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Angelic Politics: The Dark Side of the Coin

 
  

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Spyder Todd 2008
23:54 / 03.07.03
Okay, so a lot of talk about the Kabbala and stuff around here has made me think. I've been doing a massive amount of research on Angels in the last six months for a sepcial project of mine. Basically, I've come to two conclusions. First, most angels are not "perfect angels". Almost every angel I've come upon (almost 200) has a dark side, I hidden story where they broke the rules. And secondly, Heaven and Hell are bureaucracies.
So, my post is basically about this: who else has looked into the different mythologies of Heaven and Hell? What were you're conclusions about them? About the angels and deamons that populate them? I'll add more later. I've got so much research, if anyone wants to talk about any specific angel/demon, I can probably post what I know.
 
 
LVX23
01:49 / 04.07.03
HAve you checked out The Preacher by Garth Ennis?
 
 
Quantum
13:09 / 04.07.03
The Peacock angel, whose name I forget (Melekaus?) I'd like to know more about that dude- he has a cult following who don't wear purple...

Preacher does have a good take on it, the film Prophecy ditto. Lots of good stuff in Sandman too, but check out the Lucifer spinoff of that for ace angel/demon stuff.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
13:49 / 04.07.03
So far I've only read the first ten or so issues of Precher. My plan is to buy the collected series after I finish my collection of Sandman. Mind you, I've read all of Sandman, but anyway...
Here's the first thing that comes to my mind with your enquiry, Q. The angel/demon Adramelechk,King of Fire. He's 8th of the 10 archdemons, grand minister and Chancellor of the Order of the Fly (Beelzebub's order). He manifests as either a mule or a Peacock. Also, he was know as Anu, Moloch, and connected with Asmadai. I'll see what else I have on him.
 
 
ciarconn
13:50 / 04.07.03
Talking about angels and comics, do you know DC´s Phantom stranger?
There are several explanations of who he is. The one I like more is that he is one of the "neutral" angels, who didn´t side with God or Lucifer at The Rebelion, so they were exiled by God to Earth.

About bureacucracy, yeah, angels are divided into strict levels, and that seems to come from jewish beliefs, even before Christians
 
 
_Boboss
14:28 / 04.07.03
yeah you know these things are just projections of yourself tho right? it helps to behave *as if* they're real, but they're not. if heaven looks like a bureacracy to you, maybe you've been in the office too long.
 
 
cusm
17:24 / 04.07.03
I've been thinking about something similar recently, actually. First off, given that Gods, Angels and Demons are in essence the same classification of being in different genres, these beings personify a particular aspect of being as their core essence. This aspect is what defines them, their will, and how they interact with others. This aspect is absolute, such that it includes not only the beneficial applications, but also the sinister. Thus angels and demons are actually the same being, just viewed from a different perspective. The excess and cruel sides of their aspect are included in what they are, so a goddess of fertility is also in different circumstances a goddess of lust, overabundance, and the darwinian detachment of her children to allow the weak to be destroyed by the stronger. So too is it with angels that they are their demonic counterparts when put in the position to act in such a way. Good or mailign, they continue to act within their sphere. It is only us who view them from the position of heaven or hell that defines how they relate to us.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
22:51 / 04.07.03
I'd say there's merit to that, cusm.
What I've been researching is basically the historic mythologies of angles and demons. I really don't worry about the validity of their existence; to me, all gods, devils, angles and demons are all the same basic thing(s). So I guess I'm interested more in the anthropology of it all. How have they been viewed over the centuries? That's what I really ask myself.

Q, I haven't found much else for you. There's no reference to Melekaus anywhere I can find. I tried a few modified spellings as well, didn't come up with much. If you have any brilliant ideas, I'd be happy to check up on them. Meanwhile, I'll keep looking.
 
