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Underground > Comic Books >

The origins of indie comics?

11:14 / 11.07.03

over on another thread Lull said

"what i am trying to say is that without the superhero books, the indie books you herald would not be around,"

So what do people think of this assertion?

Lull - would you care to expand on it a bit and identify the specifics of the links between superheros and indie books?

11:54 / 11.07.03

Two words: Krazy Kat.

To elaborate: George Herriman's work was and is a massive influence on a great deal of undergrounds in the 70s and 80s all the way through to now. For example, Charles Burns and Chris Ware (who both got a start in Raw! in the 80s) have both cited Herriman as an influence, as recently as last week (at the Comica event)

Krazy Kat has never been a superhero, or even done in the superhero idiom.

Love & Rockets' Jaime Hernandez takes as much influence from Archie Comics as he does from Steve Ditko and Alex Toth -- in terms of his actual narrative, considerably more so.

Yes, superhero comics are often more iconic and therefore ingrained in popular culture to a somewhat deeper extent than a lot of newspaper strips are or were, but I still doubt that they've had a bigger influence. Equal, maybe, but not greater.

Moriarty can probably provide better citations than me though, because he has a much more in depth knowledge of this stuff.

12:10 / 11.07.03

Oh, and now that I've found the context of Lull's post here:

"i like barbelith because it appears to have intelligent people speaking about a form of media that i love and i hope will always love. i dont "get" why there is such anti-superhero ethics here tho. i understand that a lot of superhero books are shite but surely so are a lot of films, music and every other medium. what i am trying to say is that without the superhero books, the indie books you herald would not be around, because i feel that an industry that is in such trouble would not survive without the superhero books. so therefore i find it strange you have such disregard for something you actually need to exist."

I may have to reconsider my answer, since the comment was orginall made in an entirely different context, and not about the origins of comics, at all. Which may derail a thread about the origins of comics, but context is important, and being quoted in the correct context is, at the very least, courteous.

So:

First of all, there isn't an "anti-superhero ethic" on Barbelith. There are loads of threads about superhero comics and movies on here. There are also loads of threads, recently, about non-superhero comics, too.

The real crux of what Lull said is whether or not there is a sustainable market in the comics industry without the superhero comics. Which is, frankly, something that gives me far too much of a headache to think about.

12:48 / 11.07.03

Context might be important if we were continuing the thread about the survival or otherwise of the comic industry or even on any percieved elites on barbelith that are pro or anti superhero comics. But its not. This is a seperate if divergent thread leading on from something Lull said in another.

As such i don't think the question of context is terribly relevant. But i could be wrong

what does everyone else think?

13:11 / 11.07.03

I think it is important, because it changes the nature of the statement.

As quoted in the thread opener, Lull's statement is difficult to defend. Kooky points out that Herriman and Archie contributed to the developement of the indies, to which I'll add Mad, the work of Bill Gaines and indeed the whole EC banner, western comics, romance comics and all of the other then-mainstream, non-superhero genres that did perfectly well, thank you very much, on the Hey Kids! rack up to the '70s. Unless I'm way off the mark, France has done quite well with little to no superhero work. Ever been to a comic shop in France? Huge rows of beautiful hardcover books, browsed by more classes and cultures than you'll ever see in an American shop (at least). Without those books our indies may not be around. SH books, then, play only a part in the history of indies, which would, based on the French Connection, probably still be here without them.

But in context, Lull's point is an entirely different one, which is that as the market currently stands, SH books do duty not only as the crutch, but also the blood pressure medication, colostomy bag and aspirin for the industry. This, sadly, is an arguable point. We can go round this one all week, and it's not the point of the thread.

But yer, I agree with KM that pointing out the original quote is at the very least polite - while jumping off from the quoted line is perfectly reasonable, presenting it as a whole statement is less so, because it, erm, isn't.

13:22 / 11.07.03

Word, Videodrome.

Also, one can't discount the huge impact that Japanese comics have had on the American comic-buying public, especially all the women who got into comics through anime and manga. Again, not specifically superheroic, since there are several genres. Although, for example, Rumiko Takahashi's Inyu-Yasha is definitely comparable to Buffy the Vampire Slayer (which is pretty superheroic in execution); it's not the be-all and end-all of Japanese comics. Romance features largely in manga, and comics like Peach Girl seem to have as much of an influence on people like Chynna Clugston-Major and Jill Thompson as the Archies and old EC comics.

13:37 / 11.07.03

fair enough, I stand corrected. I should probably have placed a link in the opening thread to the old one too.

Mister Six, whom all the girls

14:30 / 11.07.03

Interesting thread.

I strongly recommend that you both watch comic book confidential if you can find it or have not seen it. Very interesting history on comics.

As a note: Westerns and romances were mainstream at the time of their inception. Kirby and Simon actually did the first big Romance book for DC and then a TON of westerns as well. In the 50's, superhero books died the slow death, with only Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman (as well as Captain America and Shazam-/Captain Marvel to some strange extent) seeing publication from the rough and tumble war years into what became a market run by talking animals, westerns and kiddie comics.

I believe Mad broke the mold and Crumb tore through into the counter culture with Indies. But I could be wrong. Most of my info on that comes from Comic Book Confidential.

15:35 / 11.07.03

One of the interesting things that copmic book confidential brings up is how the indies of the 70s really were underground in the sense that they used an alternative method of distribution to both superhero and mainstream press...

23:55 / 11.07.03

To be honest, I don't think we have the information to honestly answer the question whether superhero comics are the life-blood of the comic industry. I propose that the unspoken implication is that the distribution network of comic shops would fall without the sales of superhero comics and related material. Without a distribution network, no books would get out therefore no indie line that survives off of the network made for the superhero books.

The trouble is can we really be sure that indie comics are beholden to the current network?

As others have referenced, the late 60s/early 70s underground comics were sold through head shops, record stores, and only some of the nascent comic shops. It's possible that the extinction of the superhero comics would merely be the impetus for those indie comics to move to a new distribution network. These indie publishers have greater flexibilty to move their product to new distributors. They certainly aren't beholden to the bookstore conglomerates yet. Granted, many creators might disappear but the indie comics could - emphasis on could - survive.

To really answer the question, you'd need to know what type of products and their genre keep comic shops afloat, who are the major sellers of the indie comics, who distributes the indie comics and to who are they linked, and who's buying the indie comics. Again, a lot of data that I don't think is accessible just yet.

Mister Six, whom all the girls

14:25 / 12.07.03

In a big sense, no, we can't tell.

But we could always ask our local shop what they sell the most of, yes?