, becuase although there's lots of inspring literature, there's not much out there that mixes this kind of day to day living in the here and now.
 
 
Quantum
13:26 / 14.07.03
Nothing yet in books or film or TV or music has done anything for me except make me gag or rage. The only medium where magick is well represented is comics, weirdly, where Promethea, the books of magick, the Invisibles etc. fly the flag.
I too am including magick in my fiction (and using fiction for magickal purposes) and the best thing is to do the research first hand, to give it some authenticity. Otherwise you end up with anodyne recycled pap magic.
Magick is about sex and death, not Quidditch.
 
 
Quantum
13:29 / 14.07.03
*hasty retraction* Nothing yet in books except the Earthsea trilogy and the work of Diana Wynne Jones (especially her adult stuff).
 
 
_Boboss
15:26 / 14.07.03
there's a heinlein story called Magic Inc which is good for just forcing magic and materialism together and, oh shit! they fit really well and magicians have unions and every company has its own magician to stop other companies from siccing demons on them and stuff

and dennis wheatley, for the 'fuck me it's real after all'-ness of when a ritual goes right.

and the wicker man's great for getting the paradox of the lunar hunt across
 
 
*
15:42 / 14.07.03
Okay. Are you trying to portray magic realistically? Or just differently from other fiction?

If you can spend the time, I'd advise doing some anthropological study of both modern/western interpretations of magic and modern and ancient non-western interpretations of magic, and identifying certain commonalities as well as drawing your own conclusions. Frazer's Golden Bough is an undesirable shortcut; avoid it.

If you haven't the time, or are so specifically focused on magic in a modern/western setting that it doesn't seem worth it, I actually rather liked what Katherine Kurtz did with Lammas Night, and Mercedes Lackey's guardian series -- i forget what she called it, but there was this big uproar among people who were doing something very similar to what she described and wrote her to tell her so, and she thought they were all whacked out of their gourds. I don't blame her; some of them were. But not all.

But neither of these books go far enough, because magic is really the focal point and what makes it exciting. Your idea-- realist fiction where one or two characters just happen to practice magic-- sounds like a very good one. I'd love to read it, myself.

The Mage roleplaying game from White Wolf Studios could also be a good introduction, if you can find some people to play with. First and foremost, it's a game, so they have to integrate things like the ability to blow your enemies to smithereens with fireballs. But otherwise, certain of the concepts struck me as right on:

1) Magic works as a result of belief.

2) The overwhelming belief in "reality" by the masses keeps things functioning more or less the way they are, most of the time. That's what keeps people from "believing" they can fly without assistance, or that they can turn into a dragon, and having it just work.

3) The more "coincidentally" you work your magic, the more likely it is to work. Striking someone down with lightning from a clear sky goes so directly against the consensual reality beliefs that it's well-nigh impossible for most, but arranging matters so te gets zapped every time te uses anything remotely electrical might be quite easy (don't know, never tried).

4) There are many different levels to existence, and there are some things, creatures, or people which exist on a less-physical basis. I call them Non-Corporeal Persons, or NCP's when I'm feeling flip. In Mage, they're perfectly real, they just exist in a world which overlaps this one in a way our minds can't really conceptualize very well.

5) Magic works differently depending on how the practitioner, and the surrounding culture, believes it works. If you're writing about magic, the less you dictate as an omniscient narrator about how and why it works, and the more (up to a point) you have the characters discuss their different views about it, the better-- in my opinion, anyway. A person who believes the way to get magic to work is by convincing the spirits to do things for you is just as right as a person who believes the way to do magic is to decide on the result you want, then transfer your consciousness through Hilbert space until you get to a world where what you want is reality. Person A, however, might have trouble working magic in a strange place where te is unfamiliar with the local spirits, at least until te's satisfied te's made a bargain with them.

I could say more, but that's five so I'll shut up now.
 
 
*
15:45 / 14.07.03
Hah! You thought I was serious about shutting up, didn't you? No, really, I just thought of something else. Charles de Lint does some really fantastic urban fantasy stories, especially his short story collections. Less high ritual, more paganism/shamanic tendencies than you might get here, and the short stories are a quick read. I started with Dreams Underfoot, as I recall.
 
 
Seth
05:54 / 15.07.03
Nothing yet in books or film or TV or music has done anything for me except make me gag or rage.

Music is magic. If you're looking for some fascinating takes on all things magico-religious then you could do no worse than check out Saul Williams, Lift to Experience, KLF, Boredoms/Voordoms, John Cage, Alan Moore & Tim Perkins, GY!BE, Steve Reich and Acid Mothers Temple to name but a few that spring instantly to mind. Each of these either displays an awareness of things spiritual or use magical techniques in their music, both live and recorded.
 