 
JoeCrow
10:13 / 05.07.03
Believe he's talking about Melek Ta'us. Peacock Angel of the Yezidis, a fairly odd cult mostly found in the mountains of Afghanistan and environs. Generally believed to be another name for Shaitan/Iblis/El Diablo. There's not a lot of reliable info on Yezidi beliefs, they're fairly militantly anti-literate, and very isolationist. What info there is suggests a remnant Gnostic cult, with lots of odd prohibitions and wierd bits that nobody remembers the reason for. Kind of a "worshipping the Lord of This World" trip.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:42 / 05.07.03
Isn't there anyone who doesn't subscribe to the 'Dadaist playground' view of magick posting here any more?
 
 
Kiss My Apocalips
14:44 / 05.07.03
Well, that´s quite a big issue.

Ok, the history of angels.
You´ll have to check out the Enumah Elish, the Sumerian Genesis, on which the hebrew old-testament Book Moses 1 is based (or better: ripped off). It is much more detailed and in certain parts very antagonistic to the biblical Genesis.
Let´s jump-cut to the sequences of importance. The Fall. There´s not much about the explicit reason behind the fall of angels in the bible. In Moses 1, 6:2 there is a passage, wherein the “sons of god” are mentioned, who took wives amongst the daughters of men, i.e. they interbred with mankind. There is also talk about the “giants on earth”. [Sorry, I have only my german language version at hand, so I am unable to deliver proper quotations.]

What´s to make of that? “Sons”? The early clerics were disturbed by this term as well, so they created the “angels” to avoid illogic in their doctrines. But in Old Testament there is absolutely no use of the word “angels” at all. In old hebrew texts they were called “bene-ha-elohim”. Sons of the lord. They were strangely also called “Watchers” and “Nephilim”.
You won´t find answers to that mystery in the Book of Moses, you´ll have to turn to one of the apocryphical texts, the cryptic “Book of Enoch”. Here, the Watchers meet in conspiracy to swear to each other to go down to earth and “do the great work”. Said “work” is the impregnation of human women – but that´s not all. Main purpose is the teaching and education of the spawn. Amongst those “heavenly arts” were the “teaching of sorcery” , “knowledge of every plant, herb and medicine on earth”, “understanding the celestial secrets”, “knowledge about wind, fire and air”, “the signs of sun & moon”, “making of gold”, “making of steel” etc. Add to this advanced agriculture, architecture, (holy) geometry, art, music(k), mathematics and – words, alphabets and writing. In the book of Enoch is a neverending list of names of these “angels” and the special skills they are connected with.

The cause for the downcast of the “rebellious” angels was mainly, that they revolted against the suppressive, totalitarian régime of the monotheistic deity jahwe – by bringing knowledge to the herd of human sheep, giving them the tools at hand to become godlike themselves.

The Nephilim – prior to their fall – were something like an elite military strike force for the lord, a sort or “executive” of divine rage. They maimed everything which stood in the way of jahwe. There are many old testament passages, wherein jahwe sends two angels, who rock everything into the ground [some seti-freaks claim that angels are a synonym for nuclear weapons…] They took the roles of messengers as well.

But more interesting is the fact that in the Elumah Elish, there is no “lord”. Angels and lords were the same. There is the tale about a cosmic battle between two main forces, two god-kings: Enlil and Enki. Enki later became the satan-archetype, Enlil mutated into jahwe/jehova. But depending on dogma or cultural change, in some regions it was also vice-versa.
Some perceive them as benign creatures, as helpers and guardians. Some perceive them as demons, devils and harbingers of evil.
 
 
osymandus
22:31 / 05.07.03
If anyones got info on Asmodel that would be intresting as well. As far as ive have worked out , it seems to have been the ruler of the Cheripum , then cast down (i dont believe in the fall ?) for a crime ? Also you have refernces to Michael defeating a bull (Asmodel has become linked with the the Star Sign Taurus , i think thats a dark angels add on(not just a DC comics one !!) !)and buring him benath the earth . The Minotaur story of greek myth where its is buried in an underground laberinth.

