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We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:27 / 11.07.03
I have received PMs from two people today, both of whom I've recently had spats with on the board. One of them went out of their way to tell me that we are not friends merely because we both posted to this board, the other made it clear that basically we are.

My assumption would always be the latter - but I suppose I should have realised that there are other ways of looking at on-board interactions and the nature of the community here - and of online relationships more generally: do you have to meet and know someone in the flesh to call them 'friend'?

Opinions?
 
 
angel
11:38 / 11.07.03
I maybe being quite naieve here but I have always thought friendship and acquaintance, online or otherwise, is deliniated by the level of experienced "connection" or "sychronicity in beliefs" or "mutual respect". But that is possibly just how I value/quantify my friendships.

For me it usually takes a good few positive exchanges in threads and some PMs, or a meet up and good connection IRL for someone to change from an acquaintance to a friend.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:45 / 11.07.03
I think time's an element. I wouldn't refer to the majority of people who post here as friends. I might say that I respect them and in quite a lot of cases quite like them but they're generally not my friends. I count a friend as someone I can phone up casually without any type of arrangement at all and there are only three or four people here who I'd feel happy ringing in that way. On the other hand I've been in contact with someone I've never met IRL via the Internet for eight years and I would definitely call her a friend.

Basically I rather think that you can ignore the act of meeting someone in the flesh but only to a certain extent. Friendship takes many forms and it's something that needs to be approached individually *blah blah mindless chatter and startlingly humdrum cliches*.
 
 
that
11:50 / 11.07.03
I don't think that posting on the same messageboard makes people friends, any more than, say, going to the same college. There might be a sense of...comradeship on some small level, I guess, even with people you don't know terribly well on the board, as long as you don't actively dislike them (I am reminded of the time when someone I didn't know told their brother to leave off tormenting me because she and I went to the same school - school uniforms can be a useful thing), but actual friendship is a different matter. Friendships are more than respect, sharing the same 'space', or casual acquaintance. But no, I don't think you have to have met someone in the flesh to call them friend. I think you can get to know people very well online - in some cases better than you can when the relationship has never been mediated by text. Some of the best friendships I've ever had have started out online, and some continue in that vein, even, in some cases, after 7 or 8 years of never having met in the flesh.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:00 / 11.07.03
I'm slightly surprised you are asking the question, Nick. No, you don't need to meet someone to call them a friend. Posting on the same board gives you a common interest and perhaps highlights a common set of beliefs. That isn't quite friendship.

Having a few good chats is not quite enough, although, as in real life, it is up to you where to draw the line and call someone a friend rather than an acquaintance. I imagine you've interacted for quite some time with the people who PMed you, and may have good reasons for calling them friends. Having said that, there is no default position to take here.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
12:23 / 11.07.03
Have you never met the people in question IRL at all, or is it simply that you have more contact with them virtually than actually, so that you mainly encounter them on the board?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:42 / 11.07.03
Lurid - the question about IRL meetings looks like a no-brainer, I agree. But since I was questioning some assumptions anyway...

No, I couldn't say I've had a huge amount of interaction with either of the people who PM'd me - it's just that my default position would be to assume that we should proceed on the basis of friendship - or, maybe better, 'comradeship': a posit that we have more in common than we do in opposition. And this morning, on the one hand, I had a message which confirmed that, and on the other, one which actively disagreed. So here we are.

Whisky - since the only people I could honestly say I know offboard are you, Haus, and Tom - with the additions of Fist of Fun and Angharad on the rare occasions when they post - I think we may conclude that these are people with whom I have had little or no real life contact. Beyond that, I think it's appropriate to keep this abstract.
 
 
Sax
13:03 / 11.07.03
You mean... you're not my friends? My best friends? B-but I'd told my mum I'd finally found people who liked me...

