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Berlusconi and Godwin

 
 
Lurid Archive
13:21 / 03.07.03
From the Guardian.

The Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, will today speak to the German chancellor, Gerhard Schröder, who has demanded an apology after Mr Berlusconi told a German MEP that he should play a Nazi concentration camp guard in a film.

I've some interest in Italian politics, and this is perhaps a minor event given Berlusconi's history. So while I can't say that I swell with national pride when I read this kind of thing, I wonder if it is actually quite unimportant?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:51 / 03.07.03
No, it's important. There are several layers of why, however.

The first is that it's a bad thing for elected officials of different countries to be wantonly insulting to one another. You don't want your representatives taking to fisticuffs over name-calling when the real issue is on paper and international.

The second is that this is unhelpful in the longer term, because Berlusconi's evident contempt here is going to make life difficult for the EU to function as it should. The President's job is to create compromise, not provoke rows. On the other hand, this outburst is bringing to a head the confrontation between the unelected apparat and the EU Parilament, and that's a confrontation which may need to happen - so maybe this will be an important, if unintended, contribution to EU structure.

The third question is how smart Berlusconi is. His stint as president has been anticipated with something approaching concern. Is he setting this up as a day one row, from which he can only 'improve'?
 
 
sleazenation
14:23 / 03.07.03
I am in two minds about this... on the one hand i think in many ways the best reply is to suggest a reenactment of Il Duce's execution with perhaps a starring role for Belusconi, but that really does no one any favors and further cheapens political discourse. I'm pretty sure that Belusconi knew exactly what he was saying and the effect it might have, but what is the best way to deal with this verhmently anti-european media baron-cum politician currently on trial for corruption?
 
 
grant
14:31 / 03.07.03
I'm pretty sure Berlusconi was speaking off the cuff. The unfortunate thing is that he was doing it with his "Head of the EU" hat on. And pretty much right off the bat.

What's worse is that later in the day, as I heard it, he claimed he was "being ironic" when he made the comments. Which is just wrong, y'know.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:18 / 03.07.03
Now, what would be ironic would be if Germany and Italy went to war over who found the word "Nazi" the most offensive.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:20 / 03.07.03
(Sorry... hit reply before I'd finished).

I think its offensiveness was compounded by the fact that the implication was (I think the German guy was Jewish) that he should be a Kapo (Jews who helped the Nazis in the death camps).
 
 
Nematode
20:54 / 04.07.03
Heard him on radio 4 tonight apologising for.......... the fact that his remarks had been misunderstood by other people. Well thanks.
 
 
Not Here Still
16:43 / 05.07.03
"Berlusconi did well to react to the insolent man who insulted him, the Italian government, its ministers, and all of us. He did excellently, in his own way, with his own style and in his own time."


At leat one paper in Italy thinks Berlusconi did well. Pop quiz: who owns it?
 
 
nedrichards is confused
21:23 / 05.07.03
There's a newspaper in Italy, Pop Quiz! Who owns it? He probably even owns the Communist newspapers these days.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:13 / 06.07.03
So, on the basis of Godwin's, does this mean that we get to ignore the EU for the next 5months and three weeks? That'll please The Daily Mail
 
 
Jub
06:44 / 07.07.03
Apparently Pat Cox, the Irish president of the Parliament, said "Silvio, what the fuck have you done?" straight after his Nazi comment.

The thing that grates me about Berlusconi's comments is, I think they were a calculated attempt to be controversial... not just an off the cuff comment. Not that it would've been okay had they been impromptu.
 
 
Lurid Archive
07:51 / 07.07.03
On the other hand, this outburst is bringing to a head the confrontation between the unelected apparat and the EU Parilament, and that's a confrontation which may need to happen - Nick

I hadn't considered that, but it feels like an overly optimistic reading of the situation. I hope I am wrong, as the institutions of EU desperately need an overhaul.

Also, I can't quite believe that Berlusconi made the remarks calculatedly. He is, after all, an arrogant man who is used to controlling his national media outlets. It is possible that he doesn't have any diplomatic skills.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
16:01 / 07.07.03
You don't want your representatives taking to fisticuffs over name-calling...

Well, no. But then again, maybe.

Aztec society was very structured and hierarchical. They made war continually but did so in a stylised form: that of the "Flower War", where only a few of the nobility would actually fight. Trained up for the purpose and in pairs sworn to die together, only members of the leading classes would do battle, after trading insults and accompanied by musical instruments playing. Battle would be short and the weaker side would surrender and be taken prisoner, to be sacrificed later to the gods.

This allowed the majority of society to continue in peace, with minimal damage to the social fabric. Sounds a bit like Jeux Sans Frontières directed by Sam Raimi. Bush and Saddam, for example, could have squared up, with a select retinue drawn from the privileged classes, and settled their argument quickly, without the deaths of thousands of innocent Iraqis.

It is also argued that this system allowed something analogous to the neverending War With Eurasia or an ongoing Wag The Dog scenario. That suggests it could sit comfortably in our contemporary international politics.

Of course, Berlusconi's rudeness seemed to serve no useful purpose and it seems unlikely that he would be capable of altruistic behaviour to promote the common weal.
 
 
Nematode
16:07 / 08.07.03
i seem to recall Mullah Omar challenging Tony Blair to a kalashnikov duel. I felt at the time that the idea had its merits and I'm glad to discover that I am not alone.
 
  
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