 
C.Elseware
15:21 / 15.07.03
Tim Powers. Especially "Last Call". Which has people deliberatly aligning themselves (and being aligned) with various archetypes, mostly from the tarot.

Ties in nicely with the lyrics to "Shape of my Heart" by Sting (warning: annoying pop-ups).

On the flip side I *really* fucking hate stuff with a chosen one. It's not about skill or hard work, it's about destiny. If you ain't the chosen one then you never can be. Dune, The Matrix (rehashed), Star Wars, Harry Potter. It's the magical equivalent of little girls hoping that they're really a princess in a fairy kingdom. Or waiting for their prince. It all teaches kids to wait and tread water and sooner or later a droid with a message will show up, or they'll get a message from Morpheus or they will discover an secret passage etc.

I really dislike that in the new Star Wars movies, it's all about birth and destiny even more than 4-6. At least ANYBODY could be Han Solo, just by being good at what you do and balancing honour and pragmatism. Jango Fett is the best actual role model in the thing so far. Well, maybe Amidala.

The same goes for the Matrix. Neo is just lucky. Not interesting or brilliant, he was just born that way. Fuck that shit.

Anything worthwhile has to be worked for, raw talent only gets you off the starting block quicker, and can often work against you as you get used to coasting and lack discipline.

So maybe I'm saying that I like media where will and ability triumphs rather than destiny/luck. Media which teaches that what happens to you is a real (not moral) consequence of your actions. For example I really like 28 days later because the main characters are pretty sensible, and make good decisions, rather than the classic "lets all split up" of the 80's teen horrror movie.

I don't quite hold with all the white wolf mage magick view, but it's got some good points. Ask anybody who doesn't believe that belief creates the world what would happen if everybody but you stopped believing in money. They're just bits of worthless paper. The government can't really exchange them for gold, and if it could, what could you do with gold?

sorry, that was all a bit rambling.
 
 
Seth
20:41 / 15.07.03
You're just grumpy because you're not the Chosen One. What are your memories of Sports Day?
 
 
Sha Jotaro
21:00 / 15.07.03
Errrr... heh.
Would you believe that I've been getting a bit of magickal inspiration from anime? ^_^
 
 
Salamander
02:30 / 16.07.03
There was a book I read by the name of The Toxic Spell Dump, can't remember the author though. It wasn't right on the money, but it was extremely entertaining none the less. The main charecter worked for the EPA, and among the big plot line of the book, he was continuosly setting aside a case he had to evaluate, in which Irish settlers in the boroney of angels in california wanted to import leprauchons, but truley I'd have to echo Quantum, the only true to life representation of magick is in comic books, which is ironic.
 
 
Quantum
08:40 / 16.07.03
"Help me Elseware, you're my only hope...fzzt...Help me Elseware, you're my only hope...fzzt..."
 
 
Ex
15:11 / 16.07.03
Thank you all hugely for the reading list, the listening list (set, ta very much), and the gaming ideas - I'll be digging into it all forthwith. And may I slap myself lightly for not mentioning comics in my original post?

Illmatic: Fiction wise, I'd like to see some gritty mages in urban setting there's not much out there that mixes this kind of day to day living in the here and now.

I'll try to rustle some up. The swine of it is that I'd like magick to be a strong element, but not result in plunging the characters (for example) into a mystical world (befriending unicorns out of the question) - which sticks it somewhere between genres, I feel. But I will resolutely not think about genres, and marketability, while writing. Oh no.

Entitything - thanks for the reading suggestions:
Okay. Are you trying to portray magic realistically? Or just differently from other fiction?

I'm not sure I can get it 'realistic', partly just because of the disputes as to the nature of it - but I hope respectfully, partly drawing on established traditions, and without making too many magick-users wince. Thanks for your general theories, they made me think. I'm fond of belief creating reality; I like theories that reality's discursively constructed.

Elseware: On the flip side I *really* fucking hate stuff with a chosen one.

Grrrr. Yes. It does rather pull the rug from ones efforts. Happens in a lot of 'supernatural' children's fiction - I loved The Dark is Rising, but when I realised I wasn't going to be an Old One (just a pretentious 9-year-old), I was cheesed off. At least there are plucky supporting roles for the ordinary mortals in that series.
Maybe kid's fiction promises revelations of hidden identity as a metaphor for growing up - but you don't generally just "discover" who you are, you partly determine it.
And the Matrix was doing the same thing at a much later age - which felt even more limiting - hang on in there, and you might still be able to have your identity handed to you on a plate! Even if you're 36 and a half!

Enough griping - as most people have stayed pleasantly positive. I've just read Tamora Pierce's The Magic in the Weaving and although a bit twee and obvious (four kids living in a semi-mediaeval society), it provided a nice blend of innate ability (the kids have an affinity for plants, weather, weaving or metalwork), structured learning, meditation and hard work.
 
  
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