Hmmm. It's a difficult one. When you spend a lot of time on-line you do get to know people - or at least certain facets of them that they want you to see. Having only met one other Barbeloid very briefly in a pub once, I wouldn't go as far as "friends", although if I met some of you in real life on a regular basis I'm sure it would go that way.

If you liked me, of course.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:07 / 11.07.03
or at least certain facets of them that they want you to see.

And other facets of them that may not exist, but that you want to see in them. I'd imagine it's far easier to do that here than IRL.

You'll always be more than just a friend to me, Sax.
*puts binoculars away, shimmies down tree*
 
 
pomegranate
15:30 / 11.07.03
i have often compared the way i feel about people on message boards to coworkers. because you don't always like them, (altho' some do you, certainly) but you feel somewhat interested in their lives cos you hear little snippets about them here and there. (or way too much, in the case of my pity party post.)
 
 
Whisky Priestess
15:50 / 11.07.03
Nick: whoa, chill there!

I'm not fishing to find out who the people in question are, because a) it's none of my business, and b) I don't particularly care. Also, I have no idea how many of the other posters you know or have met offboard, so I can't conclude anything from that (lack of) knowledge. I'm not, in fact, making any assumptions.

I was just asking the question because to have met someone in person even once would (for me at least) put the relationship on a different, more intimate footing.

But thanks for spelling my name right. This is indeed the mark of a friend.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:03 / 11.07.03
Didn't think you were fishing, just couldn't actually answer the question without ruling people out or in - like the BBC.

So the IRL thing does something for some of us. Or at least, for Whisky.
 
 
that
16:18 / 11.07.03
Oh, there's a lot to be said for RL - I'd never deny that. The two formats...I dunno...offer different *ways* to know people, somehow - people tell each other stuff online that they might be more reticent about in RL, but meatspace interfacing has another quality altogether... immediacy, detail, proximity... To use a limited and heterocentric example, and widen the net a bit, I suspect that's why most people meet up with their online lovers for a bit before marrying 'em. You don't get to see people's annoying habits online (except the textual ones). You can be friends with someone online - you can even commit to them - but you can't be sure that you can actually bear to be around them for any length of time until you've tried it in RL.
 
 
Mazarine
20:29 / 11.07.03
Well, I'm in kind of a different postion in that I interact with very few people outside of work or here. There are one or two people on the board who I'd go so far as to call friends, but I tend to be extremely conservative with that term in real life as well. I've never knowingly met a Barbelither in real life, and while there's some kinship inherent in posting on the same board, there's not that much shared experience. Plus, who knows, if I met one of you in real life, we might find one anothers' laughter incredibly grating.
 
 
—| x |—
07:18 / 12.07.03
…friendship and acquaintance, online or otherwise, is delineated by the level of experienced "connection" or "synchronicity in beliefs" or "mutual respect".

I think this is a reasonable view of friendships, but not necessarily complete. I mean, I can consider people acquaintances without a synchronicity of beliefs—in certain cases friends need not share too much of my belief structure, but they are still friends. I do certainly think that “mutual respect” has much to do with positive relations between people, and perhaps this is a part of what Nick meant when he remarked that his “assumption would always be the latter.” I find myself trying to patient with people and hear who they are—to try to let them speak for themselves as much as I can without “hearing” what my mind’s illusions are. I find that often this allows for an easy relation with even people I’ve only just met. I mean, it doesn’t always work smoothly because some people have attitudes and figure you’ve an attitude and maybe you pick up a bit of one ‘cause give and take is naturally in equal shares of energy, yah? & it takes effort and unbalanced energy to not buy into or succumb to something you perhaps are but not all that often and perhaps feel guilty or not so much that but merely question your motivations, but if you play the attitude game, which can be difficult not to, then you start neglecting both yourself and the other: you each start making masks and layers to the communication and interaction, and it isn’t who anyone is anymore, or at least not really or hopefully not: there’s always assholes, though. Oops, a bit of a long rant-style sentence there, please forgive.