As fpor what KMA is refering to ive also heard of that and thought it was the Igigie (phonteic spelling !) who sired the Nephelim who we're the giant demi-gores of legend (including Goliath, and the multiheaded giants Legion and Bereious ??)
 
 
cusm
00:20 / 06.07.03
I believe there is reference to the Nephelim being heros as well as monsters, and that the lot of them were wiped out by the flood (as one major reason for the flood, to get rid of all the pesky demi-gods wandering around).

Other sources I recommend looking into are the Chaldean Genesis (to go along with the Sumerian, the Chaldean is the Babaloynian what with the story of Tiamat and all, and more good bits swallowed into the biblican Genesis) and the Zorastrian teachings. Many of the angels found their origin in Zorastrian writings and prophesy, with huge swaths of Zorastrianism finding their way into what bacame more cannonical Hebrew over time.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
19:43 / 06.07.03
Gods I can't believe I didn't see that. Melek Ta'us, of course! And I was just reading Top10!
Everything Apocalips and pals have said is correct as far as I knw. The basic fact of the matter is that judeism grew directly out of zorastrainism, and thus christianity and islam as well.

Alexander, here's my initial stuff for ya.
Asmodeus, name means creature of Judgement. A persian demon, considered a "raging fiend". Responsible for killing 7 of Sarah's 8 bridegroms. He was exiled to upper Egypt by the high-angel Rapheal, and later went to Hell. Son of Sammeal(the Adversary, to some) and Lilith. Also refurred to as Saturn (which in this case is referring to the Titan, not the planet), Marcolf and Morcolf.
I'll see what else I can find, although Gabriel is chief of the Order of Cherebim. Interestingly, Asmodeus is refured to as a Satan. A Satan is, traditionally, an angel/demon sent by God to test and tempt mankind. More when I have it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:39 / 06.07.03
The basic fact of the matter is that judeism grew directly out of zorastrainism, and thus christianity and islam as well.

*Stifles a fit of coughing*.

Really? I mean, directly? In the sense of Judaism being an offshot of Zoroastrianism? That seems arguable... you may wish to discuss the role of the Achaemenid state cult in your answer.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
00:59 / 07.07.03
Most of the early Hebrew traditions came right out of zorastrainism. The Achaemenid state cult was an off shot of zorastrainism, I checked. Maybe to say it was a direct desendent went a little far, but it's very easy to look at the 17 hymns and then look at the torah and the rest of the old testiment, and you see how close they are at points. But back to the point at hand.
 
 
_Boboss
07:29 / 07.07.03
let's take beelzebub lord of flies as an example. this comes from Baal, the happysad god of the canaanites [caananites?]. the christians, a rival cult 'demonised' this god simply because they preferred their own. people who had truck with baal would not be going to heaven, in christian theology, hence hell, hence baal-lovers go to hell, belzebub becomes a lord of hell. who honestly thinks those batshit mad as arseholes early christians should be taken as the authority on which spirits are bad and which good? it's all fuckin politics, stop wasting time arguing about arbitrary bits of scripture written by fully agenda'd-up people two thousand years ago. they were corrupt and bigoted like the christians today.

lucifer, the archbaddie of the christians, was called prometheus by the greeks, who venerated him because he was the friend and helper of humanity, even though it meant he was despised by their cruel and capricious 'good' gods. christians didn't dig this because they had their own beliefs that they were mad fanboyish about and would believe and promote to the point of violence and general pathology.

it's not real! satan is your poo and your anger, and lucifer is your innovative tendencies, but neither of them live in a big burning hole underground. call them demons only if you want them to behave demonically.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
12:38 / 07.07.03
Yeah, that's pretty much it, actually. But it's still fun to look at the hypcrisy and stuff that the Christians made up. On a side note, way before the Greeks Lucifer was actually the love goddess Isthar. Strange but true...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:28 / 07.07.03
Most of the early Hebrew traditions came right out of zorastrainism. The Achaemenid state cult was an off shot of zorastrainism, I checked. Maybe to say it was a direct desendent went a little far.

