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Underground > Switchboard >

federalism

22:22 / 11.11.01

I don't know if this happens in Australia, but in New Zealand, people talk a lot about whether or no we should all be the same country (the answer is invariably no), doubly so in the face of the whole anythingjohnhowardtouchedinthelastthreemonths sagas - boat people, ansett, etc.
I was wondering, though, and this is pertinent to people in europe too:

what's the biggest advantage that outweighs the biggest diadvantage?

like, we lose our own sovereignty and become a kind of stae parliament, and we get our 12 senators and minimum of five in the house of representatives, and then...?

then, are there advantages that aren't economic? I can't really think of any, and if that's all there are, then, isn't that a stink reason to give your soverignty away? But, isn't soveignty a dumb concept? I mean, if you live in a square country in the middle of a desert thrown together in a conference in Paris in 1930, how much would your soverignty matter, when you're such a random nation?

--m

The Return Of Rothkoid

07:56 / 12.11.01

I was under the impression (at least, when I was last living down there) that any plans would be to make travel and relations between the two countries easier, not to remove soverignity. Besides; if one becomes a republic and ejector-seats from the Commonwealth before the other, won't that put a pretty effective kybosh on the idea anyway? I think easier relations between the two would be a good idea, but know that, like Canada and the US, the two becoming one big mass probably wouldn't happen because of the strength of national identity in both places.

I vaguely recall a news story some time ago that seemed to indicate that the Australian government was trying to make it harder for NZers to get benefits, etc, in Australia, too - more of Howard's "we ain't no free ride" polemic, mayhap?

(aside: I was under the impression that there were more hands in the Ansett fuckup than just Howard's. (Hello, Ron Brierley, you fuck?) So he's not entirely responsible there, I believe...)

Besides; I think Australian government has to lose a tier somewhere before it'll start working properly anyway, won't it?

I'm not sure about the advantages or disadvantages; but from when I was living in Auckland (end of the Lange era, I think; Rogernomics et al) I seemed to recall that NZ's economic growth was outperforming everyone else in the area like a motherfucker - is that still the case?

19:43 / 12.11.01

the thing is, whther it's implicit or explicit, some sort of self-determination is lost, just because of the relative size. (20 vs 4 million).
Sovereignty is a messy word to use, I know. I'm not sure how we can add national identity into this, because I can speak for New Zealand when I say that ours is I think, transitional - somehwere between subset of 'Britain' and actual realisation of our position, so I would say that one or both of us would need to accept the reality of republicanism first*.
I guess what it also says is that most people think it's all for the benefit of New Zealand, like when you give coins to a leper in the street. We get to live with AUSTRALIA, and how great is that? But, what do we give in return? Not in the sense of pulling our weight, but more of what do we have to offer such a union? I think Australia would do it as some sort of pity thing, going 'we're so benevolent', and could even add some condescention into it. Maybe it's what it would be like to be scottish?

additonally: which tier has to go?

--m

*don't get me started...

(ansett - it was a dog when they bought it, allegedly without full access to info on the financial state/the people who owned it before that also own quite a bit of aust media, of course nobody's going to tell you the truth - it's no use blaming the new zealand government for not wanting air nz to keep it, it nearly shut two airlines down.)

The Return Of Rothkoid

09:47 / 13.11.01

Mike: like I say, I hear that it was more Ron Brierley, less NZ government that fucked with Ansett. Just like he did with the Auckland Sun, IIRC.

Which tier? State, possibly. But I'm not entirely sure how it'd be effected.

As for the condescension thing; what the fuck? I don't think I've mentioned anything other than ease of restrictions between the two. I hardly think it's condescending for both governments to recognise that a shitload of red tape between two countries less than three hours' flight away is better off hacked out. I think the leper idea's painting it a bit thick, to be frank; I think it'd be for mutual ease, nothing more, and would only go forward, obviously, if both thought it was a fair go. I'm imagining something similar to the loosening of travel restrictions/controls within the EU, really; I'm pretty sure that anything else would be a too-big can of worms at this point.

I don't think Australia's anywhere different in determining its national identity than NZ is - if anything, you guys are one up on us inasmuch as Maori culture is a lot more accepted by the community than Australian Aboriginal culture/lifestyle is. We can't even get our shit together there on a basic level. I believe Australia will end up a republic eventually - when the right model for it comes along. I'm pretty sure that's why it died a death at the referendum a couple of years ago: nobody was particularly keen on the plans that were given.

09:47 / 13.11.01

Another disadvantage, and the main problem I have with the EU, is the bigger these institutions get, the more diluted 'democracy' becomes; the more detached the legislative is.