I mean, be receptive to people when you can and it opens up a world of shared communication, knowledge exchange, and self-other exploration. I try to act as if we’ve all got something to learn from one and other, which means that we also have to figure out what it is that we teach. I think this sort of attitude towards people leads to acquaintances in many instances, but will easily hit on “kindred” or closely related “spirits” pretty quick. I also feel that it is not particular to IRL or online circumstance. I mean, we are relating to one and other in our interaction regardless, and we are interpreting both ourselves and each other to one and other, and hoping for the best—I hope. I mean, it’s self-other exploration, and I prefer if its friendly and respectable. Of course, there are some lessons that need to be learned from an “adversary” or “enemy,” but I think, in some strange way and in particular circumstances (ones not ignorant, but willful, controlled and conscious, say) there is also deep love and respect in and for our adversaries. I mean, if you don’t respect and keep a skillful eye on your satan, then you’re not gaining what is there to be gleaned from your satan.

Wrt the topic at hand, I think of some people here as friends, some as acquaintances, some as “allies” but not all necessarily friends nor acquaintances, a majority of the members are mostly strangers to me—people I’ve “seen around” or “met in passing” or “heard talking across the room,” if ya’ get my drift, and of course, I certainly think I’ve had at least one satan, and have also had a fair share of disagreements and posturing with some others—but that doesn’t mean I don’t respect at least some of these people, and others I might even care for quite dearly, even though I have never met them IRL and only know them from a handful of interactions or what not. I think I agree with Lurid in that there isn’t really a standard, but only instances, relations, and interactions/reactions. We all get to choose, really.

I mean, I think there are several members that I would enjoy meeting IRL, but that doesn’t necessarily keep me from feeling close to them within the context of this community. I know five other members IRL: my partner K (who reads often and posts very little), my friend T up in the Chuck (but from the Dead Rear) who has spent some stretches of time here, from time to time, and I met three out in Vancouver: two who have become friends and I’ve spent some good and fun time with, and one who bought my Surreal zine on the street, and who I figured was a decent chap and had a quick conversation with, and then only later did we find out (back on the board) that we had each met another Litherland member. I would say that this fellow would certainly fall under the “ally” category. As well, if I had the chance to meet up with him if I am out in Van again, I would gladly do so.

Anyway, I’ve blathered on about this for awhile now—I’ll let you get to someone else’s POV.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:49 / 12.07.03
Hell, a friend's not a friend until you've trapped them in your basement and slowly and methodically starved them over a period of weeks so that, dazed and disorientated, you can imprint them onto a new consensus reality based on the supremacy of Vanilla Coke and sent them off into the world to create havoc and destruction!
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:02 / 12.07.03
Really?

*shimmies back up tree, loads tranquiliser gun*
 
 
Jub
07:23 / 14.07.03
Hm. I know what you mean Nick; there seems to be a tacit understanding on Barbelith which is similar to how one treats one's friends. However, the gulf between the two is quite large I'd say, not in measuring friendship (because how can you do this anyway?) but in the form it takes.

I always refer to Lithers to my RL friends as "my pretend friends" not because I don't value and enjoy whiling away my (usually work) hours with you, but because owing to the medium of the community, one has a greater degree of control (eg leaving the board for a few days).
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
11:39 / 14.07.03
I'm more or less opposite to Anna in that I *do* consider people on here, even the majority of who which I've never met, friends, certainly to the extent that if someone on here asked me to do something that didn't particularly put me out any then I'd probably do it for them.

Like that lovely Nigerian poster we had that was trying to get money out of his country, I happily sent him my life savings and my kidney and am sure that any day now I'll get my reward... and a new kidney.
 
 
Sax
06:09 / 15.07.03
I think it was Haus who once said that just because someone agrees with you and supports you in a Barbelith thread, it doesn't mean they're your friend, but similarly just because someone locks horns with you it doesn't follow that they are your sworn enemy for life. Or words to that effect.

And get down from my goddam tree, Dupre.
 
  
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