Yes, into the world of being wrong. What you can say is that there appears to be a change in the way that the Jews conceived of their God at about the time that Cyrus allowed the temple to be rebuilt. This may be connected to Zoroastrianism, or may simply be a result of cultural change as a result of a lenghty period of enforced separation form the previous ideas of Yahweh - no temple, no sacrifices, no battle against other tribes.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
19:15 / 07.07.03
So, by adapting different aspects of Zorastrainism into their religion and totally changing most of their rules and stories, they didn't basically recreate their religion how?
There was a form of Hebrew that existed before they were conquered a billion times, sure. But because of their adaptations from the surrounding religions, the Hebrew that came out of those conquerings looked little like the Hebrew it had once been. Am I making sense, or just rambling aimlessly? I might be wrong, but this is what I’ve learned from ancient history.
 
 
Quantum
10:28 / 08.07.03
talking about Melek Ta'us. Peacock Angel of the Yezidis, a fairly odd cult mostly found in the mountains of Afghanistan and environs.
Yup, that's the chap. In fact top ten is the only other place than Afghanistan I've found anything on him/it, which is why I ask.
*steps well back from Zoroastrian debate*
 
 
_Boboss
11:12 / 08.07.03
Peter lamborn wilson [hakim bey to ye and thee] has a chapter on the yezidi in his book Sacred Drift: Journeys on the margins of Islam.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
13:35 / 08.07.03
Interesting stuff out of the Yezidiz:
According to the Yezidiz, God created 7 angels, one for each day of the week, Ta'us Melek, the chief angel, was also know as 'Azazil. 'Azazil would morph into Azazel, a very powerful Judeo-Christian demon, and one of the Adversaries chieftains. Azazel was one of two angels that led a group of angels down to Earth to rape women. He was also one of the watchers (the Grigori). He taught humanity about weaponry, defense, and beauty.
Other similar angels between the two I found:
Sheikh Shams is referred to as Israfil, which is the name of an angel of judgment and music.
Sheikh Abu Bekr is know as Jibra'il, who is Gabriel.
Sajadin is known as the angel 'Azra'il, which is similar to Azarel, an angel of death among other things.
And Nasiru'd-Din is referred to as Shemna'il, very similar to another of the Grigori, Shamshiel, though this one might just be coincidence.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:52 / 08.07.03
So, by adapting different aspects of Zorastrainism into their religion and totally changing most of their rules and stories, they didn't basically recreate their religion how?

There's no entirely convincing evidence that the changes in Judaism were connected directly either to zoroastrianism or the Achaemenid religion that has certain elements common with Zoroastrianism. Certainly the religion was reorganised and the theology of Judaism changed, but that does not necessitate that those changes were taken from Zoroastrianism, or indeed that Judaism was "recreated". If you want to argue that Judaism as a religion kicked off in about 539BC feel free.
 
 
grant
17:54 / 08.07.03
There's a thread on the Yezidi/Yazidi here. The third post down has a great link -- follow it.

In our translations of the Old Testament, there's often a confusion or conflation between the Lord Himself (YHWH) and an "angel of the Lord" -- for instance, Jacob wrestles with either God or else God's angel... or else God is, in some way, the same thing as God's angel, a view which jibes with my personal theology.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
19:37 / 08.07.03
grant: For instance, Jacob wrestles with either God or else God's angel

Or, on a similar note, there's Zagzagel, who appeared to Moses as a burning bush. Unless of course the bush was God. But mortals never here the voice of God. So maybe it was Metatron. And on and on...

Haus, it's not that important. I'm not going to argue when exactly modern Judaism began, when ancient Hebrew began, or when anything in between began. In my opinion, most of the good verse evil that is now so prominent in Hebrew-originating religions comes from the Persian occupation 2500 years ago. That's all.
 
 
cusm
20:12 / 08.07.03
Actually, I thought Lucifer was a greek renaming of Urial/Ariel, "Light of God." Linguisticly, it fits.

As for Zorastrianism, its mainly the concepts of monothestic duality that crept in when the Hebrews decided to dedicate themselves to the One God Yahwe. More of Babalyonian cosmology got sucked into the Hebrew genesis than anything else, that being where many of the tribes of Israel were living at the time. Though a lot of angels did creep in for Zorastrianism, and some prophesies. Really though, its the later christians that imported large swaths of it into the gospels. You know, the whole Mithras thing... I forget which apostle was a big Mithrite, either Peter or John, but that where more of it crept in later. Regardless, its still largely Zoraster we can thank for all the trouble of worrying over The Enemy, resulting in the demonizing of pagan gods under the fearful title of the demiurge/Satan. The old testiment isn't big on Satan much. Mostly squashing pagan gods and some prophesies of doom. That all came with the Christian Redux. Take that mess all away, and most demons are still just pagan gods given a bad rep...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:15 / 08.07.03
I don't know - for example there's the bit in Isiah about God having created all things, good and evil - that sounds like a critique of Zoroastrianism. Likewise, the yetzer tov and the yetzer hara (sp?) aren't exaclty the same as Zoroastrian dualism...

I'd say your viewpoint is partially correct, but to say "that's all" is unwise in the extreme, in the history of religion or, indeed, anywhere else.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:22 / 08.07.03
Actually, I thought Lucifer was a greek renaming of Urial/Ariel, "Light of God." Linguisticly, it fits.

Except, of course, in the sense that Lucifer isn't a Greek word. Otherwise, it's linguistically perfect.

Maybe we should try discussing this without mentioning history or linguistics....
 
 
Kiss My Apocalips
08:06 / 09.07.03
One last word on the historical discussion: I repeat myself, you´ll have to look at pre-babylonian Sumer. That´s were it all started.

Of course there are zillions of different ways to look at "angels". Like, in which way are they perceived TODAY?
Nowadays angels are mostly depicted as chuppy faced, harp-plucking and dove-winged little buggers on fancy postcards. Or, there´s the whole guardian angel thing in certain esoteric circles. Talk about the "holy guardian angel" of Dr.John Dee and Edward Kelley. And of course there´s a rather unholy output by the brilliant band Coil called "How to destroy angels", a recording of a ritual designed to invoke male sexual energy.
 
 
Quantum
12:28 / 09.07.03
According to the Yezidiz, God created 7 angels, one for each day of the week, Spyder
Do you know the other six, or any correspondences between days and angels? (thanks btw)

Ta Grant, I missed that thread. There was an article on them in the Grauniad at a similar time which probably shared a lot with the NY Times article, that was where I heard of them.

The modern conception of angels is fragmented and contradictory, but from a magickal point of view they are just another flavour of spirit, to be contrasted with elementals, naturae etc. The denizens of the Otherworld manifest in many ways.
I read a (crap) book once which was about angels and demons fighting in a small town, with the demons corrupting and the angels inspiring the locals, who were unaware of their influence- which not only denies human free will but makes Angels just nice ghosts with wings. A typical example of modern angels.

I like the soldiers of God approach, where the angel has one wing dipped in blood, a la Prophecy. If I was a Christian that's what I'd opt for, Old Testament slaying-all-the-firstborn kickass flying demon-smashing warriors with flaming swords.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
13:06 / 09.07.03
Q, here are the Yezidiz angels and the days they correspond with. (written in the old world names for days, just because I like doing that)
Son's day, 'Azazil or Melek Ta'us.
Moon day, Darda'il or Sheikh Hasan.
True day, Israfil, or Sheikh Shams.
Woden's day, JIbra'il or Sheikh Abu Bekr.
Thor's day, 'Azra'el or Sajadin.
Frey's day, Shemna'il or Nasiru'd-Din.
Sater's day, Nura'il.

Nowadays, there are angels for every day, month, day of the week, it's outtlandish. However, the original, based on some jewish text that I don't have a date for, given an angel for each day of the week. I don't have that list with me, but I can get it and post it here later today.

cusm:Actually, I thought Lucifer was a greek renaming of Urial/Ariel, "Light of God." Linguisticly, it fits.

There's another problem with this, other then the one Haus pointed out. Uriel's title, "Light of God", and Lucifer's, "the Light Bringer", don't refer to the same light at all. Lucifer is the angel of enlightenment, in a knowledge and wisdom sense. Uriel's title has also been interpereted as "Fire of God". He is the Regent of the Sun, and the Flame of God, where as Lucifer believes humanitity should be allowed information such as the angels have. (the whole reason for that Fall buisness)
 
 
Quantum
13:52 / 09.07.03
Ta Spyder that's great (but shurely Sun's day, Tyr's day, Saturn's day?)
Isn't Gabriel Archangel of Fire? (maybe In Nomine was wrong :-))
I understood the significance of light to represent consciousness in some explanations, but enlightenment effectively means the same innit. The Greeks used Fire and Prometheus to illustrate the same myth just with different symbols (IMO)
 
 
grant
14:42 / 09.07.03
Uriel's the one guarding the gates of Eden with a flaming sword.

According to this angelology site, he's over repentance and salvation, and his name means: God is my Light; or God is Light; or Radiation of God; or God is the radiating principle of Light; or Fire of God.

The same site puts the messenger Gabriel over water, and the moon, and says that he's the one who wiped out the Watchers and maybe wrestled with Jacob. It also says his name means "Man of God" or "God Has Shown Himself Mightily."

There's a slightly different account at the Jewish Encyclopedia, which seems eager to dismiss the "fire of God" translation of Uriel's name as a Zoroastrian add-on, and places Gabriel over fire in general (and Uriel over the warmth of winter days), as well as over water.

Both sources say Gabriel is a teacher, and is almost Promethean in that regard... teaching humans how to make things or how to speak.
 
 
cusm
16:58 / 09.07.03
I read a (crap) book once which was about angels and demons fighting in a small town

This Present Darkness, Frank Pereti. Fun, but nearly intolerable for its fundie overtones.

I read elsewhere that Gabriel was "Strength of God". In Islam he is the angel of revelation. The thing is, the jobs of the various angels shifted about quite a bit historically, as you have Zorastrian, Jewish, and Islamic scriptures mentioning them, and a host of apocryphal references flesh them out in different ways. Modern kabalistic uses of them are a fine example of this as well. Another fine example is Michael ("Who Is Like God") who in Islam is the angel of Nature, in Judiam is in battle with Samiel (angel of destruction, ruler of hell and classic satan figure), and is associated with Fire, even though the Fire of God is Uriel (oor being the root of fire, Aur meaning more light). Yet Urial somehow sits in the corner of earth in some modern interpretations, probably from his confusion with the angel of death (Azreal, who should be in West though Gabriel is usually called there instead), which I believe is due to his appearance in Exodus what with the whole killing of firstborn sons and all. Though that might be a misattribution as well.

Its a bloody mess, it is.

Here's some references showing how much the list of the 7 archangels mutated:

Enoch I: Uriel, Raphael, Raguel, Michael, Zerachiel, Gabriel, and Remiel

Enoch III: Mikael, Gabriel, Shatqiel, Baradiel, Shachaqiel, Baraqiel, Sidriel

Testament of Solomon: Mikael, Gabriel, Uriel, Sabrael, Arael, Iaoth, Adonaei

Christian Gnostics: Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Barachiel, Sealtiel, Jehudiel Pope

Gregory the Great: Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Simiel, Orifiel, Zachariel

Pseudo-Dionysians: Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Chamuel, Jophiel, Zadkiel

There's more, but that's enough googling for today. Thogh I did catch a reference that it was in Geonic Lore that Uriel was replaced by Samiel, which is likely cause for later muddling between Light of God and Light Bringer.
 
  

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